(06-13-2014 06:39 AM)kellernr Wrote:  They just need to dismantle the the BIG 12 and make their 4 16 team power conferences and get it over with. Add UConn the ACC and drop TCU out of the P4. Just moved teams around without looking at a map so not sure if some would work with travel distances.

ACC
Boston College
Clemson
Duke
Florida St
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Miami (FL)
NC State
North Carolina
Pitt
Syracuse
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
West Virginia
Uconn

B1G
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan St
Minnesota
Nebraska
Northwestern
Ohio St
Penn St
Purdue
Rutgers
Wisconsin
Kansas
Texas


PAC-12
Arizona
Arizona St
California
Colorado
Oregon
Oregon St
Stanford
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington
Washington St
Iowa St
Kansas St
Oklahoma
Oklahoma St


SEC
Alabama
Arkansas
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
LSU
Mississippi St
Missouri
Ole Miss
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas A&M
Vanderbilt
Baylor
Texas Tech

Half of those teams don't belong in there over Ucf etc


Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

(06-13-2014 07:16 AM)Bull Wrote:  

(06-12-2014 09:14 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(06-12-2014 06:24 PM)Bull Wrote:  BAM!!!!!

Cue the usual too-much-time-on-their-hands internet trolls to remind us we're NOT a 'Power' conference in 3... 2... 1...

Hey, what's on that card is MY metric for defining Power. The ancillary things like TV $$ and bowls WILL improve shortly if we keep performing like this... no doubt.

How will they "improve shortly"?

ESPN is under no pressure to re-work our contract and the P5 are trying the best to separate. We don't have an access bowl anchor bowl nor do we enjoy a huge TV contract. Plus when our best teams (USF included) would love nothing more than to join a P5 conference....I just don't see a scenario where either ESPN is going to suddenly give us a $20-million per team contract....or Mike Slive and Jim Delany are going to say "welcome to the club Mr. Aresco".

Call me cynical but I am just being realistic. Instead I am going to enjoy each season for the action on the field.... and not worry about the unrealistic notion of somehow attaining power conference status.

4 It's not that we are not deserving....but rather that the system is rigged against those not in a p5 conference. For me it's about watching football...instead of watching twitter for the latest B12 expansion rumor.

Come on Cyber, I didn't say we'd get 20 million per team. I said they would improve. We (purposefully) signed a very short deal with ESPN, and it *does* have a look in renegotiate window coming up soon. ESPN will up the $$ if we trade for a longer deal, which benefits ESPN. This happens all the time. Most of us generally agree we signed that deal in the weakest position of any conference in history and ended up undervalued. If we continue to perform, and we're willing to sign longer term, we'll get 'more' per team. Improvement.

The bowl cycle is short enough, and the P5 have oversubscribed themselves... With continued performance, great exposure, more TV $$ (by then), I fully expect an improved bowl position next round.

This may all get juiced even a bit better if BYU, etc. join. And that's starting to look pretty likely, provided we don't get raided soon, which also appears likely.

I realize we won't become a 'widely accepted' power conference, but I fully expect we'll become the established #6, get enough $$ to at least stay within striking distance of the big boys. Improvement.

Sorry buddy, but if you want contract bowl slot and 20 million per... yeah, I agree it's rigged to ensure we will never get that.

AAC teams keep winning, and Aresco keep making these graphics.

We can't "earn" our way into P5 status based on the current system where the rules keep being changed to make it them unobtainable to half of Division IA. So with that being said if we can't become a true power conference regardless of what we do on the field we are not going to be able to sell our product as such and consequently have no leverage to get a contract anywhere close to the money to compete at the same level as P5 schools.

BTW, define striking distance. Even if we get a bump to $10-million/ team we are syptill way behind the lowest paid P5 conference and will likely have several million dollars higher overhead if the COA measures are instituted.

The only way to stay In the game is via legislative intervention or a legal challenge. In the interim play the best football we can and give up the notion that the conference Asa whole can get elevated to major conference status and comparable financial resources.

(06-13-2014 03:04 PM)First Mate Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 07:57 AM)mac6115cd Wrote:  

(06-12-2014 06:20 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  $$$$$$$ = Power Conference

You may not be happy USF is in the AAC, but you need to realize that you're going to be here for a long time - so you should make the most of it.

Support your team and this conference. We may never reach the $20M/year mark, but we don't have to - we just need to maximize what we get, continue to win and negotiate for more when the time comes.

USF is lucky to be in this league. When they joined the Big East they had never even won a bowl game. They should not feel entitled at all. TV market got them in a BCS conference, not winning on the field. Pure and simple.

People need to remember where they came from

Nice to see that petty ECU pettiness bubbling to the surface again.

One, my post had nothing to do with USF but rather the rather obvious observation that the game has become all about money instead of action on the field. Else Rutgers and Maryland would not be getting ready to receive $40-million per year for showing up since neither of those programs have accomplished anything greater than USF despite over 120 year head start in fielding a football program. I laugh how SOME ECU fans still b!tch and whine about USF but have no problems with historically inept Rutgers, Marylands and all the other P5 leaches. USF is experiencing its first down cycle ever but it did more in its first 17 years of football than some programs with decades of futility.

Secondly, USF is entitled to be in this league just as much as anybody else. If ECU had a problem or still upset of getting passed over by USF then you shouldn't have lost your first four games against an brand new program or let yourself get demolished as our first bowl game victory.

I like ECU as conference member but clueless fans like you just make look small, uninformed and petty.....and just wastes everyone's time with post like yours. Good job....

(06-13-2014 01:41 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 01:23 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Two things. One, a true power conference has anchor teams. We don't and never will. Second point. While we may never be a true power conference (no anchor programs), we can be similar to a power conference if our overall average conference wide attendance mimics a power conference. If we can get our average attendance to between 40-50K, we will have a league that can probably attain 2 or 3 of your above bullet points (#2, #3, and possibly even #4). So for us, the key is improving attendance across the board. Winning will help--but the attendance numbers have to improve significantly for us to get where we want to be.

Unfortunately, the P5 will likely gobble up any potential anchor team before they can become an anchor.

IMO, the 50K attendance mark will need to be reached in order to become a power. Most P5 schools have at least 50K attendance. There are some exceptions, like TCU, Utah, and Oregon St. (45K capacity) and Washington St. (32K capacity). But they have Texas (100K), Oklahoma (82K) and USC (93K) and UCLA (92K) to bring the average way up.

This means that SMU (32K), Navy (34K), Cincy (35K), Tulsa (35K), UConn and Houston (40K), UCF (45K), and ECU (50K) are either at maximum capacity or expand their stadiums and some schools in the conference are averaging 60+ per game. Right now, Tulane, Temple, USF, and Memphis have 60K+ capacity.

you mean you re counting schools that pay rent to play in NFL stadiums as those schools "capacities"??? Do you think that's the same as BYU's stadium capacity?

(06-13-2014 12:48 PM)FrancisDrake Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 11:53 AM)chrisRU Wrote:  What makes a power conference?
1) A commissioner who can say with a straight face that the conference is not completely powerless to having teams picked off if a P5 comes calling.
2) A contract bowl.
3) A $$$$ TV contract.
4) A solid GOR.

Has nothing to do with what happens on the field. Conferences have NEVER been formed on the basis of winning and losing and only for the mutual (usually financial) benefit of member institutions.

I would say that a GOR actually does just the opposite. If you have a GOR its bc you were worried you would lose a team or three. The SEC doesn't have a GOR, they don't need one. That's power.

My point was around stability. The ACC is secure for the foreseeable future. The "non-P5" conferences are less secure.

(06-13-2014 04:50 PM)Knightbengal Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 06:39 AM)kellernr Wrote:  They just need to dismantle the the BIG 12 and make their 4 16 team power conferences and get it over with. Add UConn the ACC and drop TCU out of the P4. Just moved teams around without looking at a map so not sure if some would work with travel distances.

ACC
Boston College
Clemson
Duke
Florida St
Georgia Tech
Louisville
Miami (FL)
NC State
North Carolina
Pitt
Syracuse
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
West Virginia
Uconn

B1G
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan St
Minnesota
Nebraska
Northwestern
Ohio St
Penn St
Purdue
Rutgers
Wisconsin
Kansas
Texas


PAC-12
Arizona
Arizona St
California
Colorado
Oregon
Oregon St
Stanford
UCLA
USC
Utah
Washington
Washington St
Iowa St
Kansas St
Oklahoma
Oklahoma St


SEC
Alabama
Arkansas
Auburn
Florida
Georgia
Kentucky
LSU
Mississippi St
Missouri
Ole Miss
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas A&M
Vanderbilt
Baylor
Texas Tech

Half of those teams don't belong in there over Ucf etc


Posted from my mobile device using the CSNbbs App

never said who does/doesn't deserve it. I was just showing that if they really wanted 4 Conferences with 16 teams each they could do it without having to add any schools from the G5 conferences. They have 64 teams between the 5 conf. I only threw UConn in there because of the men's and women's BBall teams.

(06-13-2014 02:12 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  Let's face it. What truly makes the Power 5 members more worthy, at least in their eyes, is budget and support. If the AAC schools increased their fanbases and the fanbases in turn supported the schools better financially, there wouldn't be any question.

This.... exactly this.

(06-16-2014 09:49 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 02:12 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  Let's face it. What truly makes the Power 5 members more worthy, at least in their eyes, is budget and support. If the AAC schools increased their fanbases and the fanbases in turn supported the schools better financially, there wouldn't be any question.

This.... exactly this.

Actually you only need a couple to do that. A good portion of the AAC already has fan support that eclipses Wake Forest, Virginia, Northwestern, Illinois, Minnesota, Mississippi State, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa State, TCU, and on and on.

To be a Power conference, you need a couple schools that are on the Texas, Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, level in fan bases... the rest of the conference can be MAC or Sun Belt level.

(06-13-2014 06:10 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  you mean you re counting schools that pay rent to play in NFL stadiums as those schools "capacities"??? Do you think that's the same as BYU's stadium capacity?

Can't 70K fans show up for a Temple game or 60K+ fans show up to a USF game? Does something happen to the venues when college teams play to reduce their capacity? (Serious question).

Not sure the NFL or BYU have anything to do with the American schools increasing home game attendance.

(06-13-2014 05:46 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 03:04 PM)First Mate Wrote:  

(06-13-2014 07:57 AM)mac6115cd Wrote:  

(06-12-2014 06:20 PM)CyberBull Wrote:  $$$$$$$ = Power Conference

You may not be happy USF is in the AAC, but you need to realize that you're going to be here for a long time - so you should make the most of it.

Support your team and this conference. We may never reach the $20M/year mark, but we don't have to - we just need to maximize what we get, continue to win and negotiate for more when the time comes.

USF is lucky to be in this league. When they joined the Big East they had never even won a bowl game. They should not feel entitled at all. TV market got them in a BCS conference, not winning on the field. Pure and simple.

People need to remember where they came from

Nice to see that petty ECU pettiness bubbling to the surface again.

One, my post had nothing to do with USF but rather the rather obvious observation that the game has become all about money instead of action on the field. Else Rutgers and Maryland would not be getting ready to receive $40-million per year for showing up since neither of those programs have accomplished anything greater than USF despite over 120 year head start in fielding a football program. I laugh how SOME ECU fans still b!tch and whine about USF but have no problems with historically inept Rutgers, Marylands and all the other P5 leaches. USF is experiencing its first down cycle ever but it did more in its first 17 years of football than some programs with decades of futility.

Secondly, USF is entitled to be in this league just as much as anybody else. If ECU had a problem or still upset of getting passed over by USF then you shouldn't have lost your first four games against an brand new program or let yourself get demolished as our first bowl game victory.

I like ECU as conference member but clueless fans like you just make look small, uninformed and petty.....and just wastes everyone's time with post like yours. Good job....

Great posts, CyberBull. You are dominating this discussion with your logic and facts.

(06-16-2014 10:18 AM)SublimeKnight Wrote:  Actually you only need a couple to do that. A good portion of the AAC already has fan support that eclipses Wake Forest, Virginia, Northwestern, Illinois, Minnesota, Mississippi State, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa State, TCU, and on and on.

To be a Power conference, you need a couple schools that are on the Texas, Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, level in fan bases... the rest of the conference can be MAC or Sun Belt level.

You've overstated you're point. For instance, Missouri and Arkansas average more than 60K home game attendance. Iowa St. and Mississippi St. are at 55K, Illinois, Minnesota, and Virginia are at about 45K. All of those lesser P5 schools well exceed the best of the American (except ECU at 47K).

Wake Forest, Northwestern, Boston College, Duke, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, and Washington St., the very dregs of the P5, average between 25-39K. About on par with the average American schools.

In 2013, the average PAC 12 school had 53K in attendance and the average ACC school had 49K in attendance. THAT is where the American needs to aim. And they don't get there by just a couple of schools hitting 60-70K. They need 2 or 3 schools at 60K+ and most of the rest of the league around 40K+. Which means nearly full capacity for most American stadiums.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_r...e/2013.pdf

(06-16-2014 10:40 AM)YNot Wrote:  

(06-16-2014 10:18 AM)SublimeKnight Wrote:  Actually you only need a couple to do that. A good portion of the AAC already has fan support that eclipses Wake Forest, Virginia, Northwestern, Illinois, Minnesota, Mississippi State, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa State, TCU, and on and on.

To be a Power conference, you need a couple schools that are on the Texas, Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, level in fan bases... the rest of the conference can be MAC or Sun Belt level.

You've overstated you're point. For instance, Missouri and Arkansas average more than 60K home game attendance. Iowa St. and Mississippi St. are at 55K, Illinois, Minnesota, and Virginia are at about 45K. All of those lesser P5 schools well exceed the best of the American (except ECU at 47K).

Wake Forest, Northwestern, Boston College, Duke, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, and Washington St., the very dregs of the P5, average between 25-39K. About on par with the average American schools.

In 2013, the average PAC 12 school had 53K in attendance and the average ACC school had 49K in attendance. THAT is where the American needs to aim. And they don't get there by just a couple of schools hitting 60-70K. They need 2 or 3 schools at 60K+ and most of the rest of the league around 40K+. Which means nearly full capacity for most American stadiums.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_r...e/2013.pdf

Exactly. A "good portion of the AAC... eclipses"....? Only one school in the AAC averages over 45K in attendance per football game.

The "dregs of the P5" are the worst case scenarios the bowls are looking at. In the AAC they're weighing the possibility of drawing SMU, Tulane and Temple.... and best case drawing ECU who is in line with the P5 dregs.

It ain't rocket science folks. There's a good reason we're not lumped in with the Power 5.

(06-16-2014 10:40 AM)YNot Wrote:  

(06-16-2014 10:18 AM)SublimeKnight Wrote:  Actually you only need a couple to do that. A good portion of the AAC already has fan support that eclipses Wake Forest, Virginia, Northwestern, Illinois, Minnesota, Mississippi State, Arkansas, Missouri, Iowa State, TCU, and on and on.

To be a Power conference, you need a couple schools that are on the Texas, Ohio State, Clemson, Alabama, level in fan bases... the rest of the conference can be MAC or Sun Belt level.

You've overstated you're point. For instance, Missouri and Arkansas average more than 60K home game attendance. Iowa St. and Mississippi St. are at 55K, Illinois, Minnesota, and Virginia are at about 45K. All of those lesser P5 schools well exceed the best of the American (except ECU at 47K).

Wake Forest, Northwestern, Boston College, Duke, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, and Washington St., the very dregs of the P5, average between 25-39K. About on par with the average American schools.

In 2013, the average PAC 12 school had 53K in attendance and the average ACC school had 49K in attendance. THAT is where the American needs to aim. And they don't get there by just a couple of schools hitting 60-70K. They need 2 or 3 schools at 60K+ and most of the rest of the league around 40K+. Which means nearly full capacity for most American stadiums.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_r...e/2013.pdf

I live in NC and Duke and Wake are lucky to have 20k, 25k on a good day at most of their games. They are reporting tickets sold prob which is higher. I've been to games at both places and the crowds are weak.

Many P5 schools like these two ride the coat tails of the "good ole boy" system. There are 15-20 schools in the P5 who are lesser programs to some of the outsiders but they get grandfathered into the corrupt system. It's a joke that Wake and Duke are considered power teams in football and ECU is not.

All we want is a shot but the P5 will do whatever they can to keep it from happening.

(06-12-2014 09:56 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  To answer the question in the title of the thread..........ESPiN and the acolytes on the internets deeming us so will make us a power conference. Also, securing a "contract" bowl will do the trick. The $$$$ that people are gripping about will most assuredly follow all of the above.


Winning has ZERO effect on the AAC becoming a power conference. None.

I don't think that these two statements are mutually exclusive. It's really a cause and effect issue. If we (as a collective conference) continue to win and continue to bolster credentials then that in conjunction with the increased exposure will continue to result in an increase in desire for the product/ commodity that we provide as a conference (TV appeal).

It's all about the ratings and over all perceptions about conference strength. Accordingly, the more our conference scores big wins against P5 programs on Nat'l TV the more the talking heads will be discussing our merits and the more sought after our TV appeal becomes. Winning actually has a lot to do with it. It always has and always will.

America loves a winner & more importantly, America loves an underdog. Our conference is fortunate to be in this limbo about weather our merits are worthy and deserving of "power" conference status. The term power is intrinsically ambiguous. Therefore, it is our duty as a collective conference to define ourselves. The best way to do this is to continue to over achieve and become the next great "American" rags to riches story.

The perpetual bottom line: Continue to win & you're in.

(06-16-2014 10:40 AM)YNot Wrote:  Wake Forest, Northwestern, Boston College, Duke, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, and Washington St., the very dregs of the P5, average between 25-39K. About on par with the average American schools.

I wonder how many of those "fans" are actually there to see their opponents. The bottom feeders in those conferences benefit immensely through the association with the bigger fanbases at the top of the conference. Baylor was outdrawn by visiting fans in their own stadium for YEARS.

I remember a particular game that Nebraska painted that stadium red one year.

http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?...=204824831



"Nebraska had a home-field-like advantage with Husker fans at Floyd Casey Stadium in Waco."

(06-16-2014 11:01 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  It ain't rocket science folks.

It's a lot more complex than counting fans.

Put Houston in the Big 12 and Baylor in the AAC and do a recount.

That being said, attendance will build in the AAC once its allowed to grow, with the newfound exposure and success that most AAC fans are now experiencing.

(06-16-2014 11:08 AM)First Mate Wrote:  I live in NC and Duke and Wake are lucky to have 20k, 25k on a good day at most of their games. They are reporting tickets sold prob which is higher. I've been to games at both places and the crowds are weak.

Many P5 schools like these two ride the coat tails of the "good ole boy" system. There are 15-20 schools in the P5 who are lesser programs to some of the outsiders but they get grandfathered into the corrupt system. It's a joke that Wake and Duke are considered power teams in football and ECU is not.

All we want is a shot but the P5 will do whatever they can to keep it from happening.

Good perspective on over-reporting attendance based on tickets sold and not actual butts in the seats.

I think the part that is so aggravating is to see schools like Wake Forest and Washington State that are part of the "in" crowd. If the P5 were starting over afresh, there's no way that consistently underwhelming teams in Pullman, Washington or the fourth team in the Raleigh-Durham market get invited.

As far as Duke, at least they have an elite basketball program and had a decent 2013 season to bolster their argument to be included.

The good news for the American is that there is plenty of untapped potential. A few seasons with 2-3 American teams in the top-25 and improved attendance and solid TV ratings will help the American improve its currently perceived value.

(06-16-2014 01:21 PM)YNot Wrote:  

(06-16-2014 11:08 AM)First Mate Wrote:  I live in NC and Duke and Wake are lucky to have 20k, 25k on a good day at most of their games. They are reporting tickets sold prob which is higher. I've been to games at both places and the crowds are weak.

Many P5 schools like these two ride the coat tails of the "good ole boy" system. There are 15-20 schools in the P5 who are lesser programs to some of the outsiders but they get grandfathered into the corrupt system. It's a joke that Wake and Duke are considered power teams in football and ECU is not.

All we want is a shot but the P5 will do whatever they can to keep it from happening.

Good perspective on over-reporting attendance based on tickets sold and not actual butts in the seats.

I think the part that is so aggravating is to see schools like Wake Forest and Washington State that are part of the "in" crowd. If the P5 were starting over afresh, there's no way that consistently underwhelming teams in Pullman, Washington or the fourth team in the Raleigh-Durham market get invited.

As far as Duke, at least they have an elite basketball program and had a decent 2013 season to bolster their argument to be included.

The good news for the American is that there is plenty of untapped potential. A few seasons with 2-3 American teams in the top-25 and improved attendance and solid TV ratings will help the American improve its currently perceived value.

You're dead on.

The American is a new conference with alot of "old" teams - and some new ones. Time and on the field performance will raise the value of the conference - nothing else. We're in a much better position than the MWC, MAC, C-USA, etc. Every great conference has to start somewhere.

(06-16-2014 11:20 AM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  

(06-12-2014 09:56 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  To answer the question in the title of the thread..........ESPiN and the acolytes on the internets deeming us so will make us a power conference. Also, securing a "contract" bowl will do the trick. The $$$$ that people are gripping about will most assuredly follow all of the above.


Winning has ZERO effect on the AAC becoming a power conference. None.

I don't think that these two statements are mutually exclusive. It's really a cause and effect issue. If we (as a collective conference) continue to win and continue to bolster credentials then that in conjunction with the increased exposure will continue to result in an increase in desire for the product/ commodity that we provide as a conference (TV appeal).

It's all about the ratings and over all perceptions about conference strength. Accordingly, the more our conference scores big wins against P5 programs on Nat'l TV the more the talking heads will be discussing our merits and the more sought after our TV appeal becomes. Winning actually has a lot to do with it. It always has and always will.

Yes, winning certainly can impact on factors like brand value that end up giving a conference or team "power".

But, this typically takes a LONG time and requires LOTS of winning.

E.g., the only members of the real "power elite" that have been added in the past 30 years are FSU and Miami. And those schools had to win at a prodigious level to attain that. Both didn't just "win", they had to become dominant, national-title level programs to get in the elite club.

To think that AAC schools are going to be able to have the kind of success that FSU and Miami had from the mid-1980s, where just about every year they were in the top 10, the top 5, and spending time at #1, which is what it took to get them in the club, is just not realistic, is it?

I mean, look at all the success Boise had over the past 10 years, and they are still outside looking in.

The schools that did get promoted - the six Big East schools, for example - got in because they had built fan bases and national profiles despite not having anything like FSU/Miami levels of on field success. What did Rutgers and Syracuse ever win on the football field, at least in the last half-century?

So in all likelihood, to merit a P5 bid, AAC schools will have to develop those fan bases without that kind of winning.

(06-16-2014 12:58 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(06-16-2014 10:40 AM)YNot Wrote:  Wake Forest, Northwestern, Boston College, Duke, Syracuse, Vanderbilt, and Washington St., the very dregs of the P5, average between 25-39K. About on par with the average American schools.

I wonder how many of those "fans" are actually there to see their opponents. The bottom feeders in those conferences benefit immensely through the association with the bigger fanbases at the top of the conference. Baylor was outdrawn by visiting fans in their own stadium for YEARS.

I remember a particular game that Nebraska painted that stadium red one year.

http://www.huskers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?...=204824831



"Nebraska had a home-field-like advantage with Husker fans at Floyd Casey Stadium in Waco."

Just going to leave this here...zoom in to see how much of that red is actually empty seats.

Don't mean to hijack...it was just a very fun away game.
Their band tried....very hard.