(02-24-2014 02:13 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I know they play in a weak conference but they haven't really even been challenged this year except a couple of games.

And this appears to not be an anomaly. They have averaged 28 wins per year over the past five years running and they're not even close to being done yet this season.

I can understand some of the big city schools going on a run like this, but how in the world is a school like Wichita St pulling this off??

And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall. I've seen some questionable hires over the last two or three years while Marshall has put up some unreal numbers and seemingly is passed over.

Up until Mark Turgeon got there Wichita was pretty much just like us pre-Kermit's turnaround, which is average to below average. Is what's happening at Wichita as simple as just hiring the right coach proving that you can win anywhere with the right person running the show??

CUSA is weaker than the MVC. And Wichita has more b-ball creed than MTSU will ever have.

(02-24-2014 04:19 PM)MUsince96 Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 04:06 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 03:59 PM)MUsince96 Wrote:  Grabbing a combination of Wichita State, VCU or St. Louis would be a coup.

VCU doesn't have football so they are a good fit in the A-10, the 6th best RPI conference. They are not coming to C-USA.

St Louis doesn't have football so they are a good fit in the A-10, the 6th best RPI conference. They would love to go to the Big East and that could happen. They are not coming to C-USA.

Whether they would or wouldn't isn't completely known. I'm just saying if we wanted to have a hybrid conference again, adding those teams would be a coup.

It is known and they ain't coming. Better alternatives for basketball homes than CUSA.

(02-25-2014 12:12 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 02:13 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I know they play in a weak conference but they haven't really even been challenged this year except a couple of games.

And this appears to not be an anomaly. They have averaged 28 wins per year over the past five years running and they're not even close to being done yet this season.

I can understand some of the big city schools going on a run like this, but how in the world is a school like Wichita St pulling this off??

And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall. I've seen some questionable hires over the last two or three years while Marshall has put up some unreal numbers and seemingly is passed over.

Up until Mark Turgeon got there Wichita was pretty much just like us pre-Kermit's turnaround, which is average to below average. Is what's happening at Wichita as simple as just hiring the right coach proving that you can win anywhere with the right person running the show??

CUSA is weaker than the MVC. And Wichita has more b-ball creed than MTSU will ever have.

That's debatable. There's not much difference between the RPI 11-13 conferences.

"Ever" is a long time. Maybe you should've said for the foreseeable future.

You people are delusional if you think Wichita State plays in a weak basketball conference. They have a great basketball tradition you would love for your school to have.

(02-25-2014 12:12 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 02:13 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I know they play in a weak conference but they haven't really even been challenged this year except a couple of games.

And this appears to not be an anomaly. They have averaged 28 wins per year over the past five years running and they're not even close to being done yet this season.

I can understand some of the big city schools going on a run like this, but how in the world is a school like Wichita St pulling this off??

And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall. I've seen some questionable hires over the last two or three years while Marshall has put up some unreal numbers and seemingly is passed over.

Up until Mark Turgeon got there Wichita was pretty much just like us pre-Kermit's turnaround, which is average to below average. Is what's happening at Wichita as simple as just hiring the right coach proving that you can win anywhere with the right person running the show??

CUSA is weaker than the MVC. And Wichita has more b-ball creed than MTSU will ever have.

Who peed in your cheerios this morning?

Let's review a couple of things. All those teams that were mentioned are gone. Neither of us are top 10 leagues this year and the MVC only has two top 100 teams. If it weren't for Wichita season the MVC would be the Sun Belt this year. Further, I didn't even make a comparison to C-USA much less state it's a better league.

Second, Wichita was a garbage basketball program until Turgeon got there. The only creed they've gotten occurred in the past 8-10 years for the most part. So, your vitriol post is unwarranted considering the whole point of this OP was to discuss and try to understand how a bad basketball program historically went to a legitimate contender.

And lastly, you need to check on your comprehension skills because nowhere did I say or even insintuate that our basketball program has accomplished anything. As a matter of fact the only analogy that I drew between our two programs is how we both sucked for so long.

Just for the record - including Turgeon's first season- WSU had a sterling .293 winning percentage from 1990 through 2001. They went 86-207 during that stretch and now they are the #2 team in the nation.

Anyone want to offer anymore a$$hole comments before we get back to the original purpose of posting this in the first place?

(02-25-2014 12:12 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 02:13 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I know they play in a weak conference but they haven't really even been challenged this year except a couple of games.

And this appears to not be an anomaly. They have averaged 28 wins per year over the past five years running and they're not even close to being done yet this season.

I can understand some of the big city schools going on a run like this, but how in the world is a school like Wichita St pulling this off??

And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall. I've seen some questionable hires over the last two or three years while Marshall has put up some unreal numbers and seemingly is passed over.

Up until Mark Turgeon got there Wichita was pretty much just like us pre-Kermit's turnaround, which is average to below average. Is what's happening at Wichita as simple as just hiring the right coach proving that you can win anywhere with the right person running the show??

CUSA is weaker than the MVC. And Wichita has more b-ball creed than MTSU will ever have.

The MVC is marginally better than C-USA in basketball. Remove this year's version of the Wichita St team from that conference and put them in C-USA and our conference would be rated better. I would not mind at all for C-USA to attempt to et Wichita St and Missouri St to join as non-football schools. If MSU wanted to upgrade to FBS at a later date, they would have the conference to do it in.

But the reality is C-USA is in a pretty good position to grow into a better basketball conference already. With USM, UTEP, LTU, MT, WKU, UAB already with solid programs that can be expected to do well most seasons and others that are very close to doing the same, we just need to get the bottom 3 or 4 to improve their programs and all of us to schedule smarter in the ooc games. This conference has a very good nucleus of basketball programs to reach the goal of being a multi-bid league every year and I don't think it's that far off.

(02-25-2014 10:30 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 12:12 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 02:13 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I know they play in a weak conference but they haven't really even been challenged this year except a couple of games.

And this appears to not be an anomaly. They have averaged 28 wins per year over the past five years running and they're not even close to being done yet this season.

I can understand some of the big city schools going on a run like this, but how in the world is a school like Wichita St pulling this off??

And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall. I've seen some questionable hires over the last two or three years while Marshall has put up some unreal numbers and seemingly is passed over.

Up until Mark Turgeon got there Wichita was pretty much just like us pre-Kermit's turnaround, which is average to below average. Is what's happening at Wichita as simple as just hiring the right coach proving that you can win anywhere with the right person running the show??

CUSA is weaker than the MVC. And Wichita has more b-ball creed than MTSU will ever have.

The MVC is marginally better than C-USA in basketball. Remove this year's version of the Wichita St team from that conference and put them in C-USA and our conference would be rated better. I would not mind at all for C-USA to attempt to et Wichita St and Missouri St to join as non-football schools. If MSU wanted to upgrade to FBS at a later date, they would have the conference to do it in.

But the reality is C-USA is in a pretty good position to grow into a better basketball conference already. With USM, UTEP, LTU, MT, WKU, UAB already with solid programs that can be expected to do well most seasons and others that are very close to doing the same, we just need to get the bottom 3 or 4 to improve their programs and all of us to schedule smarter in the ooc games. This conference has a very good nucleus of basketball programs to reach the goal of being a multi-bid league every year and I don't think it's that far off.

Don't forget about ODU and Charlotte too. They will be back.

We're not going to be very good next year. Over a two year period we will have lost 13 seniors and four or five contributors for other reasons. Too much to overcome. Next year will be a rebuilding year.

(02-25-2014 10:44 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 10:30 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 12:12 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 02:13 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I know they play in a weak conference but they haven't really even been challenged this year except a couple of games.

And this appears to not be an anomaly. They have averaged 28 wins per year over the past five years running and they're not even close to being done yet this season.

I can understand some of the big city schools going on a run like this, but how in the world is a school like Wichita St pulling this off??

And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall. I've seen some questionable hires over the last two or three years while Marshall has put up some unreal numbers and seemingly is passed over.

Up until Mark Turgeon got there Wichita was pretty much just like us pre-Kermit's turnaround, which is average to below average. Is what's happening at Wichita as simple as just hiring the right coach proving that you can win anywhere with the right person running the show??

CUSA is weaker than the MVC. And Wichita has more b-ball creed than MTSU will ever have.

The MVC is marginally better than C-USA in basketball. Remove this year's version of the Wichita St team from that conference and put them in C-USA and our conference would be rated better. I would not mind at all for C-USA to attempt to et Wichita St and Missouri St to join as non-football schools. If MSU wanted to upgrade to FBS at a later date, they would have the conference to do it in.

But the reality is C-USA is in a pretty good position to grow into a better basketball conference already. With USM, UTEP, LTU, MT, WKU, UAB already with solid programs that can be expected to do well most seasons and others that are very close to doing the same, we just need to get the bottom 3 or 4 to improve their programs and all of us to schedule smarter in the ooc games. This conference has a very good nucleus of basketball programs to reach the goal of being a multi-bid league every year and I don't think it's that far off.

Don't forget about ODU and Charlotte too. They will be back.

We're not going to be very good next year. Over a two year period we will have lost 13 seniors and four or five contributors for other reasons. Too much to overcome. Next year will be a rebuilding year.

So just in time for excuses when WKU beats you, haha...

(02-25-2014 08:41 AM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 12:12 AM)BamaScorpio69 Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 02:13 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  I know they play in a weak conference but they haven't really even been challenged this year except a couple of games.

And this appears to not be an anomaly. They have averaged 28 wins per year over the past five years running and they're not even close to being done yet this season.

I can understand some of the big city schools going on a run like this, but how in the world is a school like Wichita St pulling this off??

And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall. I've seen some questionable hires over the last two or three years while Marshall has put up some unreal numbers and seemingly is passed over.

Up until Mark Turgeon got there Wichita was pretty much just like us pre-Kermit's turnaround, which is average to below average. Is what's happening at Wichita as simple as just hiring the right coach proving that you can win anywhere with the right person running the show??

CUSA is weaker than the MVC. And Wichita has more b-ball creed than MTSU will ever have.

Who peed in your cheerios this morning?

Let's review a couple of things. All those teams that were mentioned are gone. Neither of us are top 10 leagues this year and the MVC only has two top 100 teams. If it weren't for Wichita season the MVC would be the Sun Belt this year. Further, I didn't even make a comparison to C-USA much less state it's a better league.

Second, Wichita was a garbage basketball program until Turgeon got there. The only creed they've gotten occurred in the past 8-10 years for the most part. So, your vitriol post is unwarranted considering the whole point of this OP was to discuss and try to understand how a bad basketball program historically went to a legitimate contender.

And lastly, you need to check on your comprehension skills because nowhere did I say or even insintuate that our basketball program has accomplished anything. As a matter of fact the only analogy that I drew between our two programs is how we both sucked for so long.

As a first page response below you said....your perception of Wichita's program and its resources is just flat out wrong.

They were very good in the 80's, making an Elite Eight, a couple other NCAAs, and would have possibly been in more if not for probation.

They are in a big city in a basketball-crazy state that is not oversaturated with major universities like Tennesee, so they have a ton of support. Even when they sucked, they were still drawing 6-8,000/game in the 90's.

They don't have a football program, so they pump their resources into football....which is why they have a nice arena that is only ten years old (http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticle.db...LID=613212) and pay Marshall a ton of money.

And regardless of whether or not the MVC is good now, the MVC had some awesome years which helped Wichita and other programs grow.

Wichita is not the typical mid-major. They are nothing like MTSU, USM, or any other school in C-USA except for maybe UTEP.

And good baseball history, though they haven't returned to the levels of the 80's and 90's.

First, I didn't make any comment, insinuations or perceptions about Wichita's resources. I wonder if some of you are even reading what I write. I'm going specifically off of results. Second, I don't know why you guys are trying to compare MT to Wichita. I'm pretty sure in the OP I made no mention of MT nor any comparison. But since you all want to make a comparison to either MT or C-USA....

From 1970 to 1989, Wichita St made five NCAA tournament appearances. During that same span, Middle Tennessee made six NCAA Tournament Apperances. Wichita had one more NCAA Tournament win than we did (theirs just all came in the same one).

The next decade plus they were atrocious as I pointed out previously - actually worse than Middle Tennessee and we were terrible during that period.

You can't talk about the past 10 years where they have been really good and ignore the previous two decades before that when the very question I'm posing is how they went from a program that had five winning seasons from 1986 to 2002 (two of which one game over .500) to a national title contender. You guys are glossing over the fact that they had 18 consecutive years without an appearance in the NCAA Tournament.

During a 33 year period from 1970 to Turgeon's first winning season in 2003, Wichita had 19 losing/non-winning seasons and only 14 winning seasons including that pretty good four year run from 1981-84. But during this 33-year period that was more of an anomaly than a standard. What they have done over the past 10 years is different far more impressive particularly given the ESPN factor. I'm just trying to ask the question what changed for them to do all those things you referenced. They stopped playing football in '86 and their basketball got worse over the next 15 years, so it's not just that.

Perhaps you did answer the question though. Having great support even when the team is bad could be a key factor here. What else?

(02-25-2014 11:47 AM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  They are in a big city in a basketball-crazy state that is not oversaturated with major universities like Tennesee, so they have a ton of support.

Perspective is a funny thing. I think of Tennessee as not being oversaturated with major universities. UT-Knoxville, U of Memphis, and I guess MTSU these days. That seems like it to me.

(02-25-2014 12:36 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 11:47 AM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  They are in a big city in a basketball-crazy state that is not oversaturated with major universities like Tennesee, so they have a ton of support.

Perspective is a funny thing. I think of Tennessee as not being oversaturated with major universities. UT-Knoxville, U of Memphis, and I guess MTSU these days. That seems like it to me.

Vandy...

Also looking at basketball only, there is Belmont and regionally, UT-C and ETSU

There is always talk of an early season "all-Tennessee Tourney"

Memphis, Tennessee, Vandy, MTSU, Belmont, Austin Peay, ETSU, TN-Tech, UT-Martin, UT-Chatt

The trouble is picking 8 from different conferences.

(02-25-2014 12:55 PM)mufanatehc Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 12:36 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 11:47 AM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  They are in a big city in a basketball-crazy state that is not oversaturated with major universities like Tennesee, so they have a ton of support.

Perspective is a funny thing. I think of Tennessee as not being oversaturated with major universities. UT-Knoxville, U of Memphis, and I guess MTSU these days. That seems like it to me.

Vandy...

Also looking at basketball only, there is Belmont and regionally, UT-C and ETSU

I forgot Vandy (I bet that happens a lot). While Belmont can be good in basketball I would not call them a major university, and the same goes with Chatt and ETSU. Let's call it four major universities.

(02-25-2014 12:36 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 11:47 AM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  They are in a big city in a basketball-crazy state that is not oversaturated with major universities like Tennesee, so they have a ton of support.

Perspective is a funny thing. I think of Tennessee as not being oversaturated with major universities. UT-Knoxville, U of Memphis, and I guess MTSU these days. That seems like it to me.

I was sure you were referring to Wichita being called a 'big city'...

(02-25-2014 02:10 PM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 12:36 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 11:47 AM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  They are in a big city in a basketball-crazy state that is not oversaturated with major universities like Tennesee, so they have a ton of support.

Perspective is a funny thing. I think of Tennessee as not being oversaturated with major universities. UT-Knoxville, U of Memphis, and I guess MTSU these days. That seems like it to me.

I was sure you were referring to Wichita being called a 'big city'...

It is bigger than I thought. I thought Wichita was like 150,000 people. I was way off.

(02-24-2014 04:39 PM)VA49er Wrote:  

(02-24-2014 04:38 PM)MUsince96 Wrote:  And if I'm remembering correctly (which I may not be), it was only really a mess for the Big East. Not so much for C-USA, they just made the choice to no longer be hybrid in 2005.

Huge mess for Charlotte. There's a reason we left CUSA 1.0.

You're a wise poster.

Decades of history support the fact that unless you're a national draw like ND, Army, or Navy; hybrid conferences are doomed for eventual failure or restructure as all-sports or olympic only sports conferences.

I'm always surprised when folks continue to try to fit olympic sports/all-sports programs together with the long, long history of eventual failure for them to co-exist.

Our best (perhaps only) chance of grabbing strong mid-level MBB programs is when/if they start football programs.

(See Dominion, Old.)