(02-25-2014 12:36 PM)Nugget49er Wrote:  

(02-25-2014 11:47 AM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  They are in a big city in a basketball-crazy state that is not oversaturated with major universities like Tennesee, so they have a ton of support.

Perspective is a funny thing. I think of Tennessee as not being oversaturated with major universities. UT-Knoxville, U of Memphis, and I guess MTSU these days. That seems like it to me.

There are 12 Division I programs in Tennessee and its 6.5m population.

Behind Louisiana, I think that is the most per-capita.

Kansas, on the other hand, has three D1 universities for a state of 2.9m.

The number of major universities in, and subsequently the amount of money squandered by, Southern states is absurd.

(02-25-2014 12:27 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  First, I didn't make any comment, insinuations or perceptions about Wichita's resources. I wonder if some of you are even reading what I write. I'm going specifically off of results. Second, I don't know why you guys are trying to compare MT to Wichita. I'm pretty sure in the OP I made no mention of MT nor any comparison. But since you all want to make a comparison to either MT or C-USA....

From 1970 to 1989, Wichita St made five NCAA tournament appearances. During that same span, Middle Tennessee made six NCAA Tournament Apperances. Wichita had one more NCAA Tournament win than we did (theirs just all came in the same one).

The next decade plus they were atrocious as I pointed out previously - actually worse than Middle Tennessee and we were terrible during that period.

You can't talk about the past 10 years where they have been really good and ignore the previous two decades before that when the very question I'm posing is how they went from a program that had five winning seasons from 1986 to 2002 (two of which one game over .500) to a national title contender. You guys are glossing over the fact that they had 18 consecutive years without an appearance in the NCAA Tournament.

During a 33 year period from 1970 to Turgeon's first winning season in 2003, Wichita had 19 losing/non-winning seasons and only 14 winning seasons including that pretty good four year run from 1981-84. But during this 33-year period that was more of an anomaly than a standard. What they have done over the past 10 years is different far more impressive particularly given the ESPN factor. I'm just trying to ask the question what changed for them to do all those things you referenced. They stopped playing football in '86 and their basketball got worse over the next 15 years, so it's not just that.

Perhaps you did answer the question though. Having great support even when the team is bad could be a key factor here. What else?

-It seemed like you were making insinuations about resources here: "And maybe even a bigger question how in the hell have they held on to Marshall." I'm not sure why you would ask that question unless you were assuming WSU like like any other mid-major.

If you weren't making assumptions about WSU's resources, then the answer of, "Why Wichita..." is easy....their resources. They have more resources than a lot of major conference teams.

Success in the 1980's: I was not comparing WSU and MTSU. I was refuting your claim that their program has always been garbage. I don't think a 186-79 record over a nine year stretch with three NCAA appearances--not including maybe their best two years when they were on probation--constitutes "garbage." There's some history of winning there.

I think you are overstating the importance of prior seasons, anyway. If you asked Mark Turgeon what was a bigger deal to him: That the program had been atrocious for ten years or that he had an athletic department that could pump lots of money into the program and a large fanbase that showed up to games win or lose, I'll give you a hint what he'd say. All the 90's meant for Turgeon was that he was taking over a sleeping giant.

Resources, resources, resources.

"You can't talk about the past 10 years where they have been really good." It is definitely relevant in showing why they are keeping Marshall, which was one of your original questions.

Three by L, as I stated in an earlier post, I don't think you have the full picture of WSU basketball. For example, this is not the first time WSU has been ranked #2 in the polls, and they have been ranked #1 as well. The past success of the Shockers helps to fuel the perception they are a traditionally strong program. And I believe they are a traditionally strong program. One of the reasons they have not been to that many NCAA tournaments the past 20 years is the conference they play in. If you look back at the strength of teams such as Tulsa, Southern Illinois, Missouri State and Creighton, it is hard to win the conference tournament and get that auto bid. We all know how hard it is to get an at large bid in a non power conference, even though the MVC has done fairly well getting multiple teams in. The people of Wichita view the shockers as a strong program, and I believe the college basketball world does as well. You constantly hear the pundits commenting on the Shocker tradition and on the tremendous support they receive. So it should come as no surprise that the right coach, the right players, etc., puts WSU back into the national limelight. As far as the fans are concerned that is where the belong.

Because most coaches aspire to be at an elite school and conference. Not all of them, but the fact that he's taking less to stay at Wichita State when he's had schools like UCLA throw much more money at him is surprising. Not a lot of people turn down schools like Kansas, UNC, or UCLA to stay at a mid-major. That's what I meant about how have they been able to hold on to him. I don't think it's the money, because he could clearly have cashed in for more.

That 186-79 record run was over just a few seasons mixed in with a bunch of average seasons. After that 84 season through 2003 they were pretty much a dumpster fire. Perhaps garbage program was a little much considering their history in total, but they were not good for a long time and then seemingly became one of the premier basketball programs in the nation and have sustained that.

(02-25-2014 03:50 PM)eaglenjxn Wrote:  I think you are overstating the importance of prior seasons, anyway. If you asked Mark Turgeon what was a bigger deal to him: That the program had been atrocious for ten years or that he had an athletic department that could pump lots of money into the program and a large fanbase that showed up to games win or lose, I'll give you a hint what he'd say. All the 90's meant for Turgeon was that he was taking over a sleeping giant.

This is definitely an interesting observation. This type of turnaround with sustained follow up is rare though. You don't often see programs that are essentially bad for that long and then become a premier program like that even if they had some good runs in the 60's and 80's. If that's what he saw that's some pretty impressive vision.

Perhaps I asked the wrong question. Maybe I should have asked what the hell happened to their program from the mid 80's through 2002?

BTW, I don't underappreciate what they have done. I'm very impressed. I hope we can continue to do what we've been doing and emulate the sustained success they've had over the past 10 years, so please don't get me wrong.

I was just confused at how they have been able to do it. I know we have been in different leagues, but Middle Tennessee basketball has been pretty much terrible for a long, long time until very recently and when you consider that 33 year period that we had 21 winning seasons while Wichita St had only 14 was kind of surprising to me.

(02-25-2014 04:28 PM)ThreeifbyLightning Wrote:  BTW, I don't underappreciate what they have done. I'm very impressed. I hope we can continue to do what we've been doing and emulate the sustained success they've had over the past 10 years, so please don't get me wrong.

I was just confused at how they have been able to do it. I know we have been in different leagues, but Middle Tennessee basketball has been pretty much terrible for a long, long time until very recently and when you consider that 33 year period that we had 21 winning seasons while Wichita St had only 14 was kind of surprising to me.

I think we are seeing a change in a trend of where coaches aspire to go to big time college programs. With the recent success of perceived mid major programs like Butler, Gonzaga, VCU, George Mason sometimes it's just about being comfortable at a program while also having the resources to win. Wichita could actually win the title this season.

Butler was a second away from winning a national title. George Mason and VCU have made Final Four's within the last decade. Maybe people should stop thinking that the ultimate goal of coaches is to coach at an elite program. Maybe it's just about being successful and creating your own legacy.

What would be helpful is to stop calling schools mid major. We have been brainwashed into accepting in basketball the second tier status existing in football. Perhaps if certain schools would leave their arenas and play other schools on their home courts, we would see a different attitude about teams from the "other" conferences.

Three by L, below is the link to the WSU basketball fact book. It has everything you might want to know about the Shockers, past and present.

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/7ae5...7ae5f36d/1

(02-25-2014 07:04 PM)BuzDawg73 Wrote:  What would be helpful is to stop calling schools mid major. We have been brainwashed into accepting in basketball the second tier status existing in football. Perhaps if certain schools would leave their arenas and play other schools on their home courts, we would see a different attitude about teams from the "other" conferences.

This

WSU is 30-0. Made history tonight as the only school to make 30-0 in the regular season.

(02-25-2014 02:45 PM)Orange County Owl Wrote:  Our best (perhaps only) chance of grabbing strong mid-level MBB programs is when/if they start football programs.

(See Dominion, Old.)

That's a good observation, Owl.

Wichita State will stay where they are until one of the tv companies (ESPN/FOX) tells the Big East or American to come calling for them.

One of my favorite points made last week.
Digger: "WSU hasn't played anybody."
Bolas: "No Digger, no one will play them. Why should Wichita kowtow to a major conference school who has a inferior program, yet wants to schedule Wichita to a 2-1? The big boys need to leave home and play a challenging road every few years."

Digger is the same idiot he was 30 years ago.

(02-26-2014 08:24 AM)TU 1978 Wrote:  Digger is the same idiot he was 30 years ago.

True words^^

Bilas used to praise Charlotte, but not so much anymore since Lutz was canned.

Bilas is down with the hip-hop community lol.

(02-26-2014 08:59 AM)VA49er Wrote:  

(02-26-2014 08:24 AM)TU 1978 Wrote:  Digger is the same idiot he was 30 years ago.

True words^^

Bilas used to praise Charlotte, but not so much anymore since Lutz was canned.

He and Lutz were golf buddies weren't they?

Bilas lambasted us and the committee last year for giving us an at-large. He's a shill for a select few power conferences.

Syracuse has a tougher schedule, but they lost to Boston College. Wichita State has beaten everyone they've played. Let's give credit where credit is due.