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http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/...rt_best-of

Thoughts?

I like that, making the executives and engineers accountable. Then he gives them a pass on losing out to Japanese car companies? The union didn't design the K car. Can you say Corvair? How about a Ford Exploder

Is it really an either or proposition?

Like anything written or broadcast today, on either side, the article is narrow and biased. DB is right, in addition to the cars he named, who designed, approved and financed the Pinto, or the Edsel for gawd's sake. Who didn't understand the threat to the auto industry from abroad until it was too late? Not the rank and file, that's for damn sure. Who pissed away resources with impugned arrogance? Not the workers, nope it was the CEO and the board? Who begged the govt. for loans?

As far as their being no middle class without executives, who knows? But...... The ides that there is no middle class without management goes both ways, without American workers there is no management. If they off shore everything, who's gonna buy the damn product? No consumers, no product, no profit, no management.

It might be a discussion worth having, but that was a silly-ass article.

Quote:The ides that there is no middle class without management goes both ways, without American workers there is no management

It's hard to have a discussion without defining the terms.

So...what is the "middle class"?

That would be the class that the executives built, right?

Quote:That would be the class that the executives built, right?

Either that, or it's the class that allows the executives to exist. :).

(01-26-2014 11:55 AM)ESSSS Wrote:  

Quote:The ides that there is no middle class without management goes both ways, without American workers there is no management

It's hard to have a discussion without defining the terms.

So...what is the "middle class"?

Quote:One plausible definition of "middle-class" is those households in the middle quintile of the income distribution, or between the 40th and 60th percentiles. Under this view, 0-20th percentile is lower class, 20th-40th is lower-middle class, 40th-60th is middle class, 60th-80th is upper middle class, and 80th to 99th is upper class. The lower classes make under $20,262, in this view, and the upper classes above $101,582, according to the latest Census data.

Quote:40th-60th is middle class

What is the income distribution for this quintile?

How the **** am I in the upper class yet feel so broke?

Maybe it is because I am not counting on social security or my pension being there when I retire?

Owning stuff now days is key. Not money, not with our fiscal goings on. You could have tons of cash and turn out to have it be worthless.

Quote: You could have tons of cash and turn out to have it be worthless.

You sound like one of those doomsayers (wink).

I feel like one these days. Serious, it's key at any rate. When I say own, I mean OWN. Those are my goals. I could end up being wrong, but in the end, how wrong are you at any rate when you go that route?

FWIW, it's a huge shift in thinking on my end. Not so "case of the whimsy's"

(01-26-2014 12:53 PM)Kimbosucks Wrote:  How the **** am I in the upper class yet feel so broke?

Add the word middle in there, and I feel the same way.

(01-26-2014 11:50 AM)BCBronco Wrote:  Like anything written or broadcast today, on either side, the article is narrow and biased. DB is right, in addition to the cars he named, who designed, approved and financed the Pinto, or the Edsel for gawd's sake. Who didn't understand the threat to the auto industry from abroad until it was too late? Not the rank and file, that's for damn sure. Who pissed away resources with impugned arrogance? Not the workers, nope it was the CEO and the board? Who begged the govt. for loans?

As far as their being no middle class without executives, who knows? But...... The ides that there is no middle class without management goes both ways, without American workers there is no management. If they off shore everything, who's gonna buy the damn product? No consumers, no product, no profit, no management.

It might be a discussion worth having, but that was a silly-ass article.

My take away wasnt that article was disparging of the rank and file but the union leadership and constrasting what they "create" vs. executive management.

No bones about it management makes mistakes including many you mention. But they are still creating and executing the plans that manufacture something (good or bad). Union leadership on the other hand requires higher dues from the rank and file but produce nothing.
That, IMO, is insulting of the workforce.

It's insulting? When they represent people that otherwise can't/won't bargain for themselves, they add value to the people that they represent. Remember, like all things, unions were born of necessity. Like a lot of things, their time may have passed.

Or maybe not, I'm thinking those Chinese guys who jumped to their death in the workplace because conditions were so intolerable could have used some help, no?

A LOT of what you take for granted in the workforce today was the result of union bargaining, now it's part of our culture and expected.

(01-26-2014 05:29 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Or maybe not, I'm thinking those Chinese guys who jumped to their death in the workplace because conditions were so intolerable could have used some help, no?

No. That's called the miracle of the marketplace. Plus...they didn't build that.

Sincerely,

gobaseline

(01-26-2014 06:05 PM)Charm City Bronco Wrote:  

(01-26-2014 05:29 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  Or maybe not, I'm thinking those Chinese guys who jumped to their death in the workplace because conditions were so intolerable could have used some help, no?

No. That's called the miracle of the marketplace. Plus...they didn't build that.

Sincerely,

gobaseline

Prince, stick to the topic. Don't deflect just because you don't have something to offer.

Question was about US middle class and who lead that drive starting post WW II.

(01-26-2014 05:29 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  It's insulting? When they represent people that otherwise can't/won't bargain for themselves, they add value to the people that they represent. Remember, like all things, unions were born of necessity. Like a lot of things, their time may have passed.

Or maybe not, I'm thinking those Chinese guys who jumped to their death in the workplace because conditions were so intolerable could have used some help, no?

A LOT of what you take for granted in the workforce today was the result of union bargaining, now it's part of our culture and expected.

You may have hit on it. Past their time or at least not current.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

A good approach, Kimbo.

Back on topic, what is the middle class? I think it is not all about money. I grew up in a family that was "working class" at the best, and yet my parents and neighbors had "middle class" values, hard working, church going, god-fearing, didn't cut the lawn on Sunday, didn't lie cheat or steal, and didn't go out with girls that did.

I'd describe myself as upper middle class financially all these years later, two of my sisters did average, the other is way upper class with her own medical management company, employing several doctors in 4 states. Her career started at Big Boy, by the way, and she never got a college degree. Hardest working person I ever met, bar none.

So the money part is quantifiable, and interesting. But values count too.

As far as the upper management and engineering/professional types vs. the working class, I think it is a shame that we think of them as being one or the other and not a cooperative whole. We are all born with talents and abilities, and then learn values from our family and culture. Some have advantages of being born to money, the best of schools, every advantage. Many of those people are "successful". Others are born in adject poverty, crack ho's for mom's, no model but their teachers.

In the workplace, my experience is the worker does more than they get credit for. If you want to know the real deal, ask the worker. If you want to hear hype, talk to the upper management. Engineers/professionals I respect the most, they usually do a lot of work for good compensation but keep the heck out of the political part of it.