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It was a political article, and a bad one at that. Nothing more.

(01-26-2014 06:24 PM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(01-26-2014 05:29 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  It's insulting? When they represent people that otherwise can't/won't bargain for themselves, they add value to the people that they represent. Remember, like all things, unions were born of necessity. Like a lot of things, their time may have passed.

Or maybe not, I'm thinking those Chinese guys who jumped to their death in the workplace because conditions were so intolerable could have used some help, no?

A LOT of what you take for granted in the workforce today was the result of union bargaining, now it's part of our culture and expected.

You may have hit on it. Past their time or at least not current.

I'm thinking there are quite a few people working two plus low paying jobs, no insurance or benefits provided other than that on the aca web site, that wish they had someone to represent them. Sure isn't their congressmen or senator.

(01-26-2014 07:06 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

(01-26-2014 06:24 PM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(01-26-2014 05:29 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  It's insulting? When they represent people that otherwise can't/won't bargain for themselves, they add value to the people that they represent. Remember, like all things, unions were born of necessity. Like a lot of things, their time may have passed.

Or maybe not, I'm thinking those Chinese guys who jumped to their death in the workplace because conditions were so intolerable could have used some help, no?

A LOT of what you take for granted in the workforce today was the result of union bargaining, now it's part of our culture and expected.

You may have hit on it. Past their time or at least not current.

I'm thinking there are quite a few people working two plus low paying jobs, no insurance or benefits provided other than that on the aca web site, that wish they had someone to represent them. Sure isn't their congressmen or senator.

Come on Mr. Dickens, we're better than that!

http://news.yahoo.com/face-food-stamps-w...17479.html

(01-26-2014 07:06 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

(01-26-2014 06:24 PM)gobaseline Wrote:  

(01-26-2014 05:29 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  It's insulting? When they represent people that otherwise can't/won't bargain for themselves, they add value to the people that they represent. Remember, like all things, unions were born of necessity. Like a lot of things, their time may have passed.

Or maybe not, I'm thinking those Chinese guys who jumped to their death in the workplace because conditions were so intolerable could have used some help, no?

A LOT of what you take for granted in the workforce today was the result of union bargaining, now it's part of our culture and expected.

You may have hit on it. Past their time or at least not current.

I'm thinking there are quite a few people working two plus low paying jobs, no insurance or benefits provided other than that on the aca web site, that wish they had someone to represent them. Sure isn't their congressmen or senator.

True and I am sure we all know some in that employment situation.

And to your previous point about it being a part of our culture and is expected, IMO part of the reason that some arent able to keep up. There are and were expectations, where the reality has moved on.

But again, the article raised the question as to how valid union leadership played a role in forging the middle class? I would add the question of retain a middle class?

The historical points raised are true. The world was either in rubble or utterly undeveloped post WWII. The US had a virtual monoply in means to manufacture and rebuild. The world was our oyster and the US was eating it up.

Those things have changed significantly and began showing significantly since the 70's. The pace of change has only accelerated. Adaptation was at best slow and often resisted if not flat out made out to be the bogey man.

Corporations that struggled more often got replaced. American Motors, Kodak, Sunbeam, Eastern Airlines, etc. Union leadership continued to cash in but their membership has paid a steep price. And it continues.

Made in Japan now is made in Pakistan, India or China. In a decade or less it will elsewhere.

Quote:But again, the article raised the question as to how valid union leadership played a role in forging the middle class? I would add the question of retain a middle class?

DB answered this once, but your worldview won't let you process or accept the answer. If not for organized labor there would be no middle class. The executives that seem to be revered in that silly article would be paying folks $1.50 an hour, with no bennies, no vacations, no time off and no overtime.

As DB noted, unions emerged due to sub-human sweatshop conditions with no end in sight. The role of unions in bargaining for a living wage helped raise the standard of living for all of us, thus facilitating a middle class. Do you really think that would have happened without the countervailing force of organized labor? The history of robber barons tells us no.

Quote:Corporations that struggled more often got replaced. American Motors, Kodak, Sunbeam, Eastern Airlines, etc. Union leadership continued to cash in but their membership has paid a steep price. And it continues.

U assume these companies are gone due to unions, rather they are gone due to poor products, poor management, misreading the market, foreign competition, and so on. To blame their demise on labor is simplistic and narrow.

UPS Shareholders curse the Teamsters all the way to the bank as they cash their big dividend checks.

(01-26-2014 11:04 PM)BCBronco Wrote:  

Quote:But again, the article raised the question as to how valid union leadership played a role in forging the middle class? I would add the question of retain a middle class?

DB answered this once, but your worldview won't let you process or accept the answer. If not for organized labor there would be no middle class. The executives that seem to be revered in that silly article would be paying folks $1.50 an hour, with no bennies, no vacations, no time off and no overtime.

As DB noted, unions emerged due to sub-human sweatshop conditions with no end in sight. The role of unions in bargaining for a living wage helped raise the standard of living for all of us, thus facilitating a middle class. Do you really think that would have happened without the countervailing force of organized labor? The history of robber barons tells us no.

Thanks for connecting the dots for me, I failed here.

Here is an interesting homework project for those that have donated money to WMU athletics.

Ask around and find out what happens to your hard earned money if/when nonunion workers are used to upgrade/improve or build new facilities.

Can we earmark it for union workers only?

Quote:http://news.yahoo.com/face-food-stamps-w...17479.html

Why is this the problem defined here as one of "income inequality" rather than one of skill inequality?

Other than being a young (single ?) mother, why would any business owner to pay this young lady a high wage with "good benefits"?

Perhaps the UAW should hire her?

If she were hot, someone would hire her. Life ain't fair for all sides.

Quote:Can we earmark it for union workers only?

Maybe:).

Have unions organized your field?

If yes, would you hire more expensive union workers over equally qualified nonunion workers just to make a point?

I have no doubt that in the commercial building trades union labor delivers a superior product.

I worked with both on many many projects during my career, and the non-union contractors work quality sucks in comparison.

Many management teams prefer to work with union labor as most decisions about work conditions, promotion, sequence of layoff, etc. are cut and dried, grievance procedures standardized, and the ont get in the position of negotiating every little detail over and over, which is very time consuming. Everybody knows where they stand.

In small business it makes more sense to work on an individual basis, but on the scale of an auto manufacture all of that individual detail would be oppressive to management. Still, I realize some of the foreign plants have made it work, but from what I understand, their total comp costs are very similar to union shops.

Quote:I have no doubt that in the commercial building trades union labor delivers a superior product.

I worked with both on many many projects during my career

I've worked on a few myself.

And I would agree with your assessment regarding the quality of the work performed by the labor belonging to the building trades unions.

I also witnessed many, many abuses by the labor force on jobs at union sites. Not with respect to work quality, but with taking advantage of their employers. Always protected by the unions.

I also witnessed verbal and physical intimidation of "scabs" and "rats", etc. These were simply workers excluded from the unions who hoped to work to support their families.

Should all consumers be forced to buy the best and most expensive cars?

Should all employers be forced to hire the best and most expensive workers?

Quote:Should all consumers be forced to buy the best and most expensive cars?

Should all employers be forced to hire the best and most expensive workers?

Consumers can buy what they want, for example we all know the history of the Yugo. As far as employers, no they don't have to hire the most expensive employees, but the caveat is that when employers pay a living wage, with bennies and create safe and humane working conditions, the likelihood for the formation of a union declines.

For example WMU professors are in a union, MSU professors are not in a union. I don't know the backstory, but I'd be interested. Having said that, MSU professors are the second lowest paid in the B1G.

Quote:For example WMU professors are in a union, MSU professors are not in a union. I don't know the backstory, but I'd be interested. Having said that, MSU professors are the second lowest paid in the B1G.

There is no doubt that Unions are good to/for their members.

Whether they are good for society at large (consumers) , and the workers they actively try to exclude from union membership (to decrease completion) is worth debating.

I have always wondered why unions don't simply start there own corporations and compete in the marketplace.

(01-27-2014 09:47 AM)ESSSS Wrote:  

Quote:For example WMU professors are in a union, MSU professors are not in a union. I don't know the backstory, but I'd be interested. Having said that, MSU professors are the second lowest paid in the B1G.

There is no doubt that Unions are good to/for their members.

Whether they are good for society at large (consumers) , and the workers they actively try to exclude from union membership (to decrease completion) is worth debating.

I have always wondered why unions don't simply start there own corporations and compete in the marketplace.

Probably for the same reason that execs don't rub elbows with the rank and file.

To your note, I've seen unions in real time, while I was working there, use their pension funds to try and prop up companies that were floundering. It's not so cut and dried.

Quote:Probably for the same reason that execs don't rub elbows with the rank and file.

I'm not defending POS business executives.

But that doesn't answer my question.