(05-09-2012 04:11 PM)Borncoog74 Wrote:  FSU and Clemson were rumored to the BIG XII???? Wait what???? Come on.....

Why is this the first I am hearing about this????

Who else knew about this????

Wha???

hahahaha

(05-09-2012 03:08 PM)BGKnight Wrote:  Wait, are you talking about the ACC or those wanting the Big East to die?

On second thought the same group is looking for both conferences to die so I guess that is a moot point.

That is actually a good point and there definitely some parallels there. Did you ever notice how the fans who have the most contempt for all things BE and who forecast the greatest disaster for that league are the East Carolina and Southern Mississippi fans? Well look at WVU fans as the richer version of those folks. It's all about butt hurt for most of these folks. What is more difficult to explain is why so many idiots continue to believe this implausible garbage? That is a lot more difficult to understand.

(05-09-2012 03:24 PM)YA! Wrote:  How can you be trusted when you post repeatedly that TCU only averaged 30k last year as a school that has no followers when the stadium was in the process of being redone and only held 30k max last year? You twist the truth to suit your own purposes..ie a liar!

Whoa, easy there Cochese. I have never lied about anything on this board. I can tend to be a bit too blunt for some people's tastes (I prefer to call it "direct communicating") but I never have suffered foolishness or fools very patiently. I am definitely not a liar and I certainly wouldn't lie about something as inconsequential as TCU's home football attendance.

In fact I don't think you understand what the word "liar" even means if that is what you are calling me. I had no idea how many seats your stadium held last year, I just looked at the 2011 attendance figures and reported what I read.

I'll tell you what, just give me the 10 year average for TCU - and please provide links so that I can fact check - and I will use that figure instead. Is that a deal?

Of course it won't be because I suspect that figure is not going to be appreciably different than the 30-33K I have consistently reported for last year. Seriously, just give me the numbers and I'll use those instead, I don't care. But please save the rationalizations for why the numbers are what they are for a more empathetic reader as I simply don't care.

Is the 8K undergrad population inaccurate as well because that came straight from your wikipedia page. Is there some extenuating circumstance there as well of which I should be made aware? I'll use whatever number you want there as well - but I will insist on supporting data.

For the record, a good example of a "liar" is someone who makes up multiple personalities to corroborate - or appear to corroborate - a fictional story that he has made up and is desperately trying to perpetuate. A "moron" is anyone who believes that nonsense.

(05-09-2012 05:11 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  

(05-09-2012 03:24 PM)YA! Wrote:  How can you be trusted when you post repeatedly that TCU only averaged 30k last year as a school that has no followers when the stadium was in the process of being redone and only held 30k max last year? You twist the truth to suit your own purposes..ie a liar!

Whoa, easy there Cochese. I have never lied about anything on this board. In fact I don't think you understand what the word "liar" even means if that is what you are calling me. I had no idea how many seats your stadium held last year, I just looked at the 2011 attendance figures and reported what I read.

I'll tell you what, just give me the 10 year average for TCU - and please provide links so that I can fact check - and I will use that figure instead. Is that a deal?

Of course it won't be because I suspect that figure is not going to be appreciably different than the 30-33K I have consistently reported for last year. Seriously, just give me the numbers and I'll use those instead, I don't care.

Is the 8K undergrad population inaccurate as well because that came straight from your wikipedia page. Is there some extenuating circumstance there as well of which I should be made aware? I'll use whatever number you want there as well - but I will insist on supporting data.

For the record, a good example of a "liar" is someone who makes up multiple personalities to corroborate - or appear to corroborate - a fictional story that he has made up and is desperately trying to perpetuate. A "moron" is anyone who believes that nonsense.

Well then you are a moron who does not have the common sense to actually look to see that your reported figure is inaccurate because the stadium only seated 30k last year, after it was anticipated at 32k. All it takes is google, but a typical liar will use lies and deceit to make their fraudulent point--which you did as is typical for your postings. BTW, we have already sold out the stadium for thus season as of yesterday, we are at 35k season tickets.
Fort Worth Star-T

Quote:The Big 12 hasn’t lost four of its best schools over the past two years because it’s a great place to be. Elite universities are fleeing the Big 12; why would FSU want to join it? If the Big 12 wasn’t good enough for Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri – universities who lived in the Big 12 for years, competed in it for years, recruited in it for years, intimately understood the culture and political climate and are actually located in its footprint – then it can’t be good for Florida State.

This is something for Louisville to think about and something W. Va is going to learn. Life with the Longhorns may not be all that wonderful. On the other hand, if Texas and Oklahoma were to bolt to the Pac 12, the Big 12 would not be that impressive of a conference.

WVU would rather be under the thumb of a school that actually values football, like Texas, than under the thumb of some clueless jerks in Providence...

We'll take the Longhorns. You take Providence. Mountaineer fans already know which one is worse. That's why WVU is now a Big XII team...

R.I.P.:

Nebraska vs Colorado
Nebraska vs Oklahoma
Nebraska vs Missouri
Missouri vs Kansas
Missouri vs Kansas State
Texas A&M vs Texas
West Virginia vs Pitt

(05-09-2012 03:21 PM)bk1714 Wrote:  

(05-09-2012 01:59 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  Pretty good article.

Paints the Big 12 as the refuge for academically puny expansion candidates. As a league with top heavy athletic departments who don't perform well across the board.

Some money quotes:

The Big 12 hasn’t lost four of its best schools over the past two years because it’s a great place to be. Elite universities are fleeing the Big 12; why would FSU want to join it? If the Big 12 wasn’t good enough for Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri – universities who lived in the Big 12 for years, competed in it for years, recruited in it for years, intimately understood the culture and political climate and are actually located in its footprint – then it can’t be good for Florida State.

************

NO UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT OR BOARD OF TRUSTEES WILL EVER LEAVE AN ASSOCIATION WITH SCHOOLS LIKE DUKE, UNC, WAKE FOREST, MIAMI, GEORGIA TECH, BOSTON COLLEGE AND VIRGINIA IN FAVOR OF ONE WITH TEXAS TECH, OKLAHOMA STATE, WEST VIRGINIA AND KANSAS STATE.

**************

Big 12 football is better than ACC football. The ACC as an overall athletic conference is today and always has been better than the Big 12. In the 2010-2011 Learfield Sports Directors’ Cup, a broad measurement of a universities’ overall athletic success for men’s and women’s sports, the ACC had five members in the top 30 (Duke, North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland and Florida State) while the Big 12 had only two (Oklahoma and Texas – Big 2 Little 8). Football stands as the most important of all college sports in any way you want to measure it, but if you’re going to compete in other sports – and FSU is – you should seek to compete at the highest level.

I'd say the 1st reply at the site is a pretty thorough rebuttal.

Yup.

Sliced and diced.

(05-10-2012 09:17 AM)esayem Wrote:  R.I.P.:

Nebraska vs Colorado
Nebraska vs Oklahoma
Nebraska vs Missouri
Missouri vs Kansas
Missouri vs Kansas State
Texas A&M vs Texas
West Virginia vs Pitt

You might as well add WVU-BC, WVU-VT, and WVU-SU to that list...

(05-09-2012 10:46 PM)RUfan03 Wrote:  

Quote:The Big 12 hasn’t lost four of its best schools over the past two years because it’s a great place to be. Elite universities are fleeing the Big 12; why would FSU want to join it? If the Big 12 wasn’t good enough for Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri – universities who lived in the Big 12 for years, competed in it for years, recruited in it for years, intimately understood the culture and political climate and are actually located in its footprint – then it can’t be good for Florida State.

This is something for Louisville to think about and something W. Va is going to learn. Life with the Longhorns may not be all that wonderful. On the other hand, if Texas and Oklahoma were to bolt to the Pac 12, the Big 12 would not be that impressive of a conference.

The story of the Big 12 is certainly in some ways a cautionary tale of the perils of ill-considered realignment. Colorado, Nebraska, and Missouri co-existed pretty well for a long time in the Big 8. Once the Big 12 was formed there was a collision of cultures and interests, and attractive offers elsewhere finally precipitated a fracture.

I do have some optimism for the future of the current Big 12. We have two strong football anchors in OU and UT, neither of which are likely to be poached by the power conferences unless major obstacles are overcome. We have a strong basketball anchor in KU. We have several other strong programs in football and basketball. For the most part, the remaining schools are geographically relevant to each other, and I think that all of them are finally seeing some commonality in purpose.

The question for anyone coming into this group is how well would they fit in? Would they have similar goals as the other teams? Would they simply be biding their time waiting/hoping for something better to come along?

That is one reason why I am skeptical about FSU/Clemson. Even if the current economic climate and the Big 12's greater focus on football would make it an attractive move, I just don't have the feeling that they'd fit. It seems that they'd always have an eye on rejoining a rejuvenated ACC or finally getting into an expanded SEC.

In contrast, while they are lesser names, if UL and Cincy were to join, they would help build an Ohio Valley "pod" for the conference, and I suspect that they would be less likely to have a wandering eye. While not football powerhouses, their strong basketball programs, together with recent addition WVU, would help make the Big 12 an even stronger hoops league and provide some cohesion with the likes of KU.

I also think that while WVU may in many ways have a greater affinity for the ACC and SEC, if UL and Cincy also join and there's stability in the realignment landscape for a while, the Big 12 may find a level of cohesion that would allow that 12 team group to remain together.

(05-10-2012 10:18 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  

(05-09-2012 10:46 PM)RUfan03 Wrote:  

Quote:The Big 12 hasn’t lost four of its best schools over the past two years because it’s a great place to be. Elite universities are fleeing the Big 12; why would FSU want to join it? If the Big 12 wasn’t good enough for Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri – universities who lived in the Big 12 for years, competed in it for years, recruited in it for years, intimately understood the culture and political climate and are actually located in its footprint – then it can’t be good for Florida State.

This is something for Louisville to think about and something W. Va is going to learn. Life with the Longhorns may not be all that wonderful. On the other hand, if Texas and Oklahoma were to bolt to the Pac 12, the Big 12 would not be that impressive of a conference.

The story of the Big 12 is certainly in some ways a cautionary tale of the perils of ill-considered realignment. Colorado, Nebraska, and Missouri co-existed pretty well for a long time in the Big 8. Once the Big 12 was formed there was a collision of cultures and interests, and attractive offers elsewhere finally precipitated a fracture.

I do have some optimism for the future of the current Big 12. We have two strong football anchors in OU and UT, neither of which are likely to be poached by the power conferences unless major obstacles are overcome. We have a strong basketball anchor in KU. We have several other strong programs in football and basketball. For the most part, the remaining schools are geographically relevant to each other, and I think that all of them are finally seeing some commonality in purpose.

The question for anyone coming into this group is how well would they fit in? Would they have similar goals as the other teams? Would they simply be biding their time waiting/hoping for something better to come along?

That is one reason why I am skeptical about FSU/Clemson. Even if the current economic climate and the Big 12's greater focus on football would make it an attractive move, I just don't have the feeling that they'd fit. It seems that they'd always have an eye on rejoining a rejuvenated ACC or finally getting into an expanded SEC.

In contrast, while they are lesser names, if UL and Cincy were to join, they would help build an Ohio Valley "pod" for the conference, and I suspect that they would be less likely to have a wandering eye. While not football powerhouses, their strong basketball programs, together with recent addition WVU, would help make the Big 12 an even stronger hoops league and provide some cohesion with the likes of KU.

I also think that while WVU may in many ways have a greater affinity for the ACC and SEC, if UL and Cincy also join and there's stability in the realignment landscape for a while, the Big 12 may find a level of cohesion that would allow that 12 team group to remain together.

Well said Phog,

That is a perfectly reasonable post and I agree almost completely. I think the Big XII actually takes KU for granted. A fine University with legendary basketball tradition, KU would be a welcome addition to almost any conference. The Big XII would be smart to let KU take more of a leadership role alongside UT and OU or risk losing the Jayhawks. If it is the opinion of KU that Louisville and Cincinnati would be better additions than FSU and Clemson, then the Big XII powers that be may want to listen.

P.S. - The Celtics Thank You very much for Paul Pierce.

(05-10-2012 10:18 AM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  

(05-09-2012 10:46 PM)RUfan03 Wrote:  

Quote:The Big 12 hasn’t lost four of its best schools over the past two years because it’s a great place to be. Elite universities are fleeing the Big 12; why would FSU want to join it? If the Big 12 wasn’t good enough for Colorado, Nebraska, Texas A&M and Missouri – universities who lived in the Big 12 for years, competed in it for years, recruited in it for years, intimately understood the culture and political climate and are actually located in its footprint – then it can’t be good for Florida State.

This is something for Louisville to think about and something W. Va is going to learn. Life with the Longhorns may not be all that wonderful. On the other hand, if Texas and Oklahoma were to bolt to the Pac 12, the Big 12 would not be that impressive of a conference.

The story of the Big 12 is certainly in some ways a cautionary tale of the perils of ill-considered realignment. Colorado, Nebraska, and Missouri co-existed pretty well for a long time in the Big 8. Once the Big 12 was formed there was a collision of cultures and interests, and attractive offers elsewhere finally precipitated a fracture.

I do have some optimism for the future of the current Big 12. We have two strong football anchors in OU and UT, neither of which are likely to be poached by the power conferences unless major obstacles are overcome. We have a strong basketball anchor in KU. We have several other strong programs in football and basketball. For the most part, the remaining schools are geographically relevant to each other, and I think that all of them are finally seeing some commonality in purpose.

The question for anyone coming into this group is how well would they fit in? Would they have similar goals as the other teams? Would they simply be biding their time waiting/hoping for something better to come along?

That is one reason why I am skeptical about FSU/Clemson. Even if the current economic climate and the Big 12's greater focus on football would make it an attractive move, I just don't have the feeling that they'd fit. It seems that they'd always have an eye on rejoining a rejuvenated ACC or finally getting into an expanded SEC.

In contrast, while they are lesser names, if UL and Cincy were to join, they would help build an Ohio Valley "pod" for the conference, and I suspect that they would be less likely to have a wandering eye. While not football powerhouses, their strong basketball programs, together with recent addition WVU, would help make the Big 12 an even stronger hoops league and provide some cohesion with the likes of KU.

I also think that while WVU may in many ways have a greater affinity for the ACC and SEC, if UL and Cincy also join and there's stability in the realignment landscape for a while, the Big 12 may find a level of cohesion that would allow that 12 team group to remain together.

You got to take the shot while the shot is there to be taken though Phog. Your conference has something now that it never had before, the GOR. IF an FSU was to join they wouldn't have the easy out that others have previously had in the Big 12.

Sure you can settle on the idea that makes sense, build up that WVU region but once you go that route what can you promise to an FSU? You cannot really promise them many other members in their area.

Currently right now you could offer FSU an instant partner to come with them and some type of backed assurances that in the next round of additions that atleast one of the choices will be from their area. I know tensions are high and most of us would love to get past this period but UL and UC are there for you guys whenever you want them. Don't sell the Big 12 short just yet.

TommyC2 - Thanks for the kind words. I do think KU has a lot to offer, but in the current landscape of realignment inconsistent football and small shared markets are not strong cards to hold. And you're welcome for Paul Pierce - he was definitely a pleasure to watch in AFH!

He1nousOne - I would not reject an application by FSU. I am just skeptical that FSU/Clemson would ultimately join the conference. If we were to add them followed by UL/Cincy, it would be an intriguing 14-team conference. One thing it would have going for it this time around would be that everyone who joined would have a clear picture of what it was they were joining, whereas I think that the old Big 8 schools came in foolishly blind to what the dynamics of the new Big 12 would be.

(05-10-2012 12:21 PM)BewareThePhog Wrote:  TommyC2 - Thanks for the kind words. I do think KU has a lot to offer, but in the current landscape of realignment inconsistent football and small shared markets are not strong cards to hold. And you're welcome for Paul Pierce - he was definitely a pleasure to watch in AFH!

He1nousOne - I would not reject an application by FSU. I am just skeptical that FSU/Clemson would ultimately join the conference. If we were to add them followed by UL/Cincy, it would be an intriguing 14-team conference. One thing it would have going for it this time around would be that everyone who joined would have a clear picture of what it was they were joining, whereas I think that the old Big 8 schools came in foolishly blind to what the dynamics of the new Big 12 would be.

Yeah, everyone is much more educated on this subject now then they were back then. Also I think it has less to do with the internal culture of the Big 12 and just as much if not more to do with the overall expanding culture of college sports, football in particular, in America.

Back then everything was much much much more regionalized and the lifestyle of college football was much less commercialized. You have HUGE industries in place in certain areas of the country that are involved in building up kids as athletes. Schools like Colorado which used to be contenders when kids around the country were more equalized at football. Now they simply cannot compete and Colorado has never really been that strong at pulling kids up from the southern area of the Big 12. It is that major shift in the national culture of college football that gave us what happened in the Big 12. Colorado and Nebraska had to find leagues they could be more competitive going into the future.

For me, that is a sales point for the rest of the Big 12 schools when looking at some Top prospects for inclusion in the Big 12. People want to try and talk trash about some of the programs in the Big 12 but even Iowa State had a major effect on the National Title spotlight. As much as some eastern elites would like to denigrate the Iowa States, Kansas's and K States, those schools play a major part in the National Championship chase because of their affiliation with the Big 12. For some big schools that want some big games and better recognition for it, the Big 12 is a great place to be positioned.

Do not sell your conference short

(05-10-2012 08:01 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  WVU would rather be under the thumb of a school that actually values football, like Texas, than under the thumb of some clueless jerks in Providence...

We'll take the Longhorns. You take Providence. Mountaineer fans already know which one is worse. That's why WVU is now a Big XII team...

Well said Bit.