bitcruncher Wrote:North Carolina really doesn't seem to get football yet. They're all stuck on basketball, I guess.

At unc-ch, ncsu, Wake, and Duke, you are 100% correct.....however, at that school in Greenville, NC.....it is and always has been football first.....nc state is the ONLY school out of those 4 acc schools that is remotely even CLOSE to a 50/50 split interest-wise between football and hoops.....and that's only because their hoops have been so mediocre for so long.....for the rest, football is merely something to pass the time until tip-off.....

There's no accounting for taste...

Capital Pirate Wrote:

bitcruncher Wrote:North Carolina really doesn't seem to get football yet. They're all stuck on basketball, I guess.

At unc-ch, ncsu, Wake, and Duke, you are 100% correct.....however, at that school in Greenville, NC.....it is and always has been football first.....nc state is the ONLY school out of those 4 acc schools that is remotely even CLOSE to a 50/50 split interest-wise between football and hoops...

I'm not debating that the Carolina ACC members have basketball as their highest priority, and certainly Duke as an institution seems loathe to invest in the program. Being the smallest of three schools in the metro area, and the private one that's mostly graduate studies to boot, surely contributes to their inability to draw from the locals. Still, I love how people twist that picture into some suggestion that the ACC schools don't give any attention to the sport.

Since a decade long low of 43k in 1999, UNC, on-field ineptness and all, has averaged >50k per game for 5 of the past 7 seasons. The other two seasons were 47k and 48k. If they didn't take football seriously at all they wouldn't have pursued Butch Davis. Neighboring NCSU has completed renovations and expansions that raised the size of Carter Finley to 57k (IIRC). Past three seasons they've averaged 56k, 53k, 56k. Both programs made more in revenue from football than basketball during the 04/05 and 05/06 seasons, btw. I'm sure the AD's are fully aware of this.

Wake Forest, meanwhile, is one of the smallest schools in the country (about 6k total) yet drawing a healthy 28-30k the past 4 seasons and now preparing to construct a new media/suites facility. They're easily doing the best of the comparably-sized schools in 1-A (Rice, TCU, SMU, Tulsa), which you may attribute to BCS status but then you must also give them credit for making the best of their situation. (In fact, if you compare ratio of students to football attendance they're among the best in the nation.) Once the new tower is completed Wake expects to join UNC and NCSU in making more for football than from hoops.


ECU is most-likely the only of the 5 1-A NC institutions that cherishes football first and would undoubtedly raise their profile with the right exposure, funds, etc. And I'm among those who know their market value is more than what's read into Greenville. But to twist all that into such quick dismissals of the other football programs in the state is disingenuous at best, and at worst outright stupid.

Quote:I understand that, but you have to make sacrifices to move up and this would be a huge step in the right direction.

I agree that BCS membership is where every program wants/needs to be. But if the sacrifice kills you, it does not help.

You would be looking at the possibility that ECU would never have a voice in any conference. There is certainly no guarantee that we would ever get into Big East basketball.

That would be a slippery slope leading to the death of a program. Overall athletic program. How long would we keep a decent AD if he had no input in a conference. What happens when you do not have a decent AD?? You lose coaches! You lose decent administrators! You lose donors!

What happens to our overall program if every other sport is in the SOCON or CAA. They will never grow. Certainly never be a Big East level. That will not help the chances of ever joining for full membership. Plus there will always be the cloud over every one of our programs that we ABSOLUTELY would leave if given the chance. We would have no loyalty for any conference and they would have no loyalty for us. ECU got UNC-W into the CAA. But when we got the invite to C-USA, UNC-W voted against ECU for post season conference play.

ECU to the Big East in football would be nothing more than a scheduling agreement and not a membership. Same as the Army/Navy deal they passed on. The big picture is that it will cost us more longterm than what we would make with the extra BCS check.

Quote:Since a decade long low of 43k in 1999, UNC, on-field ineptness and all, has averaged >50k per game for 5 of the past 7 seasons. The other two seasons were 47k and 48k. If they didn't take football seriously at all they wouldn't have pursued Butch Davis. Neighboring NCSU has completed renovations and expansions that raised the size of Carter Finley to 57k (IIRC). Past three seasons they've averaged 56k, 53k, 56k. Both programs made more in revenue from football than basketball during the 04/05 and 05/06 seasons, btw. I'm sure the AD's are fully aware of this.

Wake Forest, meanwhile, is one of the smallest schools in the country (about 6k total) yet drawing a healthy 28-30k the past 4 seasons and now preparing to construct a new media/suites facility. They're easily doing the best of the comparably-sized schools in 1-A (Rice, TCU, SMU, Tulsa), which you may attribute to BCS status but then you must also give them credit for making the best of their situation. (In fact, if you compare ratio of students to football attendance they're among the best in the nation.) Once the new tower is completed Wake expects to join UNC and NCSU in making more for football than from hoops.

Amazing thing about football numbers at unc-ch and Duke. Do you know Duke reported nearly 20,000 average last season? No joke. BUT the truth is they rarely had more than 5,000. Amazing that unc-ch had 50,000 per game. A EVEN 50,000!! How do you get exactly 50,000? Look at some of the game photos. There is a passion for football at nc state. Wake has a small student body. So what!! I am not sure that has ever been a condition for large football crowds. They are also in a fairly large city in a large metro area with no pro sports AND they also play schools like nc state, unc-ch, Va Tech, Clemson, Virginia who are a couple hours drive away and will bring half of their crowds. Keep in mind this is also the Orange Bowl bound Deacons!!

Football makes more money because of the BCS, ACC contracts, and because football is king in America. But the passion at unc-ch, Duke, Wake and nc state is basketball. Always will be.

Topcard91 Wrote:Amazing thing about football numbers at unc-ch and Duke. Do you know Duke reported nearly 20,000 average last season? No joke. BUT the truth is they rarely had more than 5,000.

Which I'm sure you can verify, right? If Duke is guilty of inflating I'm sure it's not by any means more extraordinary than the rest of the NCAA members.

Quote:Amazing that unc-ch had 50,000 per game. A EVEN 50,000!! How do you get exactly 50,000? Look at some of the game photos.

You see, people generally round off figures for the grace of the conversation. But since you wish to play smartass about this, here's UNC's past few years as a straight per-game average:

1996 47,500
1997 57,650
1998 55,670
1999 43,667
2000 50,500
2001 52,583
2002 50,292
2003 47,133
2004 52,458
2005 51,667
2006 48,857

Feel free to go here for corroboration.

Quote:Wake has a small student body. So what!! I am not sure that has ever been a condition for large football crowds. They are also in a fairly large city in a large metro area with no pro sports AND they also play schools like nc state, unc-ch, Va Tech, Clemson, Virginia who are a couple hours drive away and will bring half of their crowds. Keep in mind this is also the Orange Bowl bound Deacons!!

So the fact that if every active Wake student attended a game they still wouldn't fill 7,000 seats doesn't have any impact on their attendance? I'll remember this someone reminds me about the size of enrollment at USF, UCF or ECU as a factor for their mass appeal. Surely the fact that places like OSU and Texas have more than 40,000 students has nothing to do with their ability to fill 90k - 100k+ stadia. Or the reason they have so many alumni across the country to aid their national TV appeal. Or the ability to sell merchandise. Or travel to Bowl games.

Quote:Football makes more money because of the BCS, ACC contracts, and because football is king in America. But the passion at unc-ch, Duke, Wake and nc state is basketball. Always will be.

The net cash impact of the BCS on the ACC is about $500 - $700k per member since they've yet to cash in on a 2-team bonus. It's not as if the BCS alone is worth the payout because they'd make some money from their top tier bowl anyway. For the Pac 10 and Big Ten the BCS only adds $4M per conference to the kitty.

As for ACC contracts that includes contracts for football, suggesting there is at least some appeal there. And those contracts are again based on market reach and market appeal, as discussed elsewhere by omnicarrier. So clearly these schools are contributing something to the value of those contracts.

Again, ECU has value as a school and as a football program, and I'm not even arguing that their football is worth less than that at the NC-4 in the ACC. But don't dismiss the attention paid to football at those ACC schools, either, because clearly it's there. They may favor hoops, but they're not ignoring football.

GunnerFan Wrote:You see, people generally round off figures for the grace of the conversation. But since you wish to play smartass about this, here's UNC's past few years as a straight per-game average:

1996 47,500
1997 57,650
1998 55,670
1999 43,667
2000 50,500
2001 52,583
2002 50,292
2003 47,133
2004 52,458
2005 51,667
2006 48,857

Feel free to go here for corroboration.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but where did you dig up the 1996-1999 attendance numbers Gunner? I hadn't been able to find anything prior to 2000 when looking attendance numbers up earlier, and that is also the earliest info I see on your link. Thanks.

No one has said that those schools "ignore" football.....but as I've lived here all my life, been a witness to, and intermingled with those schools' fanbases, I'll stand by what I posted......showing me attendance numbers for those schools means absolutely nothing.....I'm not speaking about school/fans' loyalty - no doubt people show up for the football games - and no doubt the schools themselves value football - especially now that they - quite possibly 4 of the LEAST deserving of the grandfathered-in BCS schools - rake in millions of dollars just for showing up on Saturdays to play those football games....what I'm speaking of the is the FACT that basketball IS, always HAS BEEN and always WILL BE KING at those 4 schools - no matter what you or anyone else who can only point to attendance numbers wants to think or believe.....hell, the fans themselves will tell you that - especially at Wake, Duke, and unc-ch......it's nothing short of common sense here in the state of NC......if a there was somehow a conflict between a unc-ch hoops game and a unc-ch football game, and you had a season ticket holder for BOTH sports standing in front of you - within walking distance of both venues - I'll bet you a finger that if you followed him from his car, the place where he sat his butt down would be the Dean Dome, not Kenan Stadium.....and that's how it is for a LARGE majority of fans of those schools.....proof's in the pudding, and always has been for those of us who live here and know how things are.....

...and please abstain from name-calling in the future ("stupid")...especially when it is YOU that doesn't have a true grasp of the topic......

Capital Pirate Wrote:No one has said that those schools "ignore" football.....but as I've lived here all my life, been a witness to, and intermingled with those schools' fanbases, I'll stand by what I posted......showing me attendance numbers for those schools means absolutely nothing.....I'm not speaking about school/fans' loyalty - no doubt people show up for the football games - and no doubt the schools themselves value football - especially now that they - quite possibly 4 of the LEAST deserving of the grandfathered-in BCS schools - rake in millions of dollars just for showing up on Saturdays to play those football games....what I'm speaking of the is the FACT that basketball IS, always HAS BEEN and always WILL BE KING at those 4 schools - no matter what you or anyone else who can only point to attendance numbers wants to think or believe.....hell, the fans themselves will tell you that - especially at Wake, Duke, and unc-ch......it's nothing short of common sense here in the state of NC......

And, as I have read the posts, that is basically what GunnerFan has said. Basketball first, football after. It's the degree to which those fans follow football that apparently is in dispute.

I seem to recall you were the one who was trying to put forth the notion that for the fans of those schools, football was simply a sport to follow until basketball season - especially at Duke, WF, and UNC. Which, while this may be true of Duke, is very dismissive of the football following that both UNC and Wake have developed.

Quote:...and please abstain from name-calling in the future ("stupid")...especially when it is YOU that doesn't have a true grasp of the topic......

As I see it, Gunner wasn't calling you, or anyone else 'stupid'. What he said was that this notion that those three NC schools only care about basketball and therefore one can be dismissive of the football following these programs have developed is "disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid."

An idea or a comment or an opinion can sometimes be lacking in critical thinking and therefore is open to criticism.

Cheers,
Neil

omnicarrier Wrote:

Capital Pirate Wrote:No one has said that those schools "ignore" football.....but as I've lived here all my life, been a witness to, and intermingled with those schools' fanbases, I'll stand by what I posted......showing me attendance numbers for those schools means absolutely nothing.....I'm not speaking about school/fans' loyalty - no doubt people show up for the football games - and no doubt the schools themselves value football - especially now that they - quite possibly 4 of the LEAST deserving of the grandfathered-in BCS schools - rake in millions of dollars just for showing up on Saturdays to play those football games....what I'm speaking of the is the FACT that basketball IS, always HAS BEEN and always WILL BE KING at those 4 schools - no matter what you or anyone else who can only point to attendance numbers wants to think or believe.....hell, the fans themselves will tell you that - especially at Wake, Duke, and unc-ch......it's nothing short of common sense here in the state of NC......

And, as I have read the posts, that is basically what GunnerFan has said. Basketball first, football after. It's the degree to which those fans follow football that apparently is in dispute.

I seem to recall you were the one who was trying to put forth the notion that for the fans of those schools, football was simply a sport to follow until basketball season - especially at Duke, WF, and UNC. Which, while this may be true of Duke, is very dismissive of the football following that both UNC and Wake have developed.

Quote:...and please abstain from name-calling in the future ("stupid")...especially when it is YOU that doesn't have a true grasp of the topic......

As I see it, Gunner wasn't calling you, or anyone else 'stupid'. What he said was that this notion that those three NC schools only care about basketball and therefore one can be dismissive of the football following these programs have developed is "disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid."

An idea or a comment or an opinion can sometimes be lacking in critical thinking and therefore is open to criticism.

Cheers,
Neil

...but the fact of the matter is that the football followings v. the hoops followings at those schools is NOT in dispute - not by a long shot.....as someone who has followed football in this state for over 30 years, I can tell you that without hesitation.....sure, unc-ch puts 50k+ in their stadium on occasion - but 3/4 of that crowd would pass up the football game for a unc-ch hoops game on campus at the same time....and wake???? Please.....have any of you ever been to a game at Wake? Until last season, "big" visiting teams' fans would on occasion outnumber the home fans in Groves stadium - even ECU has done it a few times.....those "Big 4" teams absolutely have loyalty to their football programs, but that loyalty is tempered by the loyalty those fanbases have to their hoops programs, without question.......I stand by my opinion on this matter.....

.....and since it was I who was being "dismissive" of the football following(s), I'll take it that it was I who was being "disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid.".....I just read the words and interpret them for what they are....

Capital Pirate Wrote:...but the fact of the matter is that the football followings v. the hoops followings at those schools is NOT in dispute - not by a long shot.....as someone who has followed football in this state for over 30 years, I can tell you that without hesitation.....sure, unc-ch puts 50k+ in their stadium on occasion - but 3/4 of that crowd would pass up the football game for a unc-ch hoops game on campus at the same time....

Since it is highly unlikely such an occurence will ever happen, there really is no way for you tell that. Also, unless you are a mind reader, I highly doubt you have the ability to speak for what some 45K plus fans would or would not do, especially without knowing the circumstances of said games involved, eg. opponent, what is at stake with the game, etc.

Again, exercising critical thinking skills, which is lacking in your stance throughout this thread, the best that anyone could say if this unlikely scenario were to come about is that about 1/2 would actually go to the bb game and 1/2 would go to the fb game, since the capacity of the Dean Smith Center is less than 1/2 of the average number who actually attend games at Kenan Stadium.

Quote:.....those "Big 4" teams absolutely have loyalty to their football programs, but that loyalty is tempered by the loyalty those fanbases have to their hoops programs, without question.......I stand by my opinion on this matter.....

A straw man's argument. You are again attempting to state that Gunner's position is different than your own in regard to those schools favoring bb over fb. He has said they favor bb over fb. What he is calling you on is your dismissiveness toward their football following to the point where they only follow football until basketball season comes around. Of course, since basketball season begins in November and football games are still going on and fans are attending those games just as much (if not moreso) than they were earlier in the season, I would think this fact alone would give you some pause on this dismissiveness.

It's also interesting to note that one of the football followings - in the case of UNC - exceeds that of ECU where football is the primary sport according to you in the same way that basketball is the primary sport for Duke.

Quote:.....and since it was I who was being "dismissive" of the football following(s), I'll take it that it was I who was being "disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid.".....I just read the words and interpret them for what they are....

No, it was not you (the individual) but your opinion which I feel is not based on critical thinking skills but based upon personal observation (which is dubious at best) and bias that is disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid. And even here, the only reason why the opinion is open to this valid criticism is because of your steadfastness not to concede any other possible view other than your own in this regard.

See the difference?

I'm sure there are many opinions that you hold that are based on critical thinking skills, data, and research that are brilliant. Or at the very least, opinions where you allow others to have a differing, but equally valid, opposing point of view.

Cheers,
Neil

Wonder what the poll result would look like if ECU actually had a good season and went to a decent bowl and won it. In most states. the state schools usually have more popularity than the private ones (USC being the exception) so it is hard to imagine there are more WF fans than ECU fans. However, UNC is definitely the flagship school in that state. ECU can help itself a lot if it continues to schedule other NC ACC schools and beat them in football.

omnicarrier Wrote:

Capital Pirate Wrote:...but the fact of the matter is that the football followings v. the hoops followings at those schools is NOT in dispute - not by a long shot.....as someone who has followed football in this state for over 30 years, I can tell you that without hesitation.....sure, unc-ch puts 50k+ in their stadium on occasion - but 3/4 of that crowd would pass up the football game for a unc-ch hoops game on campus at the same time....

Since it is highly unlikely such an occurence will ever happen, there really is no way for you tell that. Also, unless you are a mind reader, I highly doubt you have the ability to speak for what some 45K plus fans would or would not do, especially without knowing the circumstances of said games involved, eg. opponent, what is at stake with the game, etc.

Again, exercising critical thinking skills, which is lacking in your stance throughout this thread, the best that anyone could say if this unlikely scenario were to come about is that about 1/2 would actually go to the bb game and 1/2 would go to the fb game, since the capacity of the Dean Smith Center is less than 1/2 of the average number who actually attend games at Kenan Stadium.

Quote:.....those "Big 4" teams absolutely have loyalty to their football programs, but that loyalty is tempered by the loyalty those fanbases have to their hoops programs, without question.......I stand by my opinion on this matter.....

A straw man's argument. You are again attempting to state that Gunner's position is different than your own in regard to those schools favoring bb over fb. He has said they favor bb over fb. What he is calling you on is your dismissiveness toward their football following to the point where they only follow football until basketball season comes around. Of course, since basketball season begins in November and football games are still going on and fans are attending those games just as much (if not moreso) than they were earlier in the season, I would think this fact alone would give you some pause on this dismissiveness.

It's also interesting to note that one of the football followings - in the case of UNC - exceeds that of ECU where football is the primary sport according to you in the same way that basketball is the primary sport for Duke.

Quote:.....and since it was I who was being "dismissive" of the football following(s), I'll take it that it was I who was being "disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid.".....I just read the words and interpret them for what they are....

No, it was not you (the individual) but your opinion which I feel is not based on critical thinking skills but based upon personal observation (which is dubious at best) and bias that is disingenuous at best, and at worst stupid. And even here, the only reason why the opinion is open to this valid criticism is because of your steadfastness not to concede any other possible view other than your own in this regard.

See the difference?

I'm sure there are many opinions that you hold that are based on critical thinking skills, data, and research that are brilliant. Or at the very least, opinions where you allow others to have a differing, but equally valid, opposing point of view.

Cheers,
Neil

Tell you what....you guys keep hanging on to your attendance numbers and pure speculation....and I'll stand confident here in the State of North Carolina on the information and experience I have gained over the past 30+ years of watching ACC and ECU sports.....and we'll just leave it at that.....

How does this effect the Big East?

Unless, we are choosing between Memphis, East Carolina or Central Florida?

Please God, make it go away!

This is all just a long winded bull session about nothing much. Who cares - really?

Wake Forest and moreso Duke are bigtime beneficaries of having close regional rivals as home games. VT, UNC, NCSU, Clemson, and ECU (when we play there) all inflate both of their attendance numbers.

I have been to ECU games at Duke 3 times. Everytime ECU fans outnumber Duke in their own stadium at a rate of about 4 to 1. I would say there were a minimum of 24000 ECU fans and max of 6000 Duke fans everytime I've been. It's embarrassing.

When we go to WF it's a little more even, but even so it's still probably 15000 ECU fans and 12000 Wake fans.

It's the same way when Clemson, VT, UNC, and NCSU visit. There attendance numbers are vastly inflated by opposing fans.

oasispirate Wrote:I have been to ECU games at Duke 3 times. Everytime ECU fans outnumber Duke in their own stadium at a rate of about 4 to 1. I would say there were a minimum of 24000 ECU fans and max of 6000 Duke fans everytime I've been. It's embarrassing.

When we go to WF it's a little more even, but even so it's still probably 15000 ECU fans and 12000 Wake fans.

It's the same way when Clemson, VT, UNC, and NCSU visit. There attendance numbers are vastly inflated by opposing fans.

So Duke has less home fans (~6,000) than a Kent St or anyone else in I-A? I was going to just say "talk about some serious exaggeration" and be done with it! However, I figured with such boastful claims, it would only take a minute to disprove them.

I don't see any old box scores from Duke or ECU related to your last few trips to Durham, but no one is buying 24 of 30k were Pirate fans.

As for claiming 55% of crowds @ Wake, ECU's own website says they estimate they had 10,000 out of 28,486 (27-22 WF win on 9/7/02). That's a nice upper limit to use since no one is going to discount their own numbers.

We all believe you that the NC public schools are close enough to bring plenty of travelling fans to in-state road trips. No need to go completely overboard though.

oasispirate Wrote:Wake Forest and moreso Duke are bigtime beneficaries of having close regional rivals as home games. VT, UNC, NCSU, Clemson, and ECU (when we play there) all inflate both of their attendance numbers.

I have been to ECU games at Duke 3 times. Everytime ECU fans outnumber Duke in their own stadium at a rate of about 4 to 1. I would say there were a minimum of 24000 ECU fans and max of 6000 Duke fans everytime I've been. It's embarrassing.

When we go to WF it's a little more even, but even so it's still probably 15000 ECU fans and 12000 Wake fans.

It's the same way when Clemson, VT, UNC, and NCSU visit. There attendance numbers are vastly inflated by opposing fans.

If you were a Duke fan, would you want to go see your team get beaten every week?

CollegeCard Wrote:

oasispirate Wrote:I have been to ECU games at Duke 3 times. Everytime ECU fans outnumber Duke in their own stadium at a rate of about 4 to 1. I would say there were a minimum of 24000 ECU fans and max of 6000 Duke fans everytime I've been. It's embarrassing.

When we go to WF it's a little more even, but even so it's still probably 15000 ECU fans and 12000 Wake fans.

It's the same way when Clemson, VT, UNC, and NCSU visit. There attendance numbers are vastly inflated by opposing fans.

So Duke has less home fans (~6,000) than a Kent St or anyone else in I-A? I was going to just say "talk about some serious exaggeration" and be done with it! However, I figured with such boastful claims, it would only take a minute to disprove them.

I don't see any old box scores from Duke or ECU related to your last few trips to Durham, but no one is buying 24 of 30k were Pirate fans.

As for claiming 55% of crowds @ Wake, ECU's own website says they estimate they had 10,000 out of 28,486 (27-22 WF win on 9/7/02). That's a nice upper limit to use since no one is going to discount their own numbers.

We all believe you that the NC public schools are close enough to bring plenty of travelling fans to in-state road trips. No need to go completely overboard though.

Maybe that was the last time we played WF but that typically isn't the case. Go ask any NCSU fan, they view playing at Duke as a home game, as do ECU fans.

Like I said, I'll go off actual numbers released by ECU. Feel free to claim whatever you wish.