Take away the non-Division I-AA's from Cavan and he has a losing record too.

ohhhhhh but not in 1996 Cavan went 9-3 AND a playoff birth. Hamilton couldn't get a playoff birth even with two 1st team all-americans on his team in 1997.

Two All-Americans are nothing when your entire administration are plotting to destroy you.

In looking back at your posts you show an incredible lack of knowledge of ETSU football and even refute your own arguements.

The "Paul Hamilton is the worst ETSU coach ever" when there are guys like Don Riley and Roy Fraizer around is a comment that stands alone- but how about this.

You criticize play calling. You say Hamilton was simplistic, then say he was trying to run the option.

NOW WHAT IS IT?

Furthermore, in '97, I have a freshman quarterback. On top of that, my regular quarterback who was supposed to start that year goes down and is injured for the season in the preseason.

Second-string freshman QB and new receivers.

Yeah, I could see where you think this team should have a complex playbook!

That would have destroyed Wells.

By the arguements you are using- NO ETSU coach could be considered successful (which might be a reason why ETSU isn't playing football anymore).

John Robert Bell followed an undefeated and one-win season with a winless season after injuries decimated the team.

Check that- the first thing that happens to Hamilton is he loses his quarterback and he goes 7-4 after a 9-2 season. Bell- perhaps the greatest figure in the program's history- follows up 18-1-2 with no wins due to injuries.

Cavan benefited from Keener Fry promoting football- a move in hindsight that appeared to have cost him his job when Paul Stanton replaced Dr. Nicks.

But even he followed up the '94 Bucs, which went 6-5, with a 4-7 season that included an 0-5 start.

The criticism of Cavan at that time was strong. He was thought to be a guy who could get ETSU to .500 but no further.

By the way, just out of curiosity-

Chuck Noll, Bill Parcells, Joe Paterno and Bill Walsh.

Got that list? Okay.

Now, let's ask this-

Jon Gruden, Sam Wyche, Dave Wannstedt, and Tommy Prothro.

What group of coaches would you like to take?

Just answer that for me.

You need to check your facts Pitt. What is all of this talk of new receivers in 1997? I am looking back at an old Football Media Guide (Yes I still have one) B.J Adigun who is the all time leading receiver in ETSU history was a senior in 1997!! Adigun was also Offensive player of the year in the Socon in 1997. Adigun was also 1st team All-american in 1997. Anthony Stringfield was also a Senior on the 1997 team and he is 8th all-time for ETSU in receptions. Then we have Lamar Cooper who was a Sophomore in 1997 and is 3rd all-time in receiving yards. But ohhhhh no we were inexperienced at the reciever end. PLEASE tell me how?!?!?

Next you talk like having a freshman QB is such a bad thing well how about this Wells' threw for 2,404 yards in his Fresham year that is good for 3rd all-time in ETSU history. But nooooo he is a Freshman that will screw up the whole chemistry of the team.

Next Hamilton's playbook was very simplistic especially towards the end and included in that simple playbook was one variation of the option that he would always use. If you go back in my posts you will see that I said Hamilton got to the point where he only used 4 plays. These plays were QB draw, Run up the Middle, Option to the left, and Go Deep. Now I will say in 97 his playbook did have a little more variation but in the games he lost specifically the Chatt game and The Citadel game the moron tried to run the option most of the game(which he failed miserably at) and he DIDN'T do what worked with him against App State and Furman which was pass heavy.

Finally while I have the media guide open just listen to all of the awards ETSU players won in 1997.

1st All-American
WR B.J. Adigun
LB Mario Hankerson

Socon Awards
Offensive Player of the Year: WR B.J. Adigun
Freshman of the Year: QB Todd Wells
Defensive Player of the Year: LB Mario Hankerson

All-Southern Conference
WR B.J. Adigun
FB Brian Edwards
LB Mario Hankerson
OT Sam Haynie
RET Anthony Springfield
OT David Sutton
TB Brandon Walker

That is 7 players that made all Socon! and Two All-Americans and Hamilton could only get 7 wins out of that. That is pitiful. And just for comparison sake in 1996 ETSU only had ONE..JUST ONE player that made all Socon and that was DE James Russel yet with only one player on all Socon they went 10-3 and a playoff birth.

That shows how sorry of a Coach Hamilton was. End of story.

Adigun didn't start in '96. Satterfield and Johnson did. Both were gone in '97 (Satterfield flunked out, I forget if Johnson was a senior in '96 or not).

Maybe that is a damnation of Cavan for starting Satterfield ahead of Adigun. I don't know. But I am not here to bury Cavan.

Why, with these receivers posting such records under Hamilton, do you then say he is such a poor coach?

And I was a big Wells fan. I wanted him to start ahead of Jamey Chadwell BEFORE Chadwell's injury.

But still, you have a freshman quarterback, he throws for those numbers, and you don't want to give the head coach, a former QB coach at ETSU who doesn't operate with an offensive coordinator, NO CREDIT?

And no credit for all those awards for Hamilton?

It's witch-hunt time!

A few other things.

I'm looking at the schedules both the '96 and the '97 team played.

In '96 the Bucs played only four Division I schools during the regular season with winning records- East Carolina, Marshall, Appalachian, and Furman.

In '97 the Bucs played SIX Division I schools with winning records- Appalachian, Furman, Georgia Southern, Elon, Citadel, and Chattanooga.

While the '96 schedule was more top-heavy with ECU and Marshall, overall the Southern Conference appeared to be much tougher in '97. You're talking about three teams with winning records in '96.

Look, Nuck, I used to be like you. I saw 10-3 and wondered why Hamilton couldn't build off it.

After further research, however, I learned.

By the way, why won't you answer what group of coaches you'd take?

Now, incidentily, you want to bash Hamilton for a poor job at Elon.

Yet by your own logic, Hamilton did a great job!

Hamilton won three games his rookie season with the Phoenix. It was an improvement from 2003 (3-8 after inheriting a 2-10 team)!

Now, folks, I'm really not trying to go on here and say that Hamilton is the second coming of Lombardi or even that he did do a good job at Elon. I simply don't know anything about what he did at Elon.

But I am going to say that he did a superior job at a difficult time at ETSU.

Quote:While the '96 schedule was more top-heavy with ECU and Marshall, overall the Southern Conference appeared to be much tougher in '97. You're talking about three teams with winning records in '96.

Look, Nuck, I used to be like you. I saw 10-3 and wondered why Hamilton couldn't build off it.

Hamilton had a ton of talent you can't deny that after what I posted and for him to not be able to go just 8-3 with 7 All-Socon selections is inexcusable. And you know if Hamilton just would have won one more game in 1997 he probably would have made the playoffs and I would be off his back. But he couldn't. He couldn't beat Chatt, and The Citadel on his home field or James Madison. There wasn't much difference in the level of talent from 1996 and 1997 in fact the 1997 team might have been more talented. There is a big difference between 9-2 and 7-4. The only Socon team ETSU lost to in 1996 was Marshal who had Randy Moss and Chad Pennigton. Yet Hamilton lost 3 socon games all 3 of which was on his home field and that is inexcusable for the kind of talent he had.

Actually, during '97 ETSU was 3-3 against Division I teams with winning records.

So was the '96 team.

Now, I'm not going to come out here and tell you that I was happy with the James Madison loss in '97. I thought they should have won the game too.

But a new coaching staff, third game, road game, freshman QB, new receivers, good program as opposition albeit in a bad year.

What's inexcusable is to not understand that is generally a traditional "stub your toe" game. I remember picking against ETSU that week in the JC Press football contest. You could see it coming a mile away.

Again, I don't mean to pit Cavan against Hamilton or vice versa because I think they were both very fine coaches.

But it seems you're going off on this one loss to James Madison 10 years ago.

How can you do that, and then give Mike Cavan a free pass for the '95 loss to VMI?

By the way- since we're talking about it- let's see if we can't get some trivia going here-

A- That 30-23 loss to VMI- what Keydets assistant coach in that game is now an NFL head coach?

B- Who did Todd Wells backup at quarterback during Wells' first two years in high school?

C- WON'T SOMEBODY TELL ME IF JERRY FALWELL GOT HIS LIMO?

See Pitt its not JUST the James Madison loss it's also The Citadel and UTC loss on our home field. I will give you the stub your toe loss however here are 3 games we should have won. It would have been acceptable to go 2 for 3 in these games and even if they went 1-3 they probably still would have made the playoffs but Hamilton went 0-3 in those games and I just don't think that is acceptable for a team that routed App State and Furman on the road.

Anyway I have no idea how Jerry Falwell got his Limo. Please enlighten us!!

I played for both Hamilton (assistant) and Reilly. Well actually, I only played in the spring with Reilly before I chose not to take my 5th year. If I remember right, there were 15 5th year seniors ready for Reilly's first season. By the time, he got through with Spring, he only had two left. I could be wrong on the 15 5th year seniors but I am at least close. They guy was a complete goof ball and his assistants were a bunch of dumbasses. After I told them I was declining my fifth year, my position coach asked me if I wanted to stay on to help the other guys learn the system. To this day, I am convinced it's because he couldn't do it by himself. There were a couple of practices where some of the players were close to going at it with the coaches. I felt like taking a swing at my coach in the weight room one day. I actually can't remember the name of the equipment but it was basically an incline squat machine where you pushed the weights up a 45% incline. As I was thrusting forward my coach pushed the small of my back down nearly buckling me with 350 - 400 lbs on the damn machine.

I had played football for 17 years and it was the most insane football related thing I have ever been a part of.

Once again, it gets back to a poor administration decision to fire Mike Ayers. Coming off a 5-6 record and an NC State win with I think 15th 5th year seniors for next year.

I will find out if anyone I know can confirm or deny the limo story

Buc Wrote:Once again, it gets back to a poor administration decision to fire Mike Ayers. Coming off a 5-6 record and an NC State win with I think 15th 5th year seniors for next year.

What was their reason(s) for firing him ?

5-6 is not that unusual at ETSU.

The real answer is I don't know since they weren't discussing these decisions with a 21 year old. Technically, speaking they may not have even fired him. I used the word "fire" to include forced out. The administration at that time may have even said he wanted to leave although I don't see how you go from Southern Conference to Div II Wofford. Keep in mind that the facilities at Wofford were no where near what they are today. ETSU was coming off of a .500 record over the past two years which is an improvement over its history with several 5th year seniors for the upcoming season. His last year, the team was nationally ranked at times and beat NC State which beat Clemson a few weeks earlier when they were ranked #1. I am not trying to suggest that we were better than Clemson. I am just trying to make the point that the 1987 teams had several games where we were really good. We definitely were starting to believe this thing had turned around for good and we had something to build off of.

Most people I know (pro-football crowd) thought that the administration even back then was trying to get rid of football. I know that the football team's relationship with the general student body was improved and good. Apparently a few years before I got there the football team had a couple of incidents with the frats. I think our team GPA was above average for the student body and the other athletic teams. I am not aware of any major "police" incidents that would have embarrased the university. I can assure you that Coach Ayers was a disciplinarian and he didn't put up with any crap.
We all know what kind of coach he turned out to be.

I will answer the question with a question... If the record wasn't an issue, basically the whole team was coming back, apparently off-the field behavior wasn't an issue, academics wasn't an issue, why would you get rid of a coach?

Salary demands? I assume this wasn't the issue since he went to a Div II school.

I had heard that the administration felt like they needed a local guy to boost support which is why they had interest in Riley. Again, what a joke.

My speculation is that the administration, current and past, has never fully embraced football.

Completely agree with your assesment on Riley. He was clueless. I returned for his first year after not going thru Spring practice in 88. I walked back on to help with the kicking crisis. Heck he couldn;t even get my name right.

Even then it seemed as though the President (Beller) could not stand football. And Buc you are right about Ayers and his no nonsense attitude. He wouldn't put up with any crap. I enjoyed playing for him and Hamilton. I forget who else interviewed for the job after Ayers moved on to Wofford and took the pretty much the entire staff with him, but there had to be better candidates. But they went the cheap way I feel.

If memory serves, I think Ayers left on his own volition.

I have lived in both this and the Asheville-Greenville-Spartansburg area. I can tell you that even as a Division II team Wofford had its act together much better than ETSU (sort of like Tusculum does). I remember watching Wofford games on TV in 1982, for crying out loud!

I don't know about the facilities. However, if you see where a coach has gone from 0-10-1 to 6-5 and 5-6 with wins against Furman and NCSU (teams in the backyard of Wofford) you can see why he'd be of interest to a program trying to improve itself.

Think about how little discussion there was about a coach going from Division I-AA to Division II.

In hindsight, Ayers departure was the first step in getting rid of football.

AND NOBODY REACTED TO IT! It seemed like the most natural thing in the world.

And this happens all the time at ETSU. Ken Campbell to Walters State. Janice Shelton to the Olympics. Keener Fry to become a No. 2 guy at Wyoming (which actually did get some "what's going on here" discussion from Chip Kessler in a Sports Talk article, but nothing more). Frank Pergolizzi to, basically, the unemployment line before taking a move that most would consider a step down to Southeast Louisiana but he has built into a step up.

WE NEED A MORE CRITICAL MEDIA. It's just that simple.

PittsburghBucs Wrote:Think about how little discussion there was about a coach going from Division I-AA to Division II.

Think about this, the baseball coach left Div I to go to JUCO because he said he wanted to go somewhere they were interested in winning.
Doesn't say much for ETSU sports when coaches drop down to a lower level on thier on.

R

And I said the same thing above.

One thing here- I heard an interesting story that for Title IX reasons baseball was really being hit hard in that era. There was probably more scholarships at WSU than at ETSU at the time.