SFA was active here but have disappeared with their LSC announcement.

RCI I think you mean SLC, I do not think SFA is good enough for the Lone Star Conference. I have to disagree with you on this one my friend, I can not recall ever seeing a SFA poster on this site. They pretty much stick to their own board and are pretty anti social.

CBU and GCU have a long history with each other.
[/quote]

So? What does that have to do with them now and the WAC? We have history with schools. That doesn't mean we go around advocating for them to start leaving and following us around, especially if that means hurting the conference they are currently in. You took SU with you, not enough? That's fine, SU was an outlier as well and very long travel. If they wanted to go, and were invited, then fine. The question remains why do you actually advocate to take people? Better for you, better for them, who cares about anyone else? But transactions are part of life and all that matter right? They are the norm now and should be encouraged.

(05-31-2024 09:29 AM)Outsider Wrote:  CBU and GCU have a long history with each other.

So? What does that have to do with them now and the WAC? We have history with schools. That doesn't mean we go around advocating for them to start leaving and following us around, especially if that means hurting the conference they are currently in. You took SU with you, not enough? That's fine, SU was an outlier as well and very long travel. If they wanted to go, and were invited, then fine. The question remains why do you actually advocate to take people? Better for you, better for them, who cares about anyone else? But transactions are part of life and all that matter right? They are the norm now and should be encouraged.
[/quote]

You asked why I would like to see CBU join up with GCU in the WCC and I gave you the reason why. I get that you are sad that your rivals came to the WAC with you then have left your school behind one by one. You will join them sooner than later most likely. Hang in there!

(05-31-2024 11:58 AM)Lopes87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2024 09:29 AM)Outsider Wrote:  CBU and GCU have a long history with each other.

So? What does that have to do with them now and the WAC? We have history with schools. That doesn't mean we go around advocating for them to start leaving and following us around, especially if that means hurting the conference they are currently in. You took SU with you, not enough? That's fine, SU was an outlier as well and very long travel. If they wanted to go, and were invited, then fine. The question remains why do you actually advocate to take people? Better for you, better for them, who cares about anyone else? But transactions are part of life and all that matter right? They are the norm now and should be encouraged.

You asked why I would like to see CBU join up with GCU in the WCC and I gave you the reason why. I get that you are sad that your rivals came to the WAC with you then have left your school behind one by one. You will join them sooner than later most likely. Hang in there!
[/quote]

Not sad, they can do what they want. We do have value together, and it's nice to continue rivalries. Still, if you choose to leave you choose to create new ones.

Wait a minute. Is this Utahs-to-Summit concept inclusive of the MVFC, or are UT and SUU counting on the UAC for football?

I’d say one looks more likely than the other.

(05-31-2024 03:27 AM)Spolovilo4EVER Wrote:  RCI I think you mean SLC, I do not think SFA is good enough for the Lone Star Conference. I have to disagree with you on this one my friend, I can not recall ever seeing a SFA poster on this site. They pretty much stick to their own board and are pretty anti social.

Oops, it was a mistake to transpose those letters. I meant Southland... But there were some discussions I had with SFA maybe a year ago but as time evolved and it was known they were heading back to the SLC, those same people disappeared. SFA is a hard school to figure since they have had some reduction in students in recent years. Maybe they have stabilized now but time seems to have hurt them.

N.B. Seems like the old Lone Star Conference is now a dim memory, but for DII it was kinda fun.

RCI honestly, I think Angelo State and WTAMU, ( and now even UTPB for that matter as well as UCO) would be more competitive and have greater fan support than SFA/LAMAR/RGV. The East and South Texas schools just can not seem to get it together to be competitive at this level in the Major sports (FB MBB) except maybe baseball, but that is not a revenue generating sport in general.

It just all seems kinda weird. Does SFA have money issues? You would think joining the UT system, they would be flush. Did UT demand this? SFA’s budget was 23 million or so.
Now they join a conference where 13 million will have you in the upper echelon. Will SFA continue to fund at the top of the conference, or will we see those numbers decline? Feels like the Southland move, and cancelling home and homes were money decisions:)
Leaving like a thief in the night just raises questions.

(06-01-2024 01:00 AM)Spolovilo4EVER Wrote:  RCI honestly, I think Angelo State and WTAMU, ( and now even UTPB for that matter as well as UCO) would be more competitive and have greater fan support than SFA/LAMAR/RGV. The East and South Texas schools just can not seem to get it together to be competitive at this level in the Major sports (FB MBB) except maybe baseball, but that is not a revenue generating sport in general.

Interesting question for a Saturday.

It looks like Lamar's is at least near break even, and probably a revenue maker based on attendance, and SLC's average cost for schools to fund a baseball season. AthleticDirectorU had a 2022 study of the average cost to fund baseball by conference. The SLC's average cost was $222,096. The WAC's average was $349,936 for the same time period.

Link: AthleticDirectorU article

Lamar's average attendance this year was 1,237 per the NCAA statistics page, just below GCU's 1,337 average attendance this year. The page also shows Lamar had 28 home games. Extending season ticket, group ticket, mini-season ticket, and per game ticket prices, average attendance, and number of home games, I estimate a worst case of around $190,000 and a best case of $250,000 and up for Lamar.

Other factors against the average cost involve travel. Lamar only had 4 games outside the Southland Conference boundaries this season. 3 of the games were in Norman, OK against OU, a series Lamar swept 3 wins/0 losses. One game was to Mobile, AL against South Alabama. There were some good teams from a long way away on the schedule. They were just games held in Beaumont at Vincent-Beck.

Here's WAC attendance for comparison in case anyone wants to run the numbers. Just eyeballing, it looks like very few, if any WAC programs, would break even.

School.....................................Average..................Games
UTRGV....................................2,142.........................29
Grand Canyon.........................1,337.........................27
Utah Valley.................................879..........................24
Utah Tech...................................544..........................27
Tarleton State.............................437..........................24
Abilene Christian........................418..........................30
UT Arlington...............................408..........................24
Calfiornia Baptist........................372..........................32
Stephen F. Austin.......................280..........................24

For comparison, the SLC big three were
Southeastern Louisiana................1,397.....................35
Lamar............................................1,237.....................28
McNeese.......................................1,016.....................31

Link to NCAA Statistics page.
NCAA Statistics page

The page is easy to use. Just select the sport in the "Select Sport" pick list. Then select the division. Next, select "Misc Reports". Finally, select "Attendance" or whatever else you might be interested in.

(06-01-2024 01:00 AM)Spolovilo4EVER Wrote:  RCI honestly, I think Angelo State and WTAMU, ( and now even UTPB for that matter as well as UCO) would be more competitive and have greater fan support than SFA/LAMAR/RGV. The East and South Texas schools just can not seem to get it together to be competitive at this level in the Major sports (FB MBB) except maybe baseball, but that is not a revenue generating sport in general.

I changed it up a bit and took a look at attendance as indicator of fan support comparing selected most recent former / current Texas WAC members. Current / future SLC members had the highest attendance in all but Football and Women's soccer. Tarleton had the highest football attendance by a large margin. Tarleton also eaked out the highest in women's soccer 518 to 506 for Lamar with both in 500 seat stadiums.

I looked at WTAMU and Angelo St. WTAMU had the highest women's basketball with 1,301. WTAMU football was in the ballpark. Angelo St was more of an also ran.

Men's Basketball

SFA...................2,274 Winner
Lamar................1,990
UTA...................1,777
Tarleton.............1,714
ACU..................1,554
UTRGV.............1,310

Women's Basketball

SFA...................1,288 Winner
UTRGV..............1,224
UTA...................1,080
Lamar................1,048
ACU..................1,006
Tarleton................805

Baseball

UTRGV..............2,142 Winner
Lamar................1,237
Tarleton................437
ACU.....................418
UTA......................408

Football

Tarleton.............18,697 Winner
SFA.....................8,100
ACU....................7,090
Lamar..................5,643

Softball

Lamar...................418 Winner
Tarleton................274
UTA......................206
SFA......................123
ACU.....................118

Women's Soccer

Tarleton................518 Winner
Lamar...................506
SFA......................171
ACU.....................160

(06-01-2024 10:27 AM)Oscar P Wrote:  It just all seems kinda weird. Does SFA have money issues? You would think joining the UT system, they would be flush. Did UT demand this? SFA’s budget was 23 million or so.
Now they join a conference where 13 million will have you in the upper echelon. Will SFA continue to fund at the top of the conference, or will we see those numbers decline? Feels like the Southland move, and cancelling home and homes were money decisions:)
Leaving like a thief in the night just raises questions.

So much dis-information. $13 million for upper echelon is not even close.

Revenue & Expenses - Here are the most recent unadjusted Revenue/Expense numbers from the Department of Education OPE Equity in Athletics database for revenue and expense. I'm using that because it picks up spending and revenues for private universities. I'm limiting the view to universities in Texas in the WAC and SLC.

Game expenses/Travel - I also added Game Expenses/Travel from the Knight-Newhouse College Athletics Database to get a rough idea of the travel component. To normalize one would either need to add $'s to SLC or subtract $'s from WAC schools For example, Tarleton's travel is $3,662,076 while Lamar's is only $1,635,897. Tarleton's overall expenses of $21,124,971 are burdened with $3,662,076. On the other hand, Lamar's $21,287,614 are only burdened with $1,635,897. That's a little over $2,000,000 difference. Stephen F. Austin's overall expenses are $24,962,955 and are burdened with $3,420,195 for the reporting period, about $1,800,000 more than Lamar's. In adjusted dollars, Lamar actually had more available funds not burdened by travel than Tarleton. I imagine that would extend to Abilene Christian as well if ACU's travel expenses were reportable.

We're validity checking against $13 million

University..............................Revenue.............................Expenses........Travel/Game Exp
Stephen F. Austin...................$24,962,955........................$24,962,955......$3,420,195
Incarnate Word.......................$24,544,713.......................$24,544,713 .........Private
Abilene Christian....................$23,809,978........................$23,809,978.......Private
Tarleton...................................$22,035,629.......................$21,124,971 ......$3,662,076
Lamar......................................$21,287,614.......................$21,287,614........$1,635,897
Houston Christian....................$20,167,919.......................$20,167,919........Private
UT Arlington.............................$17,403,161.......................$17,403,161........No report
UT Rio Grande Valley..............$15,997,018.......................$15,997,018.......$2,799,737
Texas A&M-Commerce............$15,344,594.......................$15,568,324........No report
Texas A&M-Corpus Christi.......$15,046,826.......................$15,046,826.......$2,169,497

Non-football programs

I didn't list the Louisiana SLC schools, but travel expenses for McNeese and Southeastern Louisiana are $1,673,632 for McNeese and $1,683,008 for Southeastern Louisiana so they correlate pretty closely with Lamar's reported expenses.

The raw unadjusted numbers are misleading when trying to compare programs. The actual situations need to be accounted for. Also, one can see that none of the numbers are even close to the stated $13 million. There are 3 SLC programs out of the future 12 which are $13 million or below. One of those is a non-football school with no known plans to add football.

My question was would SFA continue to fund at 23 mil. I looked at an article from Lake Charles that had McNeese budget at 13 mil, and tops in the Southland of LA schools.
Such little man syndrome. The numbers you quoted were high. I don’t know them all, but I know Tarletons. It’s not 23 mil. Lamar is way up there. That’s good. Good for you. Why you don’t win stuff is another discussion. I just wondered if SFA’s budget would decrease, or was having to decrease, hence the move.

(06-02-2024 05:02 PM)Oscar P Wrote:  My question was would SFA continue to fund at 23 mil. I looked at an article from Lake Charles that had McNeese budget at 13 mil, and tops in the Southland of LA schools.
Such little man syndrome. The numbers you quoted were high. I don’t know them all, but I know Tarletons. It’s not 23 mil. Lamar is way up there. That’s good. Good for you. Why you don’t win stuff is another discussion. I just wondered if SFA’s budget would decrease, or was having to decrease, hence the move.

Conf..NCAA....University.........................Revenue.............Expenses
1......201...Stephen F. Austin...............$24,962,955.......$24,962,955
2......205...Incarnate Word..................$24,544,713.......$24,544,713
3......237...Lamar...............................$21,287,614.......$21,287,614
4......245...Houston Christian...............$20,167,919.......$20,167,919
5......285...UTRGV..............................$15,997,018.......$15,997,018
6......291...Southeastern Louisiana.......$15,750,278.......$15,750,278
7......293...Texas A&M Commerce.........$15,344,594.......$15,568,324
8......301...Texas A&M Corpus Christi....$15,046,826.......$15,046,826
9......303...McNeese...........................$14,926,562.......$14,991,656
10....326...Northwestern State.............$13,074,407.......$13,074,407
11....334...Nicholls.............................$11,658,725.......$11,658,725
10....345...New Orleans......................$8,497,274...........$8,497,274

These are the most recent SLC numbers. I was interpreting "upper echelon" in terms of budget; not performance.

For this year in terms of performance and turning championships it could be looked at several ways in addition to financially. (In my working years, I was a financial analyst so I was hit by tunnel vision to "show me the money".)

About the "Why you don’t win stuff is another discussion.", how about this?
1. Looking at the big two; football and basketball
Under that standard, Nicholls, UIW, and Lamar were 1, 2, & 3 in football.
Another way would be by sport
Men's basketball - In men's basketball, it would be McNeese, Texas A&M-Corpus Christi, and Nicholls in the top three. (Lamar was one game out of the top 3.) Tournament winner was McNeese.
Women's basketball - Lamar, Texas A&M-Corpus Christi, and Southeastern Lousiana. 1, 2, &3; tournament winner was Texas A&M-Corpus Christi
Baseball - Lamar, Nicholls, & New Orleans. Tournament winner was Nicholls
Soccer - Lamar, Texas A&M-Commerce, and McNeese. Tournament winner was Lamar
Softball - McNeese, Southeastern Louisiana, and Nicholls

Commissioner's cup might be another perspective.
Overall winner - Lamar
1st Lamar
2nd McNeese
3rd Incarnate Word

This year it looks like Lamar had a pretty good year "winning stuff".
Commissioner's Cup - Overall Winner; Men-1st; Women-Tie for 1st
Football - 3rd place after coach change
Men's basketball - 4th place regular season; semi-final in tournament
Women's basketball - 1st place season; tournament finals
Baseball - 1st place regular season; tournament semi-finals
Women's Soccer - 1st place regular season; tournament winner
Softball - 5th place finish; 0-2 in tournament
Men's Tennis - 2nd place (tie)
Men's Golf - 2nd place to Augusta; 1st place SLC full members
Cross Country - 1st place women's
Indoor Track & Field - 2nd place, women
Outdoor Track & Field - 3rd place, women

National rankings
Baseball- Ranked in top 25 in two national polls this year (Baseball American and Perfect Game; receiving votes throughout season in other polls)
Women's Basketball - Ranked in Mid-Major top 25 poll this year.
Women's Soccer - Ranked in Top Drawer Soccer Top 25 national poll.

Here's a link to the WAC Commissioner's Cup standings for comparison.
https://wacsports.com/sports/2023/7/24/c...23-24.aspx

Here's a link to the WAC Commissioner's Cup for our year. Looks like we were ahead of some teams.

https://wacsports.com/sports/2023/4/28/c...21-22.aspx

(06-01-2024 01:00 AM)Spolovilo4EVER Wrote:  RCI honestly, I think Angelo State and WTAMU, ( and now even UTPB for that matter as well as UCO) would be more competitive and have greater fan support than SFA/LAMAR/RGV. The East and South Texas schools just can not seem to get it together to be competitive at this level in the Major sports (FB MBB) except maybe baseball, but that is not a revenue generating sport in general.

I agree. When we use to play Angelo State both schools would attend the away games fairly well. I remember doing it decades ago when I was even in school. I am not sure about UTPB. They need to mature a little more. I just found out this year they are in Odessa and Midland.

(06-02-2024 05:02 PM)Oscar P Wrote:  My question was would SFA continue to fund at 23 mil. I looked at an article from Lake Charles that had McNeese budget at 13 mil, and tops in the Southland of LA schools.
Such little man syndrome. The numbers you quoted were high. I don’t know them all, but I know Tarletons. It’s not 23 mil. Lamar is way up there. That’s good. Good for you. Why you don’t win stuff is another discussion. I just wondered if SFA’s budget would decrease, or was having to decrease, hence the move.

Take another look at my reply. I didn't have $23M for Tarleton. I did report a little over $23M for Abilene Christian just above Tarleton. Could that have been it. Tarleton's was a little less. If not, other differences might be the source and timing. My numbers are from the recently updated OPE Equity in Athletics database from the US Government Department of Education. (I double checked the numbers that I posted, and they tie with the data provided by the government database.) It's time period is typically from the middle of one year to the middle of the following years. Right now it is reporting Mid 2022-Mid 2023. Other services like USAToday's and the Knight-Newhouse College Athletic Database use OPE as a source for their numbers, but they are on a lag most of the time. Since they report on a lag, the OPE Equity in Athletics database has more current numbers.

Here's OPE Equity in Athletics if you want to review or use it in the future. It's a great site.

Link to OPE Equity in Athletics Database

Other sources are the USAToday NCAA Finance: Revenue and Expense report. That one is currently about one year behind OPE.

Link to USAToday NCAA Finance: Revenue and Expenses report

Another great source is the Knight-Newhouse College Athletics Database. It is also on about a one year lag from OPE.

Link to Knight-Newhouse College Athletics Database

The OPE Equity in Athletics site gives this as its data source and time period in case you want to follow up.

ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT INFORMATION
Director: Lonn Reisman
Reporting Year: 09/01/2022 - 08/31/2023
Reporting Official: Simon Smith
Title: Senior Database Developer

WAC D1360 video about SFA and the future of the WAC--detailed analysis as usual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adGCqtXq_8g

(06-03-2024 06:38 PM)TOPSTRAIGHT Wrote:  WAC D1360 video about SFA and the future of the WAC--detailed analysis as usual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adGCqtXq_8g

It's a good video. It doesn't really discuss anything different than what we already have but it gives good financial info and perspective. The scheduling of the SLC is something that is an advantage for those that want to see more than one game on a given day. SFA's student body is so concentrated, always has been. ACU is the exact opposite. Besides being such a small student body, ACU has a huge international percentage, then many who are not from the central Texas area. Now, ACU has a larger part that aren't even on campus. The dynamics and business decisions of those two opposite realities are striking, but also show how hard it is at times for various schools as they work together in conferences.

Saw this the other day it was called prisoner dilemma

UT-UVU-SUU
Everyone has to trust each other and believe the Summit and the Big Sky won't invite the 3 Utah schools

UTA

Everyone has to trust each other and believe the MVC won't invite them or that the SLC won't offer a lifeboat to the Mavs

CBU

Everyone has to trust each other and believe that WCC doesn't invite them

ACU and TSU

Everyone has to trust each other and believe that CUSA won't invite TSU and the other options are lifeboats to one of these three SLC/Summit/ASUN

Any D2 that joins the WAC has to trust that more schools don't leave after joining.


Reminds me of the the scene in the show The Office when in the conference room Dwight Micheal and Andy are in a standoff with each other.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb5DITStXlI

(06-04-2024 09:54 AM)Lopes87 Wrote:  Saw this the other day it was called prisoner dilemma

UT-UVU-SUU
Everyone has to trust each other and believe the Summit and the Big Sky won't invite the 3 Utah schools

UTA

Everyone has to trust each other and believe the MVC won't invite them or that the SLC won't offer a lifeboat to the Mavs

CBU

Everyone has to trust each other and believe that WCC doesn't invite them

ACU and TSU

Everyone has to trust each other and believe that CUSA won't invite TSU and the other options are lifeboats to one of these three SLC/Summit/ASUN

Any D2 that joins the WAC has to trust that more schools don't leave after joining.


Reminds me of the the scene in the show The Office when in the conference room Dwight Micheal and Andy are in a standoff with each other.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb5DITStXlI

There is truth to the scenario. Which scenario do we get? ? ? ? ? ?