(07-16-2023 08:44 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 10:20 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 05:57 PM)Buckeye22 Wrote:  They very much thought about Northwestern and the military schools in the early 80s when they were trying to stay D1A.

Think about schools on NW level. Those are the choices. It's pretty select.

And Northwestern is soon to have an Ivy-caliber football stadium, so they've got that going for them, which is nice.

Their current stadium is Ivy level. Most existing Ivy stadiums are showing their age and are oversized for the current attendance levels. The new stadium will have way more bells and whistles than any Ivy League facility.

What new stadium? They just lost their chief funder and chief fundraiser.

How has nobody mentioned the obvious here: Boise St.

1. Strong in football
2. R1
3. ...
4. Profit!

(07-15-2023 08:08 PM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 05:33 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 01:25 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  MIT, Johns Hopkins, maybe Carnegie Mellon and NYU.

Outside of the states of current Ivy League school I limited my choices to Maine, Vermont, Maryland, Delaware, DC, and maybe Virginia. I looked at Forbes and USNWR rankings, acceptance rates, and endowments. They also had to be private. The school would probably need to be no worse than any of the current school's rankings and have an acceptance rate under 10%.


Acceptance rate USNWR Rank Forbes Rank Endowment
Brown 5.40% 13 19 $6.5 billion
Columbia 3.70% 18 5 $13.3 billion
Cornell 8.70% 17 16 $9.8 billion
Dartmouth 6.20% 12 14 $8.1 billion
Harvard 3.40% 3 (tie) 15 $50.9 billion
Penn 5.70% 7 10 $20.7 billion
Princeton 4.00% 1 4 $35.8 billion
Yale 4.60% 3 (tie) 8 $42.3 billion
MIT 4.00% 2 1 $24.6 billion
Johns Hopkins 8.00% 7 18 $9.3 billion
Georgetown 12.00% 22 (tie) 21 $9.3 billion
Carnegie Mellon 14.00% 22 (tie) 46 $3.0 billion
NYU 13.00% 25 60 $5.8 billion
Tufts 11.00% 32 32 $2.4 billion

If the Ivy League was actually interested in expanding it seems that only MIT would be guaranteed to get in with Johns Hopkins and Georgetown being a maybe and Carnegie Mellon, NYU, and Tufts being stretches.

Wouldn't they have to play football? That narrows the field considerably. And while Georgetown is private, it is also Catholic (Jesuit), and that could be enough to blackball them. I don't see the Ivy League adding any school. It's not like they need to.

I figured this was a hypothetical situation where the Ivy League was going to admit at least one school. I don't expect the Ivy League to actually expand. There is so much more to admitting a school that taking 2 ranking systems at face value, endowment, and how many people they let in.

Yes, not having a football team currently would count against a team in a real life situation, and possibly so would Georgetown being Catholic. I didn't want to delve too deep when I wasn't taking it 100% seriously.

I would figure any team that didn't have a football stadium could use a nearby stadium or afford to build their own. They all have stadiums if they don't have teams except for NYU which uses Gaelic Park at Manhattan college for soccer. Starting a team for NYU would be easier than making sure any stadium was large enough.

(07-15-2023 07:25 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  The admissions numbers for MIT and Georgetown are understated because neither accepts the Common Application. Were they do to so, the acceptance rate drops by about half.

I'm sure it makes it easier to determine who to admit, but it still is the acceptance rate.

The "couch potatoes at New York University" aren't getting into the Ivy. NYU is the fallback choice for Ivy applicants, they're not even T1. Georgetown is the same. 1440-1450 average SAT, far behind GT, Duke, Northwestern, Vandy, Stanford, Rice, MIT, Cal Tech and Johns Hopkins.

(07-16-2023 12:19 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  If the Ivy League were to expand, I think Georgetown would be the best choice. Adding DC to the NE cities would be a great fit, plus since the Ivys dominate elite levels of government it would be a natural to have the schools visit DC. Maybe if Georgetown joined the Ivy League they could build a 5k seat arena close to campus. Would be a huge blow to the Big East.

Georgetown is the to Ivy Academically as Fresno St is to the Pac. And the Ivies aren't worried about getting raided by Buc-ees.

(07-16-2023 01:15 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  The "couch potatoes at New York University" aren't getting into the Ivy. NYU is the fallback choice for Ivy applicants, they're not even T1. Georgetown is the same. 1440-1450 average SAT, far behind GT, Duke, Northwestern, Vandy, Stanford, Rice, MIT, Cal Tech and Johns Hopkins.

Those are NYU's numbers, not Georgetown.

But to be fair, the Ivy has a dismissive opinion of Georgetown, too.

(07-16-2023 01:34 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(07-16-2023 01:15 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  The "couch potatoes at New York University" aren't getting into the Ivy. NYU is the fallback choice for Ivy applicants, they're not even T1. Georgetown is the same. 1440-1450 average SAT, far behind GT, Duke, Northwestern, Vandy, Stanford, Rice, MIT, Cal Tech and Johns Hopkins.

Those are NYU's numbers, not Georgetown.

But to be fair, the Ivy has a dismissive opinion of Georgetown, too.

According to PrepScholar, Georgetown has an average SAT of 1450.

https://www.prepscholar.com/sat/s/colleg...scores-GPA

FWIW, I think that the Ivies have a dismissive opinion of the Service Academies, NW and Stanford. Probably everyone other than MIT and Cal Tech if we're being honest.

(07-15-2023 07:25 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 01:25 AM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  Acceptance rate USNWR Rank Forbes Rank Endowment
Brown 5.40% 13 19 $6.5 billion
Columbia 3.70% 18 5 $13.3 billion
Cornell 8.70% 17 16 $9.8 billion
Dartmouth 6.20% 12 14 $8.1 billion
Harvard 3.40% 3 (tie) 15 $50.9 billion
Penn 5.70% 7 10 $20.7 billion
Princeton 4.00% 1 4 $35.8 billion
Yale 4.60% 3 (tie) 8 $42.3 billion
MIT 4.00% 2 1 $24.6 billion
Johns Hopkins 8.00% 7 18 $9.3 billion
Georgetown 12.00% 22 (tie) 21 $9.3 billion
Carnegie Mellon 14.00% 22 (tie) 46 $3.0 billion
NYU 13.00% 25 60 $5.8 billion
Tufts 11.00% 32 32 $2.4 billion

The admissions numbers for MIT and Georgetown are understated because neither accepts the Common Application. Were they do to so, the acceptance rate drops by about half.

The dirty secret behind acceptance rates.

(07-16-2023 01:09 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-16-2023 08:44 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 10:20 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 05:57 PM)Buckeye22 Wrote:  They very much thought about Northwestern and the military schools in the early 80s when they were trying to stay D1A.

Think about schools on NW level. Those are the choices. It's pretty select.

And Northwestern is soon to have an Ivy-caliber football stadium, so they've got that going for them, which is nice.

Their current stadium is Ivy level. Most existing Ivy stadiums are showing their age and are oversized for the current attendance levels. The new stadium will have way more bells and whistles than any Ivy League facility.

What new stadium? They just lost their chief funder and chief fundraiser.

There have been calls for the project to be halted or put on hold but no final decision has been made that I know of. It may be just an academic point in the end but I wouldn't be shocked if they go ahead, regardless.

The school that has the history to be an Ivy is William & Mary, but I don't know how they'd feel about a public institution in the Ivy League.

Otherwise, the data tells us that it's a pretty small group. If we are looking for a new member who, at least, exceeds one Ivy in each of category of endowment, research funding, student body size, and admissions rate, it's not a long list. More than likely, you're looking for a school that is well above the lowest member in each and thus likely closer to the medians.

Current Ivy League
Smallest endowment - Brown at $6.5bn.
Median endowment - $17bn
Mean endowment - $23.425bn

Smallest endowment per student - Cornell at $382,812.50
Median endowment per student - $1,040,746
Mean endowment per student - $1,623,891

Least selective admission (highest admit rate) - Cornell at 8.7%
Median selectivity - 5%
Mean selectivity - 5.2%

Lowest R&D funding - Brown at $276.3 million
Median R&D - $1.131 billion
Mean R&D - $918 million

R&D adjusted by faculty size...(take these with a grain of salt, since they may not be apples to apples in terms of including part-time faculty)

Lowest R&D per faculty - Columbia at $251,395.00
Median R&D per faculty - $357,605.00
Mean R&D per faculty - $330,558.00

Nobel Laureates affiliated with Univ. (historical, not at present)

Lowest # of Nobels - Dartmouth with 16
Median - 48
Mean - 60

Lowest # of Rhodes Scholars - Brown with 49
Median - 64
Mean - 181

---------------------------------------------------

I compiled a list of the following institutions to compare them to the Ivy League minimum, median, and mean: Tufts, Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western Reserve, NYU, Chicago, Rochester, Washington U. in St. Louis, Emory, MIT, Rice, Boston U., Cal Tech, Georgetown, Northeastern, Tulane, Howard, George Washington, Johns Hopkins, and William & Mary.

I assigned a school 1 point for exceeding the lowest ranked Ivy in each category, 2 points if it exceeded the median or the mean, and 3 points if it exceed both the median and the mean.

Endowment
Min - $6.5b, Med - $17b, Mean - $23.4b

3 points: MIT
1 point: WashU, Chicago, JHU, Emory, Rice

Endowment Per Student
Min - $382,812; Med - $1,040,746; Mean - $1,623,891

3 points: MIT, Cal Tech
2 points: WashU
1 point: Rice, Chicago, Emory

Acceptance Rate
Highest - 8.7%, Med - 5%, Mean - 5.2%

1 point: Chicago, Cal Tech, MIT, Northeastern, Tulane, Rice

Total R&D Funding
Min - $276.3m; Med - $1.131b; Mean - $918m

3 points: JHU
2 points: NYU, WashU, MIT
1 point: Emory, BU, Chicago, Cal Tech, CWRU, Rochester, CMU, Georgetown

R&D Per Faculty - Take with a massive grain of salt as data is questionable
Min - $251,395.00; Med - $357,605.00; Mean $330,558.00

3 points: Cal Tech, MIT, JHU, Rochester
2 points: Emory
1 point: Rice, CMU, WashU

Nobel Laureates (All-Time) on Faculty When Awarded
Min - 16; Med - 48; Mean - 60

3 points: MIT, Chicago, JHU
1 point: Cal Tech, WashU, NYU

Rhodes Scholars
Min - 49; Median - 64; Mean - 181

3 points: Cal Tech
2 points: MIT, Chicago, JHU

Total Index Scores
19 - Harvard
18 - Yale
17 - MIT
16 - Princeton
13 - UPenn; Columbia
12 - Johns Hopkins; Cornell
9 - Brown; Dartmouth; Chicago; Cal Tech
7 - Washington Univ in St. Louis
5 - Emory; NYU
4 - Rice; Rochester
2 - Carnegie Mellon
1 - Boston Univ.; Case Western Reserve; Georgetown; Northeastern; Tulane
0 - Brandeis; George Washington; Howard; Tufts; William & Mary

So it would appear that MIT, Johns Hopkins, Chicago, and Cal Tech are the institutions that best fit within the Ivy League based on these metrics. Wash U. is in striking distance.

Memphis will soon join our sister schools like Harvard and Princeton in the Ivy League.

For the hell of it, because I'm a nerd, I built out my index score involving a number of P5 institutions that I picked myself (happy to figure out an institution if there's one missing you'd like to see). Here's where they'd fall on the metrics.

Endowment
Min - $6.5b, Med - $17b, Mean - $23.4b

3 points: Texas, Stanford
2 points: Notre Dame, Michigan
1 point: Northwestern, Texas A&M, Duke, Vanderbilt, Virginia, USC, Cal, Ohio St., UCLA

Endowment Per Student
Min - $382,812; Med - $1,040,746; Mean - $1,623,891

3 points: Stanford
2 points: Notre Dame
1 point: Texas, Vanderbilt, Duke, Northwestern, Virginia

Acceptance Rate
Highest - 8.7%, Med - 5%, Mean - 5.2%

3 points: Stanford
1 point: Northwestern, Duke, Vanderbilt

Total R&D Funding
Min - $276.3m; Med - $1.131b; Mean - $918m

3 points: Michigan, Washington, UCLA, Wisconsin, Stanford, Duke, Ohio St., UNC, Texas A&M, Pittsburgh
2 points: Georgia Tech, Vanderbilt, Florida, USC
1 point: Northwestern, Cal, Texas, Rutgers, Virginia

R&D Per Faculty - Take with a massive grain of salt as data is questionable
Min - $251,395.00; Med - $357,605.00; Mean $330,558.00

3 points: Georgia Tech, Wisconsin, Stanford, Cal, UCLA
1 point: Duke, Texas A&M, Washington

Nobel Laureates (All-Time) on Faculty When Awarded
Min - 16; Med - 48; Mean - 60

3 points: Cal, Stanford, Duke, Michigan
2 points: Northwestern
1 point: UNC, Virginia, Wisconsin, Washington, UCLA, Pittsburgh, Southern Cal, Notre Dame

Rhodes Scholars
Min - 49; Median - 64; Mean - 181

3 points: Stanford, Northwestern
2 points: Michigan, Cal

Total Index Score
21 - Stanford (higher than all existing Ivies by 2 points!)
10 - Cal-Berkeley; Duke; Michigan
9 - Northwestern
8 - UCLA
7 - Wisconsin
5 - Georgia Tech; Notre Dame; Texas; Texas A&M; Vanderbilt; Washington
4 - Ohio State; Pittsburgh; North Carolina; Southern California; Virginia
2 - Florida
1 - Rutgers

(07-16-2023 08:44 AM)whittx Wrote:  ...Most existing Ivy stadiums are showing their age and are oversized for the current attendance levels...

Man, Rice should be a shoo-in.

(07-16-2023 01:18 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-16-2023 12:19 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  If the Ivy League were to expand, I think Georgetown would be the best choice. Adding DC to the NE cities would be a great fit, plus since the Ivys dominate elite levels of government it would be a natural to have the schools visit DC. Maybe if Georgetown joined the Ivy League they could build a 5k seat arena close to campus. Would be a huge blow to the Big East.

Georgetown is the to Ivy Academically as Fresno St is to the Pac. And the Ivies aren't worried about getting raided by Buc-ees.

Hey, don't go hating on Buc-ees!! We just did get one here in the state of Alabama, lol!!

Interesting topic.

I think they’d let in Boston College because of the Jesuit tie.

(07-17-2023 09:16 AM)Garrettabc Wrote:  Interesting topic.

I think they’d let in Boston College because of the Jesuit tie.

Not strong enough academically for their tastes. The Boston area (specifically Cambridge, just like Harvard) school to be considered is 100% MIT.

Other people were right that maybe some of the western MA universities could be considered, but really it starts and ends with MIT in Massachusetts. MIT couldn't care less about sports though.

(07-17-2023 07:55 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(07-16-2023 01:18 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-16-2023 12:19 PM)Section 200 Wrote:  If the Ivy League were to expand, I think Georgetown would be the best choice. Adding DC to the NE cities would be a great fit, plus since the Ivys dominate elite levels of government it would be a natural to have the schools visit DC. Maybe if Georgetown joined the Ivy League they could build a 5k seat arena close to campus. Would be a huge blow to the Big East.

Georgetown is the to Ivy Academically as Fresno St is to the Pac. And the Ivies aren't worried about getting raided by Buc-ees.

Hey, don't go hating on Buc-ees!! We just did get one here in the state of Alabama, lol!!

Hey, VA is getting at least one. Less than 45 minutes from W&M.

Another gossip thread based on fantasy.

Nobody. End this thread.

(07-16-2023 03:20 PM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  

(07-16-2023 01:09 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-16-2023 08:44 AM)whittx Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 10:20 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(07-15-2023 05:57 PM)Buckeye22 Wrote:  They very much thought about Northwestern and the military schools in the early 80s when they were trying to stay D1A.

Think about schools on NW level. Those are the choices. It's pretty select.

And Northwestern is soon to have an Ivy-caliber football stadium, so they've got that going for them, which is nice.

Their current stadium is Ivy level. Most existing Ivy stadiums are showing their age and are oversized for the current attendance levels. The new stadium will have way more bells and whistles than any Ivy League facility.

What new stadium? They just lost their chief funder and chief fundraiser.

There have been calls for the project to be halted or put on hold but no final decision has been made that I know of. It may be just an academic point in the end but I wouldn't be shocked if they go ahead, regardless.

Between the Nimbys and the shakiness of Ryan's commitment, it's not hard to imagine the whole thing falling through. Fitzgerald was primary fundraiser, and he was the person most-responsible for getting it across the goal line. Something might still happen, more likely a smaller revamp or touch-up.

(07-16-2023 03:42 PM)CitrusUCF Wrote:  The school that has the history to be an Ivy is William & Mary, but I don't know how they'd feel about a public institution in the Ivy League.

Otherwise, the data tells us that it's a pretty small group. If we are looking for a new member who, at least, exceeds one Ivy in each of category of endowment, research funding, student body size, and admissions rate, it's not a long list. More than likely, you're looking for a school that is well above the lowest member in each and thus likely closer to the medians.

Current Ivy League
Smallest endowment - Brown at $6.5bn.
Median endowment - $17bn
Mean endowment - $23.425bn

Smallest endowment per student - Cornell at $382,812.50
Median endowment per student - $1,040,746
Mean endowment per student - $1,623,891

Least selective admission (highest admit rate) - Cornell at 8.7%
Median selectivity - 5%
Mean selectivity - 5.2%

Lowest R&D funding - Brown at $276.3 million
Median R&D - $1.131 billion
Mean R&D - $918 million

R&D adjusted by faculty size...(take these with a grain of salt, since they may not be apples to apples in terms of including part-time faculty)

Lowest R&D per faculty - Columbia at $251,395.00
Median R&D per faculty - $357,605.00
Mean R&D per faculty - $330,558.00

Nobel Laureates affiliated with Univ. (historical, not at present)

Lowest # of Nobels - Dartmouth with 16
Median - 48
Mean - 60

Lowest # of Rhodes Scholars - Brown with 49
Median - 64
Mean - 181

---------------------------------------------------

I compiled a list of the following institutions to compare them to the Ivy League minimum, median, and mean: Tufts, Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western Reserve, NYU, Chicago, Rochester, Washington U. in St. Louis, Emory, MIT, Rice, Boston U., Cal Tech, Georgetown, Northeastern, Tulane, Howard, George Washington, Johns Hopkins, and William & Mary.

I assigned a school 1 point for exceeding the lowest ranked Ivy in each category, 2 points if it exceeded the median or the mean, and 3 points if it exceed both the median and the mean.

Endowment
Min - $6.5b, Med - $17b, Mean - $23.4b

3 points: MIT
1 point: WashU, Chicago, JHU, Emory, Rice

Endowment Per Student
Min - $382,812; Med - $1,040,746; Mean - $1,623,891

3 points: MIT, Cal Tech
2 points: WashU
1 point: Rice, Chicago, Emory

Acceptance Rate
Highest - 8.7%, Med - 5%, Mean - 5.2%

1 point: Chicago, Cal Tech, MIT, Northeastern, Tulane, Rice

Total R&D Funding
Min - $276.3m; Med - $1.131b; Mean - $918m

3 points: JHU
2 points: NYU, WashU, MIT
1 point: Emory, BU, Chicago, Cal Tech, CWRU, Rochester, CMU, Georgetown

R&D Per Faculty - Take with a massive grain of salt as data is questionable
Min - $251,395.00; Med - $357,605.00; Mean $330,558.00

3 points: Cal Tech, MIT, JHU, Rochester
2 points: Emory
1 point: Rice, CMU, WashU

Nobel Laureates (All-Time) on Faculty When Awarded
Min - 16; Med - 48; Mean - 60

3 points: MIT, Chicago, JHU
1 point: Cal Tech, WashU, NYU

Rhodes Scholars
Min - 49; Median - 64; Mean - 181

3 points: Cal Tech
2 points: MIT, Chicago, JHU

Total Index Scores
19 - Harvard
18 - Yale
17 - MIT
16 - Princeton
13 - UPenn; Columbia
12 - Johns Hopkins; Cornell
9 - Brown; Dartmouth; Chicago; Cal Tech
7 - Washington Univ in St. Louis
5 - Emory; NYU
4 - Rice; Rochester
2 - Carnegie Mellon
1 - Boston Univ.; Case Western Reserve; Georgetown; Northeastern; Tulane
0 - Brandeis; George Washington; Howard; Tufts; William & Mary

So it would appear that MIT, Johns Hopkins, Chicago, and Cal Tech are the institutions that best fit within the Ivy League based on these metrics. Wash U. is in striking distance.

Put that in a blog and you might get referenced by Robin Harris in 2027 as her inspiration for adding MIT and JH.