According to a leak, Trump is due to be arrested Tuesday by the Manhattan DA's office to be charged with making a payoff to Stormy Daniels.

The forces of the left have been after Trump since 2015 and this is the best they can come up with? The have used lies, innuendo, falsified evidence, and led the attack against not only Donald Trump, but his family, businesses, and associates. They have weaponized the FBI, IRS, and numerous government agencies, used the MSM and all hands on deck, and this is what they can come up with after 7+ of throwing insults?

I don't understand what the charge is. Every day people and companies settle nuisance lawsuits, in effect saying "here's some money, now STFU and go away".

It seems like a political prosecution to me. Guilty or innocent of whatever these charges are, it smells like a South American political prosecution. I would hope the USA was a place where law was not a tool for political gain - but the last 7+ years say it is.

So, somebody - anybody - explain it to me. (But please note I am asking no particular person their opinions)

That's the thing... OO

When Trump first ran, he POUNDED THE TABLE that the game was fixed... and when challenged, he said... I KNOW it's fixed because I USE it...and so do ALL of the wealthy... and the dems decided to go after him with literally everything... including spies and plants and tricks... and they STILL can barely come close....

As I've said for decades... the PROBLEM is the PEOPLE (Like Biden, Pelosi et al) who MAKE the rules.... not the people who don't.

I mean for God's sake... look at the 1/6 people vs Trump. The left wants to blame Trump and sure, from a 'character' standpoint, he bears lots of responsibility... but LEGALLY and FINANCIALLY... the Shaman is essentially ruined, and Trump, after years and billions will get a slap on the wrist.



Blame the game, not the player.

I can see both sides on this one.

On one hand, I don't want the Dems to give Trump any more oxygen. If their goal is to keep him out of the Oval Office then they should read the room and let his political relevance continue to fade away.

OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

(03-20-2023 11:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  I can see both sides on this one.

On one hand, I don't want the Dems to give Trump any more oxygen. If their goal is to keep him out of the Oval Office then they should read the room and let his political relevance continue to fade away.

OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

There are clearly more sides than that.

How about we solve the underlying issue so that we're not relegated to spending the better part of a decade (and really, probably two plus decades in terms of him as a private citizen) chasing but really not CATCHING him... and dozens if not hundreds more 'hims', certainly not to the point where the risk isn't worth the reward.

Trump pointed this out... Trump said it...

When people talk about the 'shadow government' or what have you, this is often exactly what they're talking about.... and it's not some wild conspiracy, but demonstrable fact.

I don't care who started it... but it is currently Democrats going after Trump... and not really succeeding.... other than perhaps in their quest to keep power... and Republicans going after Biden... and really similarly only catching his son... even though every single person in the country knows how effed up that is...

If we fix the problem, then people like Trump (and Biden) go down or at least are dissuaded. Instead, we're just encouraging them to a) swing harder and b) procreate a generation or three of copy-cats.

(03-20-2023 09:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  According to a leak, Trump is due to be arrested Tuesday by the Manhattan DA's office to be charged with making a payoff to Stormy Daniels.

The forces of the left have been after Trump since 2015 and this is the best they can come up with? The have used lies, innuendo, falsified evidence, and led the attack against not only Donald Trump, but his family, businesses, and associates. They have weaponized the FBI, IRS, and numerous government agencies, used the MSM and all hands on deck, and this is what they can come up with after 7+ of throwing insults?

I don't understand what the charge is. Every day people and companies settle nuisance lawsuits, in effect saying "here's some money, now STFU and go away".

It seems like a political prosecution to me. Guilty or innocent of whatever these charges are, it smells like a South American political prosecution. I would hope the USA was a place where law was not a tool for political gain - but the last 7+ years say it is.

So, somebody - anybody - explain it to me. (But please note I am asking no particular person their opinions)

Well one thing to learn: never throw your bagman under the bus. Not a smart move.

(03-20-2023 11:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  On one hand, I don't want the Dems to give Trump any more oxygen. If their goal is to keep him out of the Oval Office then they should read the room and let his political relevance continue to fade away.

I appreciate the tacit admission that the Dems are behind this campaign tactic.

Quote:OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

no arrest here

or here

(03-20-2023 01:52 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 09:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  According to a leak, Trump is due to be arrested Tuesday by the Manhattan DA's office to be charged with making a payoff to Stormy Daniels.

The forces of the left have been after Trump since 2015 and this is the best they can come up with? The have used lies, innuendo, falsified evidence, and led the attack against not only Donald Trump, but his family, businesses, and associates. They have weaponized the FBI, IRS, and numerous government agencies, used the MSM and all hands on deck, and this is what they can come up with after 7+ of throwing insults?

I don't understand what the charge is. Every day people and companies settle nuisance lawsuits, in effect saying "here's some money, now STFU and go away".

It seems like a political prosecution to me. Guilty or innocent of whatever these charges are, it smells like a South American political prosecution. I would hope the USA was a place where law was not a tool for political gain - but the last 7+ years say it is.

So, somebody - anybody - explain it to me. (But please note I am asking no particular person their opinions)

Well one thing to learn: never throw your bagman under the bus. Not a smart move.

I was hoping for a more detailed explanation of the alleged crime from you, Tanq.

(03-20-2023 05:15 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 01:52 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 09:43 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  According to a leak, Trump is due to be arrested Tuesday by the Manhattan DA's office to be charged with making a payoff to Stormy Daniels.

The forces of the left have been after Trump since 2015 and this is the best they can come up with? The have used lies, innuendo, falsified evidence, and led the attack against not only Donald Trump, but his family, businesses, and associates. They have weaponized the FBI, IRS, and numerous government agencies, used the MSM and all hands on deck, and this is what they can come up with after 7+ of throwing insults?

I don't understand what the charge is. Every day people and companies settle nuisance lawsuits, in effect saying "here's some money, now STFU and go away".

It seems like a political prosecution to me. Guilty or innocent of whatever these charges are, it smells like a South American political prosecution. I would hope the USA was a place where law was not a tool for political gain - but the last 7+ years say it is.

So, somebody - anybody - explain it to me. (But please note I am asking no particular person their opinions)

Well one thing to learn: never throw your bagman under the bus. Not a smart move.

I was hoping for a more detailed explanation of the alleged crime from you, Tanq.

I havent seen an indictment yet. Anything I would say would be pure speculation.

From what I gather though it might run something like this:

First Trump didnt pay off Stormy. His bagman did. Then Trump paid off the bagman and tried to deduct it as a business expense.

That triggers a NY misdemeanor -- false business records violation. Something that has landed the trump circle in lot of hot water yesterday. There seems to be a profligate ability to classify anything and everything in the Trump universe as a business expense, or not even reporting items given as taxable salaries.

There is a provision in the NY law that elevates the 'false business record' to a felony -- when it is done in conjunction with another crime.

The issue if Cohen can be dressed as a criminal campaign finance violation. If Trump had paid her -- no problem. But he didnt. Someone paid her on his behalf. And it wasnt to settle a claim. No claim existed against Trump from Stormy. She was shopping the story -- and apparently never approached Trump.

The manner in which the payoff was made, indirectly and through third parties, is akin to the issue that Hillary and Perkins Coie ran into trouble with how the Steele dossier payment rolled about. And how Edwards ran into trouble with the DOJ over third persons paying for his mistress and his love child to stay in the background.

The only person that could make this a viable problem was Cohen. The same Cohen whom Trump threw under the bus a few years ago.

As I said --- it is utterly stupid to throw the bagman under the bus.

Cohen was in fact popped by the Feds for the campaign finance crime that is described above. Along with a smorgasborg of related or somewhat related charges. And DJT is noted in that Cohen indictment as an unindicted co-conspirator.

So now, Cohen gets to rat fk the dude that rat fked him. Kind of funny in the long run.

Edited to add:

Too vain to do the deal above board, has to use a cutout and bagman. In the process, puts into play a potential campaign finance problem. Again, if he pays her off directly and from his own pocket -- nothing happens. El zippo. (as to implicating campaign finance violations).

Too greedy and tries and tries to then write it off as a business expenditure. A trigger for a NY state violation.

Too stupid to protect his cutout and bagman. The one person who can elevate the NY state violation to a felony issue.

Further, too stupid to not just protect, but to utterly screw over his bagman for the deal.

Too stupid not to lie his beautiful coiffed visage about it continuously during the major fracas -- in hindsight those lies play in beautifully to establishing the intent necessary to elevate this to what might be a felony.

What a short-bus moron. But gives us a full glimpse into the many issues that make Trump into Trump.

(03-20-2023 05:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 11:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  On one hand, I don't want the Dems to give Trump any more oxygen. If their goal is to keep him out of the Oval Office then they should read the room and let his political relevance continue to fade away.

I appreciate the tacit admission that the Dems are behind this campaign tactic.

Yeah. I’m not really sure. If they are using it as a campaign tactic, it is dumb in my opinion.

Quote:

Quote:OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

no arrest here

or here

Not sure if those are an apples to apples comparison, but I doubt they are. For one thing, it seems that AOC was actually using them for campaigning, which is what I assume the funds were there for.

(03-20-2023 05:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

no arrest here

or here

Edwards was charged for a similar campaign violation.

Also the campaign issue isn’t the main charge. The main charge is a ‘lying in a business record’ —- trying to claim it as a business expense. The campaign violation nature of the payment boosts the ‘lying in a business record’ into ‘lying in business record to further another criminal act’ —- the difference between a NY state misdemeanor and a NY state felony charge.

Serious question...
If someone accuses a company of doing something and they decide to 'write a check' rather than to have it adjudicated, is that not a deductible business expense?

Don't get me wrong... I'm 100% convinced that he's been 'over the edge' of our laws thousands of times... My question and point goes to the question of, does this happen if he's not Trump? Does this work in any other jurisdiction outside of NYC or a few places in CA or OR where 'politics' can so clearly shade the law? Or once again, would 'the wealthy' get away with something that would take down anyone else, and the only reason that doesn't work this time is that the politics are 'against' him now that he chose a team rather than to simply pay both sides? Does this happen if he ran as a Democrat?

Edwards was charged, but iirc, not convicted... even of a Misdemeanor.

(03-20-2023 06:15 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 05:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 11:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  On one hand, I don't want the Dems to give Trump any more oxygen. If their goal is to keep him out of the Oval Office then they should read the room and let his political relevance continue to fade away.

I appreciate the tacit admission that the Dems are behind this campaign tactic.

Yeah. I’m not really sure. If they are using it as a campaign tactic, it is dumb in my opinion.

Quote:

Quote:OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

no arrest here

or here

Not sure if those are an apples to apples comparison, but I doubt they are. For one thing, it seems that AOC was actually using them for campaigning, which is what I assume the funds were there for.

Probably more like oranges to tangerines. I looked hard for a case involving a Republican ex-President, a Soros DA, a porn queen, and a Republican. Think they will let Trump off with a tiny fine? Would that be another difference?

(03-20-2023 07:34 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 05:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

no arrest here

or here

Edwards was charged for a similar campaign violation.

Also the campaign issue isn’t the main charge. The main charge is a ‘lying in a business record’ —- trying to claim it as a business expense. The campaign violation nature of the payment boosts the ‘lying in a business record’ into ‘lying in business record to further another criminal act’ —- the difference between a NY state misdemeanor and a NY state felony charge.

So, fudging his taxes. The difference is, this is Trump, and he is not to be treated like any run of the mill Democrat. His head needs to be on a wall. Dems have been hunting this elusive yeti-like monster so long that perhaps there tunnel vision does not permit them to see that the hunt has failed.

I hear all the Dems and many Republicans wailing that nobody is above the law. B-effing-S. I think many people are treated to a better version of the law - ever hear of white privilege or noticed that rich people seem to get better outcomes than average or poor people? Isn't that basically what BLM is burning drug stores over?

This is political prosecution of the third world variety. It is not the way a transgression by a Clinton, AOC, or especially, a Biden would be treated. Reminds me of the way Teddy K was treated when he killed that girl - in reverse.

(03-21-2023 08:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 06:15 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 05:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 11:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  On one hand, I don't want the Dems to give Trump any more oxygen. If their goal is to keep him out of the Oval Office then they should read the room and let his political relevance continue to fade away.

I appreciate the tacit admission that the Dems are behind this campaign tactic.

Yeah. I’m not really sure. If they are using it as a campaign tactic, it is dumb in my opinion.

Quote:

Quote:OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

no arrest here

or here

Not sure if those are an apples to apples comparison, but I doubt they are. For one thing, it seems that AOC was actually using them for campaigning, which is what I assume the funds were there for.

Probably more like oranges to tangerines. I looked hard for a case involving a Republican ex-President, a Soros DA, a porn queen, and a Republican. Think they will let Trump off with a tiny fine? Would that be another difference?

The comparison to what Trump is accused of and the AOC article isn't even close.

(03-21-2023 09:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 08:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 06:15 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 05:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 11:52 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  On one hand, I don't want the Dems to give Trump any more oxygen. If their goal is to keep him out of the Oval Office then they should read the room and let his political relevance continue to fade away.

I appreciate the tacit admission that the Dems are behind this campaign tactic.

Yeah. I’m not really sure. If they are using it as a campaign tactic, it is dumb in my opinion.

Quote:

Quote:OTOH, if he misused campaign funds to pay her off, then he should receive the same punishment that any non-Trump politician would get for the same offense. Would that warrant an actual arrest? I have no clue.

no arrest here

or here

Not sure if those are an apples to apples comparison, but I doubt they are. For one thing, it seems that AOC was actually using them for campaigning, which is what I assume the funds were there for.

Probably more like oranges to tangerines. I looked hard for a case involving a Republican ex-President, a Soros DA, a porn queen, and a Republican. Think they will let Trump off with a tiny fine? Would that be another difference?

The comparison to what Trump is accused of and the AOC article isn't even close.

So, the other one?

And that's the thing... OO

For decades, the 'elite' have denied that this preference exists... and much of Trump's populatity is that he ADMITTED it.. and even called both sides out on it. He's a dick for sure... but he wasn't lying about that. Maybe it takes that sort of an arrogant prick to be the whistleblower on these guys. Now that he's not in power, he's got BOTH sides (not all of the right, but some of them) after him... and it takes an exceptionally favorable demographic (he was unpopular with lots of people on both sides of the aisle in NYC over his aggressive business tactics and personality including sexist issues and infidelity long before he ran for office) and an INCREDIBLY politically polarized environment and tens of millions (of not more) in some of the most aggressive investigation imaginable including all sorts of 'questionable' tactics to catch him on a misdemeanor that in this specific jurisdiction (but not many many others) could be raised to a felony... as a matter of technicality and not severity... and outside of the specifics, something that numerous politicians (including prominent democrats supported by those now prosecuting or going after Trump).

I mean, if he weren't such a dick, this would be the poster child for the corrupt system that he 'outed' during the first campaign... but because he's a dick, lots of us are 'celebrating' him getting caught.

They should ALL get caught.... not just the ones we don't like.

I get this mental picture of Ahab (the Democrats) pursuing the White Whale (Trump) at any cost.

(03-21-2023 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 09:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 08:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 06:15 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 05:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I appreciate the tacit admission that the Dems are behind this campaign tactic.

Yeah. I’m not really sure. If they are using it as a campaign tactic, it is dumb in my opinion.

Quote:no arrest here

or here

Not sure if those are an apples to apples comparison, but I doubt they are. For one thing, it seems that AOC was actually using them for campaigning, which is what I assume the funds were there for.

Probably more like oranges to tangerines. I looked hard for a case involving a Republican ex-President, a Soros DA, a porn queen, and a Republican. Think they will let Trump off with a tiny fine? Would that be another difference?

The comparison to what Trump is accused of and the AOC article isn't even close.

So, the other one?

See Tanq's post about the steps that Trump took that escalated his issue above what the Clinton campaign apparently did.

(03-21-2023 09:41 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 09:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 08:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-20-2023 06:15 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Yeah. I’m not really sure. If they are using it as a campaign tactic, it is dumb in my opinion.


Not sure if those are an apples to apples comparison, but I doubt they are. For one thing, it seems that AOC was actually using them for campaigning, which is what I assume the funds were there for.

Probably more like oranges to tangerines. I looked hard for a case involving a Republican ex-President, a Soros DA, a porn queen, and a Republican. Think they will let Trump off with a tiny fine? Would that be another difference?

The comparison to what Trump is accused of and the AOC article isn't even close.

So, the other one?

See Tanq's post about the steps that Trump took that escalated his issue above what the Clinton campaign apparently did.

I have seen Tanq's post. Quite a twisted trail of logic. But in effect, he deducted the payoff as a business expense. Thats why we have auditors. Quite a leap from that to creating a false dossier for election purposes and using it to falsify testimony before the FISA court.

At least I think it a big leap. But nobody has been indicted for that falsity.

I think the goal here is the arrest and perp walk. Drag it out a year and thwart the nomination. Then drop it it. Mission accomplished.

(03-21-2023 09:55 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 09:41 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 09:19 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 09:17 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  

(03-21-2023 08:52 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Probably more like oranges to tangerines. I looked hard for a case involving a Republican ex-President, a Soros DA, a porn queen, and a Republican. Think they will let Trump off with a tiny fine? Would that be another difference?

The comparison to what Trump is accused of and the AOC article isn't even close.

So, the other one?

See Tanq's post about the steps that Trump took that escalated his issue above what the Clinton campaign apparently did.

I have seen Tanq's post. Quite a twisted trail of logic. But in effect, he deducted the payoff as a business expense. Thats why we have auditors. Quite a leap from that to creating a false dossier for election purposes and using it to falsify testimony before the FISA court.

At least I think it a big leap. But nobody has been indicted for that falsity.

I think the goal here is the arrest and perp walk. Drag it out a year and thwart the nomination. Then drop it it. Mission accomplished.

Does anybody think that Trump has a better chance of defeating Biden than Desantis does? Do you think the Democrats believe that? If I were a Democratic strategist, I would be salivating at the idea of Trump being the Republican nominee.