Like the title says, I got curious. So I opened google sheets, cutting and pasting tables from wikipedia, sorting by endowment and enrollment. What does this group look like, compared to the existing G5 schools? (I didn't bother with the P5)

Looking at enrollment, 8 of the WAC / ASUN schools are in the bottom third of the G5. The bottom bottom is Tulsa and the service academies, followed by Abilene Christian at 5000, Rice at 7000, and North Alabama at 7500.

On the other hand, FBS newcomers Jacksonville State is at 9200, Coastal is at 10,000. Louisiana-Monroe, who famously struggles in FBS, is at 9000.

In terms of endowment, the WAC/ ASUN group fill 8 of the bottom 10 slots for endowment. The existing G5 schools are ULM, and Coastal Carolina.

Mean Enrollment
WAC/ASUN 13,339
MAC 20,681
Sun Belt 21,233
Mountain West 24,552
American 23,968
CUSA 32,781

Liberty and the service academies probably make the mean an unreliable measurement. Let's look at the medians.

Median enrollment
WAC/ASUN 11,585
MAC 18,600
Sun Belt 18,341
CUSA 21,804
Mountain West 24,491
American 25,281

So the NCAA could make some kind of a case in court that the WAC/ASUN group aren't worthy of being an FBS conference, in terms of enrollment. It's not a slam dunk at all--Coastal (11,000) and Jacksonville State (9,000) got the nod before Kennesaw State (40,000), so enrollment isn't everything. But there's data to say "this group doesn't match up with the existing G5 conferences" in terms of profile.

Are you including Kennesaw State in the 10 schools? Just curious. Their FB program got booted from the ASUN/WAC collab.

Enrollment has never been a metric in any Division I requirements. The only legislative questions would be (1) can there be a football-only FBS conference, and (2) does the WAC have a standing exemption to invite schools to undergo the FCS-to-FBS transition. I think the NCAA can win on #1, but not on #2.

The only other ways out would be is if the schools don't have stadiums seating at least 15,000 (actual attendance is irrelevant) to comply with the rule about number of tickets distributed, or the schools don't sponsor the requisite number of sports.

Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

(01-15-2023 09:22 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Are you including Kennesaw State in the 10 schools? Just curious. Their FB program got booted from the ASUN/WAC collab.

No, I have Kennesaw included with the CUSA schools. (I have everyone grouped with their new conferences for the stats)

(01-15-2023 09:31 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Enrollment has never been a metric in any Division I requirements. The only legislative questions would be (1) can there be a football-only FBS conference, and (2) does the WAC have a standing exemption to invite schools to undergo the FCS-to-FBS transition. I think the NCAA can win on #1, but not on #2.

The only other ways out would be is if the schools don't have stadiums seating at least 15,000 (actual attendance is irrelevant) to comply with the rule about number of tickets distributed, or the schools don't sponsor the requisite number of sports.

Well, they're about to rewrite the rulebook. Literally, they're changing what the requirments are. Nobody's ever tried to jump from being an FCS / I-AA conference to being an FBS / I-A conference. I don't think this is comparable to the MAC and Missouri Valley and maybe the Southland fighting against being forced down in 1982 or so.

The FBS-only thing I don't see as a big problem. If the ASUN schools have to join the WAC for all sports to go FBS, they'll do it.

If the NCAA wants to make a case that the WAC/ ASUN schools, as a group, aren't equipped to compete with the G5 conferences, they can probably make that case.

(01-15-2023 10:39 PM)unalions Wrote:  Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

Just for grins:

Mean Enrollment
WAC/ASUN 13,339

Connecticut: 32,669
Georgetown: 19,005
Villanova: 10,943

(01-15-2023 10:39 PM)unalions Wrote:  Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

Villanova has won an FCS title, and had a proposal to play at Philadelphia's MLS stadium. So they're a better candidate for FBS than most of the WAC-ASUN schools. Enrollment is comparable, they have a huge endowment, and their athletic department is very well funded.

(This is not an endorsment of any Villanova FBS plan.)

(01-15-2023 08:29 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Like the title says, I got curious. So I opened google sheets, cutting and pasting tables from wikipedia, sorting by endowment and enrollment. What does this group look like, compared to the existing G5 schools? (I didn't bother with the P5)

Looking at enrollment, 8 of the WAC / ASUN schools are in the bottom third of the G5. The bottom bottom is Tulsa and the service academies, followed by Abilene Christian at 5000, Rice at 7000, and North Alabama at 7500.

On the other hand, FBS newcomers Jacksonville State is at 9200, Coastal is at 10,000. Louisiana-Monroe, who famously struggles in FBS, is at 9000.

In terms of endowment, the WAC/ ASUN group fill 8 of the bottom 10 slots for endowment. The existing G5 schools are ULM, and Coastal Carolina.

Mean Enrollment
WAC/ASUN 13,339
MAC 20,681
Sun Belt 21,233
Mountain West 24,552
American 23,968
CUSA 32,781

Liberty and the service academies probably make the mean an unreliable measurement. Let's look at the medians.

Median enrollment
WAC/ASUN 11,585
MAC 18,600
Sun Belt 18,341
CUSA 21,804
Mountain West 24,491
American 25,281

So the NCAA could make some kind of a case in court that the WAC/ASUN group aren't worthy of being an FBS conference, in terms of enrollment. It's not a slam dunk at all--Coastal (11,000) and Jacksonville State (9,000) got the nod before Kennesaw State (40,000), so enrollment isn't everything. But there's data to say "this group doesn't match up with the existing G5 conferences" in terms of profile.

Did you count UTRGV in there?

I get around that, but the numbers could grow since they said they are talking to 4 others to join them.

Lamar over 16,000
NC A&T over 13,000
Youngstown State over 15,000
Delaware over 23,000
Chattanooga over 11,000
North Dakota State over 12,000
South Dakota State over 11,000
SE Missouri State 11,000
SE Louisianna over 14,000
Tennessee State over 8,000
Jackson State over 7000
McNeese State over 7,000


The smallest would be Abilene Christian, but they have more enrollment than AAC's Tulsa.

(01-15-2023 10:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 09:22 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Are you including Kennesaw State in the 10 schools? Just curious. Their FB program got booted from the ASUN/WAC collab.

No, I have Kennesaw included with the CUSA schools. (I have everyone grouped with their new conferences for the stats)

Oh, so you're counting UTRGV. Got it.

(01-15-2023 10:52 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 08:29 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Like the title says, I got curious. So I opened google sheets, cutting and pasting tables from wikipedia, sorting by endowment and enrollment. What does this group look like, compared to the existing G5 schools? (I didn't bother with the P5)

Looking at enrollment, 8 of the WAC / ASUN schools are in the bottom third of the G5. The bottom bottom is Tulsa and the service academies, followed by Abilene Christian at 5000, Rice at 7000, and North Alabama at 7500.

On the other hand, FBS newcomers Jacksonville State is at 9200, Coastal is at 10,000. Louisiana-Monroe, who famously struggles in FBS, is at 9000.

In terms of endowment, the WAC/ ASUN group fill 8 of the bottom 10 slots for endowment. The existing G5 schools are ULM, and Coastal Carolina.

Mean Enrollment
WAC/ASUN 13,339
MAC 20,681
Sun Belt 21,233
Mountain West 24,552
American 23,968
CUSA 32,781

Liberty and the service academies probably make the mean an unreliable measurement. Let's look at the medians.

Median enrollment
WAC/ASUN 11,585
MAC 18,600
Sun Belt 18,341
CUSA 21,804
Mountain West 24,491
American 25,281

So the NCAA could make some kind of a case in court that the WAC/ASUN group aren't worthy of being an FBS conference, in terms of enrollment. It's not a slam dunk at all--Coastal (11,000) and Jacksonville State (9,000) got the nod before Kennesaw State (40,000), so enrollment isn't everything. But there's data to say "this group doesn't match up with the existing G5 conferences" in terms of profile.

Did you count UTRGV in there?

Yes.

Quote:I get around that, but the numbers could grow since they said they are talking to 4 others to join them.

A lot of things COULD happen.

Quote:Lamar over 16,000
NC A&T over 13,000
Youngstown State over 15,000
Delaware over 23,000
Chattanooga over 11,000
North Dakota State over 12,000
South Dakota State over 11,000
SE Missouri State 11,000
SE Louisianna over 14,000
Tennessee State over 8,000
Jackson State over 7000
McNeese State over 7,000

The smallest would be Abilene Christian, but they have more enrollment than AAC's Tulsa.

Tulsa and the service academies are the only FBS schools under 5000.

Off of your list, Delaware is the only one who would be above-average in enrollment if they joined a G5 conference.

(01-15-2023 11:08 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 09:22 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Are you including Kennesaw State in the 10 schools? Just curious. Their FB program got booted from the ASUN/WAC collab.

No, I have Kennesaw included with the CUSA schools. (I have everyone grouped with their new conferences for the stats)

Oh, so you're counting UTRGV. Got it.

Yeah, I could have been clearer about that. I'm looking at financial capability, reflected in enrollment and endowment. The fact that UTRGV doesn't yet actually PLAY football is an unimportant detail. :smallbiggrin:

(01-15-2023 10:45 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:39 PM)unalions Wrote:  Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

Villanova has won an FCS title, and had a proposal to play at Philadelphia's MLS stadium. So they're a better candidate for FBS than most of the WAC-ASUN schools. Enrollment is comparable, they have a huge endowment, and their athletic department is very well funded.

(This is not an endorsment of any Villanova FBS plan.)

Has St. John’s ever had football? I don’t know much about I-AAA schools.

(01-15-2023 11:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 11:08 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 09:22 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Are you including Kennesaw State in the 10 schools? Just curious. Their FB program got booted from the ASUN/WAC collab.

No, I have Kennesaw included with the CUSA schools. (I have everyone grouped with their new conferences for the stats)

Oh, so you're counting UTRGV. Got it.

Yeah, I could have been clearer about that. I'm looking at financial capability, reflected in enrollment and endowment. The fact that UTRGV doesn't yet actually PLAY football is an unimportant detail. :smallbiggrin:

Neither of which have much to do with FBS athletics. Currently in FBS, 25 schools have less than 16k in enrollment including TCU at 12.2k. General endowments are rarely used to fund athletics as most donations have been earmarked for certain scholarships or academic projects. However, many schools now have separate athletics endowments especially P5s.

(01-15-2023 11:23 PM)unalions Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:45 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:39 PM)unalions Wrote:  Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

Villanova has won an FCS title, and had a proposal to play at Philadelphia's MLS stadium. So they're a better candidate for FBS than most of the WAC-ASUN schools. Enrollment is comparable, they have a huge endowment, and their athletic department is very well funded.

(This is not an endorsment of any Villanova FBS plan.)

Has St. John’s ever had football? I don’t know much about I-AAA schools.

Yes, and they dropped the sport.

(01-15-2023 10:39 PM)unalions Wrote:  Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

Massive gaps in terms of competitiveness and support between these 3 programs. UConn is not long removed from the AAC. At the other end of the spectrum Georgetown is 2-9 in the Patriot, and averages around 2,000 fans at home games.

Might as well suggest a grouping of Colgate, Delaware and UCF.

(01-15-2023 11:53 PM)unalions Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 11:12 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 11:08 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:41 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 09:22 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  Are you including Kennesaw State in the 10 schools? Just curious. Their FB program got booted from the ASUN/WAC collab.

No, I have Kennesaw included with the CUSA schools. (I have everyone grouped with their new conferences for the stats)

Oh, so you're counting UTRGV. Got it.

Yeah, I could have been clearer about that. I'm looking at financial capability, reflected in enrollment and endowment. The fact that UTRGV doesn't yet actually PLAY football is an unimportant detail. :smallbiggrin:

Neither of which have much to do with FBS athletics. Currently in FBS, 25 schools have less than 16k in enrollment including TCU at 12.2k. General endowments are rarely used to fund athletics as most donations have been earmarked for certain scholarships or academic projects. However, many schools now have separate athletics endowments especially P5s.

Of those 25 schools, 11 of them have billion-dollar-plus enrollments, and one of the others is Air Force.

Endowement and enrollment aren't perfect measuring sticks, or JAcksonville State and Coastal wouldn't have been called up. But they're reflections of what your resource base is, as a school. If you need to expand your athletic budget by $5M, do you have enough students to hit with an increased athletic fee, or enough rich alumni to donate the money. I very much doubt that a measure like athletic budgets or athletic revenue would show a much different picture.

It's not hard to make a case that bringing up an entire conference of what project as FBS bottom feeders breaks an underlying purpose of the conference-invitation rule, that FBS members be peer competitors with other FBS schools.

The NCAA would have a rough time arguing that South Alabama (15,000) and Alabama-Tuscaloosa (38,000) belong in the same category but North Alabama (7500) does not. But it's not hard to pull numbers that make a case that the WAC-ASUN group isn't on the level of the G5 conferences.

(01-16-2023 09:54 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 11:23 PM)unalions Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:45 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:39 PM)unalions Wrote:  Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

Villanova has won an FCS title, and had a proposal to play at Philadelphia's MLS stadium. So they're a better candidate for FBS than most of the WAC-ASUN schools. Enrollment is comparable, they have a huge endowment, and their athletic department is very well funded.

(This is not an endorsment of any Villanova FBS plan.)

Has St. John’s ever had football? I don’t know much about I-AAA schools.

Yes, and they dropped the sport.

Figures. It seems many of the naysayers and gatekeepers on here are from fans of schools without football. How convenient.

LOL.

(01-16-2023 11:01 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  The NCAA would have a rough time arguing that South Alabama (15,000) and Alabama-Tuscaloosa (38,000) belong in the same category but North Alabama (7500) does not. But it's not hard to pull numbers that make a case that the WAC-ASUN group isn't on the level of the G5 conferences.

It would help if you started with the facts. UNA’s enrollment is now over 10K.

University of North Alabama celebrates record-breaking year in 2022

https://www.al.com/news/2022/12/universi...utType=amp

(01-16-2023 10:09 AM)JMURocks Wrote:  

(01-15-2023 10:39 PM)unalions Wrote:  Speaking of the Big East, Georgetown, Villanova, and UConn should also join the ASUN-WAC Football conference!!

Massive gaps in terms of competitiveness and support between these 3 programs. UConn is not long removed from the AAC. At the other end of the spectrum Georgetown is 2-9 in the Patriot, and averages around 2,000 fans at home games.

Might as well suggest a grouping of Colgate, Delaware and UCF.

Maybe UConn and UMass should consider joining, but not Nova or G'town. G'town is closer to a low level D3 school than a FBS move up. I wouldn't even equate Nova to UDel. Nova has a good history of on-field success, but no off-field support. That has not changed since the BE move-up days. Nova might be able to play at that little soccer pitch in Chester, Pa, but it will never sellout.

(01-16-2023 11:26 AM)unalions Wrote:  

(01-16-2023 11:01 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  The NCAA would have a rough time arguing that South Alabama (15,000) and Alabama-Tuscaloosa (38,000) belong in the same category but North Alabama (7500) does not. But it's not hard to pull numbers that make a case that the WAC-ASUN group isn't on the level of the G5 conferences.

It would help if you started with the facts. UNA’s enrollment is now over 10K.

University of North Alabama celebrates record-breaking year in 2022

https://www.al.com/news/2022/12/universi...utType=amp

Tomato - Tomahto