(11-12-2022 03:19 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Some of us are in the not-Trump camp not because of his being a binge liar and uncouth.

I can live with those.

There are far deeper problems with Trump for most who do not like him nor support him.

lol---well there ya go. A party with members who refuse to support the candidate coming out of the primary is going to lose a lot of elections. For years the conservatives were told to hold their nose and vote for RINO candidates---now that the shoe is on the other foot---we have "Never Trumpers" who refuse to vote for the winner----and worse yet---actually campaign against the primary winner (Lincoln Project).

Its Pogo. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Not only can that not get fixed---its self perpetuating within your own base. Incidentally----locally we may already be there as it appears the Republican Party is a dead corpse in Harris County. Im becoming more convinced that the only hope for reasonable government at the County level is for droves of Republicans to join the Democrat Party and vote in their primary. You could still vote Republican----but at least when the Republican reliably loses---we are at least represented by the least radical Democrat available in the primary. Of course---the easier option is to just move to Montgomery County.

(11-12-2022 04:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  Of course---the easier option is to just move to Montgomery County.

Come on up. Abbott won here 73-25.

(11-12-2022 04:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 03:19 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Some of us are in the not-Trump camp not because of his being a binge liar and uncouth.

I can live with those.

There are far deeper problems with Trump for most who do not like him nor support him.

lol---well there ya go. A party with members who refuse to support the candidate coming out of the primary is going to lose a lot of elections. For years the conservatives were told to hold their nose and vote for RINO candidates---now that the shoe is on the other foot---we have "Never Trumpers" who refuse to vote for the winner----and worse yet---actually campaign against the primary winner (Lincoln Project).

Yes, how dare some dont vote for a dude that they believe is probably the most corrupt person we've had in the White House, and whom they think has violated the Office for simple self-serving reasons. The sheer terror of actually voting for a person, not for a party. How dare the masses think that.

Sorry charlie -- I have always voted for people, not parties. I have voted for positions, not party.

Maybe the solution to your first sentence is to nominate people that voters can vote for. With policies that people can vote for.

That actually worked with me in '20. Trump's policies overweighed his asshatness. Bingo, bango, bongo -- that was my vote for Trump in 20.

Trump going off the fing deep end with the continuous 'I didnt lose' schtick tested that in my case. And I still came down in his corner. His malfeasance within the operation of his office on Jan 6 tilted that for me, not to mention that he wound those people up and sent them to do a truly disgusting act --- simply because he could not bear the thought of losing the Ring of Power like an orange haired Gollum.

MaL simply solidified that for me. Sorry Charlie, I dont do the cult of personality thing as well as some.

Yes, how dare people outweigh party. How dare policies outweigh party. The audacity of that....

(11-12-2022 06:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 04:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 03:19 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Some of us are in the not-Trump camp not because of his being a binge liar and uncouth.

I can live with those.

There are far deeper problems with Trump for most who do not like him nor support him.

lol---well there ya go. A party with members who refuse to support the candidate coming out of the primary is going to lose a lot of elections. For years the conservatives were told to hold their nose and vote for RINO candidates---now that the shoe is on the other foot---we have "Never Trumpers" who refuse to vote for the winner----and worse yet---actually campaign against the primary winner (Lincoln Project).

Yes, how dare some dont vote for a dude that they believe is probably the most corrupt person we've had in the White House, and whom they think has violated the Office for simple self-serving reasons. The sheer terror of actually voting for a person, not for a party. How dare the masses think that.

Sorry charlie -- I have always voted for people, not parties. I have voted for positions, not party.

Maybe the solution to your first sentence is to nominate people that voters can vote for. With policies that people can vote for.

That actually worked with me in '20. Trump's policies overweighed his asshatness. Bingo, bango, bongo -- that was my vote for Trump in 20.

Trump going off the fing deep end with the continuous 'I didnt lose' schtick tested that in my case. And I still came down in his corner. His malfeasance within the operation of his office on Jan 6 tilted that for me, not to mention that he wound those people up and sent them to do a truly disgusting act --- simply because he could not bear the thought of losing the Ring of Power like an orange haired Gollum.

MaL simply solidified that for me. Sorry Charlie, I dont do the cult of personality thing as well as some.

Yes, how dare people outweigh party. How dare policies outweigh party. The audacity of that....

To be clear---there is absolutely nothing wrong with voting for the person you prefer and refusing to vote for those you dislike---nor did I ever say there was anything wrong with that. Im just stating a fact. My point is your opponent doesnt do much of that. Democrats tend to be much more loyal to party and will vote for most anyone who has the label. Whether you like it or not, the fact is the more discerning nature of Republicans puts the party at a distinct disadvantage. And before you start babbling on about "better candidates"---its doesnt matter. There will always be a stand, issue, event, or attribute to which some in the party will take offense. Its just too big a tent for that not to happen. Not for a blanket ban on abortion? Booom----lose some votes. Thats just the way it is in the two party system. Nobody can be all things to all people.

I assume the "cult of personality" shot is directed at me. Again, you'd be wrong. No surprise there. Trump was not my primary vote, but he got my election day vote because any Republican is better than Hillary. He governed with a much more conservative philosophy than I expected he would (I mean the guy used to be a Democrat)---so he got my vote again in 2020. If he is the Republican candidate in 2024 in the general election I will vote for him again---if its DeSantis---then I'll pull the lever for DeSantis (because they are both better than any Democrat thats going to be on the ballot).

I will interject something that an English friend said years ago. He was a local politician at the time in Bristol. We were comparing John Major and Tony Blair. We were discussing that Blair seemed a much more attractive person than Major, who always seemed sort of stiff. His reply was that Labor had more attractive persons as candidates, but that they had to, because Tories had better ideas.

I think there may be a comparable here. Democrats have more attractive personalities, but republicans have better ideas. Trump managed to be a more attractive candidate than Hillary, but with Trump it's always going to be about personalities. And that's not a winning formula for republicans generally.

(11-12-2022 07:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  If [Trump] is the Republican candidate in 2024 in the general election I will vote for him again---if its DeSantis---then I'll pull the lever for DeSantis (because they are both better than any Democrat thats going to be on the ballot).

You realize of course, coog, that we are not now bound by a Trump or Democrat dilemma. That, with the disappointing 2022 midterms only just a few days behind us, we have an opportunity - - in fact a responsibility - - to weigh in on who should be in consideration for 2024.

Some, like Claw, are still smitten with Trump. And that’s fine, if that’s how he chooses to think.

But it is just as fine for others to point out that Donald Trump is a prescription for electoral disaster. That he has proved himself over and over again to have no personal self-control. And that that his empty (I presume) threat to reveal some unflattering information about Ron DeSantis, that somehow only he knows, is yet another reason for any straight-thinking, stand-up American to turn their back on Donald Trump and want nothing whatsoever more to do with him.

Donald Trump still has my respect for winning in 2016 and for most (but not all) of what he did during his first term. But I now just want for him to disappear off of the public stage as we begin looking at 2024.

I prefer DeSantis to Trump, but if either is the republican nominee in 2024, I will vote for him. Not because he's a republican, but because he is better than any available democrat. The only democrat who might cause me to reconsider would be Joe Manchin versus Trump.

(11-09-2022 12:58 PM)mlb Wrote:  

(11-09-2022 12:52 PM)Claw Wrote:  They will murder DeSantis. Trump showed the only real way to fight it, and that is head on. DeSantis thinks he can handle everything like a statesman. They will eat him like they did Romney unless he gets a lot more Trump-like.

Ironic you say it like that... as a moderate who votes for candidates from both parties, if he goes like Trump I'll go 3rd party again. I want to vote for someone presidential, not someone who acts like a scorned teenaged girl.

AKA owned by the globalists and anti constitution.

(11-12-2022 08:21 PM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 07:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  If [Trump] is the Republican candidate in 2024 in the general election I will vote for him again---if its DeSantis---then I'll pull the lever for DeSantis (because they are both better than any Democrat thats going to be on the ballot).

You realize of course, coog, that we are not now bound by a Trump or Democrat dilemma. That, with the disappointing 2022 midterms only just a few days behind us, we have an opportunity - - in fact a responsibility - - to weigh in on who should be in consideration for 2024.

Some, like Claw, are still smitten with Trump. And that’s fine, if that’s how he chooses to think.

But it is just as fine for others to point out that Donald Trump is a prescription for electoral disaster. That he has proved himself over and over again to have no personal self-control. And that that his empty (I presume) threat to reveal some unflattering information about Ron DeSantis, that somehow only he knows, is yet another reason for any straight-thinking, stand-up American to turn their back on Donald Trump and want nothing whatsoever more to do with him.

Donald Trump still has my respect for winning in 2016 and for most (but not all) of what he did during his first term. But I now just want for him to disappear off of the public stage as we begin looking at 2024.

The winner of a primary is the candidate with the most loyal most energized base---and Trump is that guy pretty much everywhere other than maybe Florida. Unless you expect Trump to bow out gracefully (C'mon---ya know that aint happening), then its going to be an ugly primary and Trump probably will reveal or say ugly things about DeSantis---and DeSantis will probably say some blunt ugly things about Trump. In other words, its not likely either come out of the primary as a more attractive candidate than either is right now. After its all over, we still probably end up with Trump.

Like I said----Im voting for the Republican nominee in 2022 regardless of who it is because whoever it is will be better than anyone the Democrats will have on the ballot. Unfortunately, I dont think either wins the general election if we have a Trump vs DeSantis primary. Why? Because in the general election all the Democrats will vote for the their newest (or their same old old ) "hope and change" candidate---while at the same time a bunch of DeSantis supporters will refuse to vote for Trump (or a bunch of Trump supporters will refuse to vote for DeSantis) and the Republicans will lose again---cuz thats just how our party rolls. Not to mention, even if it is DeSantis, by the time the actual election takes place the press will have everyone believing DeSantis is worse than Trump---cuz thats just how they roll.

(11-12-2022 07:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 06:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 04:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 03:19 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Some of us are in the not-Trump camp not because of his being a binge liar and uncouth.

I can live with those.

There are far deeper problems with Trump for most who do not like him nor support him.

lol---well there ya go. A party with members who refuse to support the candidate coming out of the primary is going to lose a lot of elections. For years the conservatives were told to hold their nose and vote for RINO candidates---now that the shoe is on the other foot---we have "Never Trumpers" who refuse to vote for the winner----and worse yet---actually campaign against the primary winner (Lincoln Project).

Yes, how dare some dont vote for a dude that they believe is probably the most corrupt person we've had in the White House, and whom they think has violated the Office for simple self-serving reasons. The sheer terror of actually voting for a person, not for a party. How dare the masses think that.

Sorry charlie -- I have always voted for people, not parties. I have voted for positions, not party.

Maybe the solution to your first sentence is to nominate people that voters can vote for. With policies that people can vote for.

That actually worked with me in '20. Trump's policies overweighed his asshatness. Bingo, bango, bongo -- that was my vote for Trump in 20.

Trump going off the fing deep end with the continuous 'I didnt lose' schtick tested that in my case. And I still came down in his corner. His malfeasance within the operation of his office on Jan 6 tilted that for me, not to mention that he wound those people up and sent them to do a truly disgusting act --- simply because he could not bear the thought of losing the Ring of Power like an orange haired Gollum.

MaL simply solidified that for me. Sorry Charlie, I dont do the cult of personality thing as well as some.

Yes, how dare people outweigh party. How dare policies outweigh party. The audacity of that....

To be clear---there is absolutely nothing wrong with voting for the person you prefer and refusing to vote for those you dislike---nor did I ever say there was anything wrong with that. Im just stating a fact. My point is your opponent doesnt do much of that. Democrats tend to be much more loyal to party and will vote for most anyone who has the label. Whether you like it or not, the fact is the more discerning nature of Republicans puts the party at a distinct disadvantage. And before you start babbling on about "better candidates"---its doesnt matter. There will always be a stand, issue, event, or attribute to which some in the party will take offense. Its just too big a tent for that not to happen. Not for a blanket ban on abortion? Booom----lose some votes. Thats just the way it is in the two party system. Nobody can be all things to all people.

I assume the "cult of personality" shot is directed at me. Again, you'd be wrong. No surprise there. Trump was not my primary vote, but he got my election day vote because any Republican is better than Hillary. He governed with a much more conservative philosophy than I expected he would (I mean the guy used to be a Democrat)---so he got my vote again in 2020. If he is the Republican candidate in 2024 in the general election I will vote for him again---if its DeSantis---then I'll pull the lever for DeSantis (because they are both better than any Democrat thats going to be on the ballot).

The "cult of personality" isnt specifically directed at you, if at all. I dont have a clue how you formulate your choice, excepting what you have jsut said above.

Much of your comment, before the insightful (and I mean that) explanation you provided above, seemed to point to a predilection to primarily choosing a party. You point out in the segment above with some derision those 'who refuse to vote for the winner----and worse yet---actually campaign against the primary winner '. That seems like a broad indictment of those people 'who refuse to vote for the winner'.

The cult of personality was actually not well stated -- your comment seems to be such a cult but towards a party. And no, I disagree with your basis on that.

I think that if a party nominates a person with whom a voter in that party disagrees with enough, I dont have the derision that you do towards someone who does the 'worse yet --- actually campaign against the primary winner'. I dont treat a party as an act of fealty. Some do. No skin off my back on that latter postion.

My apologies if you took the 'cult of personality' comment as directed towards you. I should have been clearer and noted that it should more properly be directed towards a 'cult of personality towards a party'. It wasnt meant as an oblique shot, and my bad for not being as clear as I could have there.

(11-12-2022 10:05 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The winner of a primary is the candidate with the most loyal most energized base---and Trump is that guy pretty much everywhere other than maybe Florida. Unless you expect Trump to bow out gracefully (C'mon---ya know that aint happening), then its going to be an ugly primary and Trump probably will reveal or say ugly things about DeSantis---and DeSantis will probably say some blunt ugly things about Trump. In other words, its not likely either come out of the primary as a more attractive candidate than either is right now. After its all over, we still probably end up with Trump.

An ugly primary is exactly what I expect. But, more to the point, I am sure it is exactly what Ron DeSantis expects. He will need to decide if he is up for the political fight. If he is, then I absolutely expect him to win it.

Donald Trump is a proven loser. A skilled politician such as Ron DeSantis will make mincemeat of him in a straight-up contest. (Donald Trump knows that, which is why we are seeing such premature, juvenile, unprovoked attacks coming from Donald - - directed at DeSantis, at Youngkin, and at his own selected candidates who didn’t perform as expected.)

If Ron DeSantis is not up for this fight, and that’s certainly possible, then I hope and expect that someone else will step up to challenge Donald Trump for the 2024 nomination: Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Tom Cotton, Mike Pompeo, Nikki Haley, and countless others. I again expect it to be an ugly nomination process, but believe that any of them would prevail in a straight-up primary contest with Donald Trump. (The ONLY advantage that Donald Trump has over these others is the cynical support from a complicit media who want him to be the more easily defeated nominee, and donations from the Soros dark-money folks who agree. But I don’t think that even that will be enough. Donald Trump is that tainted.)

If it turns out that I am wrong on that, and Donald Trump emerges as the 2024 Republican nominee, then I will vote for him - - as I did in 2020. The one way that I will not vote for him is if he is anointed the Republican selection in an underhanded process - - via overt or covert threats directed at other, better choices. That is what I am reading in your post; please forgive me if I am misreading your meaning. But if that’s how things go down, and Trump gets the nomination solely via political bullying, then I will vote 3rd party - - as I did in 2016.

Bottom line, coog. If Donald Trump were the incumbent, just coming off of a successful first term, then he would deserve the kind of deference that I think you are suggesting. He is not. He instead is some who lost to a mental turnip in 2020, and then managed to parlay his deeply unpleasant loser personality into a crushingly disappointing midterms.

Final concession (to anticipate the response from Claw and others): Donald Trump is plainly not as bad as Joe Biden. But, sadly, that is the ONLY thing that can be said in his favor. and it is an unacceptable threshold for someone who wants to be president of this nation. Because he is worse - - way worse - - than Ron DeSantis and pretty much any other possible candidate that the Republicans might offer up as a nominee.

(11-13-2022 07:10 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Final concession (to anticipate the response from Claw and others): Donald Trump is plainly not as bad as Joe Biden. But, sadly, that is the ONLY thing that can be said in his favor. and it is an unacceptable threshold for someone who wants to be president of this nation.

But if Joe Biden is the democrat nominee, it is the only threshold that matters.

(11-13-2022 10:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2022 07:10 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Final concession (to anticipate the response from Claw and others): Donald Trump is plainly not as bad as Joe Biden. But, sadly, that is the ONLY thing that can be said in his favor. and it is an unacceptable threshold for someone who wants to be president of this nation.

But if Joe Biden is the democrat nominee, it is the only threshold that matters.

Which seems to assume that we are stuck with Donald Trump as the Republican nominee.

If I haven't been clear on this - - I do not accept that as a given, or even an argument that should be afforded anything but dismissiveness in light of how badly the former president performed leading up to a since the midterms.

(11-13-2022 11:02 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Which seems to assume that we are stuck with Donald Trump as the Republican nominee.

Not at all. I have several times expressed my preference for DeSantis, or indeed almost any other republican, over Trump.

I will almost certainly vote for whoever is the republican nominee against whoever is the democrat nominee. Not because I vote for party, but because I vote for issues, and there is no democrat that I like better on the issues than any republican.

The best thing that could happen for the republican party would be for one of the democrat anti-Trump witch hunts to find a witch big enough to sideline Trump. So far, they have not come close.

(11-13-2022 11:13 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The best thing that could happen for the republican party would be for one of the democrat anti-Trump witch hunts to find a witch big enough to sideline Trump. So far, they have not come close.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Seriously, the medium to long term interest to the party is much better as well.

No matter whom the Republicans nominate, I think the advantage will be to that nominee. Not equally though. But here is the (that is my) thought process for a Trump nomination vs a DeSantis nomination.

At the outset, I think that a Trump ticket *should* hold a very small advantage over Biden ticket -- simply because what the 'good track / bad track' numbers should give. But,, Trump holds a much smaller chance of gaining the Presidency than a De Santis ticket. Both 2020 *and* this year underscore the flaw in a Trump nomination. Simply put, DeSantis holds a much better chance than Trump in gaining the Presidency.

Notwithstanding that -- assume Trump wins. A second Trump term will most likely simply generate even more backlash against Rs in general. A second Trump term will be 4 years of turmoil.

And, Trump's actions re: other people in what he considers his limelight shows another weakness. Trump basically, and in his nature, cannot allow a VP or a successor to his term to flourish. That should be underscored by Trump's current attacks on Youngkin currently. If Trump is elected, Rs should write off '24, and possibly '28 as well.

Now consider a DeSantis win ---if he is elected, I dont see anyone on the D bench even being a contender in '24. So a DeSantis term in '20 has a very high probability of leading to an easy DeSantis re-election in '24.

From what I have heard about De Santis in Florida from people actually interacting with DeSantis -- he promotes team play concepts. Given that, I think DeSantis would encourage the grooming of a successor. Which to me bodes vey well for that groomed successor to succeed in '28.

One of the major issues I think about, aside from how corrupt I believe Trump is, is that a DeSantis '24 run means 4 years, and a very high likelihood of 4 more. ANd a good probability of 4 years more from a groomed successor. In short, up to 12 years of occupying the office.

With Trump, and his inability to look beyond himself, I think it would be 4 and out.

And I agree it would be *far* better if a Biden DOJ martyrs him. That way the ire is directed to the Biden administration.

Since, I also believe that Trump would wreck the shop if he were involved in a losing Republican nomination process. Notwithstanding that I believe that Trump is the epitome of being corrupt.

(11-13-2022 12:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Notwithstanding that I believe that Trump is the epitome of being corrupt.

Given that the whole Deep State apparatus of government has been on a massive witch hunt against him for going on 7 years and come up with nothing, I tend to doubt that he is.

(11-13-2022 01:11 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 07:16 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 06:03 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 04:00 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(11-12-2022 03:19 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Some of us are in the not-Trump camp not because of his being a binge liar and uncouth.

I can live with those.

There are far deeper problems with Trump for most who do not like him nor support him.

lol---well there ya go. A party with members who refuse to support the candidate coming out of the primary is going to lose a lot of elections. For years the conservatives were told to hold their nose and vote for RINO candidates---now that the shoe is on the other foot---we have "Never Trumpers" who refuse to vote for the winner----and worse yet---actually campaign against the primary winner (Lincoln Project).

Yes, how dare some dont vote for a dude that they believe is probably the most corrupt person we've had in the White House, and whom they think has violated the Office for simple self-serving reasons. The sheer terror of actually voting for a person, not for a party. How dare the masses think that.

Sorry charlie -- I have always voted for people, not parties. I have voted for positions, not party.

Maybe the solution to your first sentence is to nominate people that voters can vote for. With policies that people can vote for.

That actually worked with me in '20. Trump's policies overweighed his asshatness. Bingo, bango, bongo -- that was my vote for Trump in 20.

Trump going off the fing deep end with the continuous 'I didnt lose' schtick tested that in my case. And I still came down in his corner. His malfeasance within the operation of his office on Jan 6 tilted that for me, not to mention that he wound those people up and sent them to do a truly disgusting act --- simply because he could not bear the thought of losing the Ring of Power like an orange haired Gollum.

MaL simply solidified that for me. Sorry Charlie, I dont do the cult of personality thing as well as some.

Yes, how dare people outweigh party. How dare policies outweigh party. The audacity of that....

To be clear---there is absolutely nothing wrong with voting for the person you prefer and refusing to vote for those you dislike---nor did I ever say there was anything wrong with that. Im just stating a fact. My point is your opponent doesnt do much of that. Democrats tend to be much more loyal to party and will vote for most anyone who has the label. Whether you like it or not, the fact is the more discerning nature of Republicans puts the party at a distinct disadvantage. And before you start babbling on about "better candidates"---its doesnt matter. There will always be a stand, issue, event, or attribute to which some in the party will take offense. Its just too big a tent for that not to happen. Not for a blanket ban on abortion? Booom----lose some votes. Thats just the way it is in the two party system. Nobody can be all things to all people.

I assume the "cult of personality" shot is directed at me. Again, you'd be wrong. No surprise there. Trump was not my primary vote, but he got my election day vote because any Republican is better than Hillary. He governed with a much more conservative philosophy than I expected he would (I mean the guy used to be a Democrat)---so he got my vote again in 2020. If he is the Republican candidate in 2024 in the general election I will vote for him again---if its DeSantis---then I'll pull the lever for DeSantis (because they are both better than any Democrat thats going to be on the ballot).

The "cult of personality" isnt specifically directed at you, if at all. I dont have a clue how you formulate your choice, excepting what you have jsut said above.

Much of your comment, before the insightful (and I mean that) explanation you provided above, seemed to point to a predilection to primarily choosing a party. You point out in the segment above with some derision those 'who refuse to vote for the winner----and worse yet---actually campaign against the primary winner '. That seems like a broad indictment of those people 'who refuse to vote for the winner'.

The cult of personality was actually not well stated -- your comment seems to be such a cult but towards a party. And no, I disagree with your basis on that.

I think that if a party nominates a person with whom a voter in that party disagrees with enough, I dont have the derision that you do towards someone who does the 'worse yet --- actually campaign against the primary winner'. I dont treat a party as an act of fealty. Some do. No skin off my back on that latter postion.

My apologies if you took the 'cult of personality' comment as directed towards you. I should have been clearer and noted that it should more properly be directed towards a 'cult of personality towards a party'. It wasnt meant as an oblique shot, and my bad for not being as clear as I could have there.

I'd say my view is not so much a "cult of party" as it is basic pragmatism. Any Republican is going to lean more to my way of thinking than any democrat. Furthermore, like it or not, the 2 parties increasingly dictate the direction of the government. Truly bipartisan deals, where substantial portions of both parties vote for legislation, are largely a thing of the past. In todays binary governance---you either have control of congress or the presidency---or you do not. If you do not---then the Democrats move their agenda forward and the conservative concept of the nation is further undermined. Even if they cant pass legislation, we are seeing the growth of governing through "executive orders" and bureaucratic edicts that often have the power of law (our current energy issues stem from just that type of governance). To me, its less about the people on the ballot and more about the ultimate real life impact of continued increasingly extreme Democrat control over the levers of government.

Thats said, the basis of our system is each voter doing what he thinks is right. Thats the system and the beauty of it is that it recognizes there are different strokes for different folks.

(11-13-2022 10:34 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(11-13-2022 07:10 AM)AdoptedMonarch Wrote:  Final concession (to anticipate the response from Claw and others): Donald Trump is plainly not as bad as Joe Biden. But, sadly, that is the ONLY thing that can be said in his favor. and it is an unacceptable threshold for someone who wants to be president of this nation.

But if Joe Biden is the democrat nominee, it is the only threshold that matters.

I doubt this, his Leftists have given up on him and he doesn't even know it. THE SOB is so bad that it's like you taking your car to a lousy mechanic time after time and expect a different outcome. The Mech will just keep enjoying your money, same as with THE SOB he even said so that is that he'll do everything the same way.