(08-26-2022 12:21 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Put aside the endowment, because that doesn't matter in this discussion--if it did, the Big 10 should be calling Harvard and Yale.

they would if Harvard and Yale had full scholarships, played FBS in a power conference, and had one of the top all-around athletic programs in the country.

(08-26-2022 10:26 AM)AntiG Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 09:41 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Duke will end up where ever UNC does. Wake is the one who's screwed and NC State has to hope they can figure out a way into the other P2 league that doesn't get UNC/Duke.

in the end, the ACC leftovers will just devour the AAC just like the PAC will do the same to the MWC, and any leftovers will be scrambling to merge with each other and take some of the SBC and CUSA.

I disagree, I think that the to leftovers from the ACC will probably try to join the big 12. An Eastern Division of Cincinnatti, Louisville, VPI, UVA, NC State and WV, maybe Miami too, would be pretty nice.

(08-26-2022 01:37 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 10:26 AM)AntiG Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 09:41 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Duke will end up where ever UNC does. Wake is the one who's screwed and NC State has to hope they can figure out a way into the other P2 league that doesn't get UNC/Duke.

in the end, the ACC leftovers will just devour the AAC just like the PAC will do the same to the MWC, and any leftovers will be scrambling to merge with each other and take some of the SBC and CUSA.

I disagree, I think that the to leftovers from the ACC will probably try to join the big 12. An Eastern Division of Cincinnatti, Louisville, VPI, UVA, NC State and WV, maybe Miami too, would be pretty nice.

I think some those may still end up on the SEC, but yes, I agree that the B12 is the likely preferred target

(08-26-2022 01:34 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 01:17 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  What did you think of Globe Life Field? I used to go to a lot of Rangers games when I was a kid, one of which was the game that Nolan Ryan pitched after his 7th no hitter. He only made it 4 2/3, no doubt his arm was still a wet noodle from the last start, but it was still great.

I'm generally a traditionalist and believer in outdoor baseball.

However, on that particular day, it was 100 degrees with 60% humidity (not an exaggeration) at the 7 pm start time... so it was pretty wonderful to be inside in the air conditioning.

The biggest impression was that the concourses were a LOT more spacious than what I've seen in other ballparks, which means the concession lines weren't madhouses by comparison. I went to a Mets game at Citi Field the week before and, despite also being a relatively new ballpark itself, it was super tight and narrow that made everything crowded. So, maybe concourse space was at the top of mind! Now, I've been to Wrigley Field probably over 100 times, so that's certainly narrow and crowded in a lot of places... but it's also over 100 years old.

The sightlines were very good. Similar to Citi Field, there are definitely fewer rows per level and instead has more levels going up (unlike Wrigley Field or Guaranteed Rate Field in Chicago that both have only 2 levels with a lot of rows on each of them), so it seems more cavernous and larger than the Chicago ballparks even though the seating capacity is actually smaller than both.

The scoreboard is absolutely massive (probably bought it from the same vendor as the Cowboys). I liked that they had scoops of Blue Bell ice cream for the helmet sundaes as opposed to soft serve. (It's also funny that, without giving too much away, the season finale of Better Call Saul a couple of days later had a Blue Bell ice cream reference, so that was fresh in my mind.)

So I have one other fun baseball story, though it happened when I was an adult. About 15 years ago, I was pretty good friends with Woody Williams' brother. Woody was still pitching for the Cardinals back then, but they were facing the Astros in the NLCS. Well, the day of the game his wife was really sick so I ended up getting her ticket. I'm a Rangers fan so I don't really care who wins the game, but the atmosphere was electric. We were in a group of about 100 or so Cardinals friends/family, so every time the Cardinals did something my group was going crazy while the rest of the stands were silent, and of course every time the Astros do something the stands explode and there's complete silence in my direct vicinity. The Astros won on a walk off by Jeff Kent, I only remember that b/c we met a bunch of our friends after the game at a bar across the street and everyone was talking about his 'stache. The place exploded, but there were a whole lot of very disappointed and very quiet people around me.

(08-26-2022 01:43 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 01:37 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 10:26 AM)AntiG Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 09:41 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Duke will end up where ever UNC does. Wake is the one who's screwed and NC State has to hope they can figure out a way into the other P2 league that doesn't get UNC/Duke.

in the end, the ACC leftovers will just devour the AAC just like the PAC will do the same to the MWC, and any leftovers will be scrambling to merge with each other and take some of the SBC and CUSA.

I disagree, I think that the to leftovers from the ACC will probably try to join the big 12. An Eastern Division of Cincinnatti, Louisville, VPI, UVA, NC State and WV, maybe Miami too, would be pretty nice.

I think some those may still end up on the SEC, but yes, I agree that the B12 is the likely preferred target

Well, yeah, it depends on how many get the callup, which itself probably depends somewhat on when the ACC GoR ends or gets ground into dust.

Duke has multiple positive attributes. However, if they go to a P2 conference, the host must realize their football performance will be poor to mediocre most seasons. They receive their favorable reputation from basketball and their academic profile.

(08-26-2022 02:11 PM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  Duke has multiple positive attributes. However, if they go to a P2 conference, the host must realize their football performance will be poor to mediocre most seasons. They receive their favorable reputation from basketball and their academic profile.

Most seasons? They've been ranked once in 62 years. Admittedly, this is an old writeup, but their attendance is still very low by p5 standards. You don't see articles like this one written about teams that are going to the P2:

https://balldurham.com/2018/08/04/duke-f...ttendance/

Why were they even in the running? Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G and Duke's is smaller than that. Expansion only makes sense if the remaining schools can make money or if they can enter a new recruiting market and build a program. I have no problem saying this, UCF has more of a chance in getting in the B1G than Duke does.

(08-26-2022 04:43 PM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Why were they even in the running? Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G and Duke's is smaller than that. Expansion only makes sense if the remaining schools can make money or if they can enter a new recruiting market and build a program. I have no problem saying this, UCF has more of a chance in getting in the B1G than Duke does.

Basketball and academia.

(08-26-2022 01:33 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 07:19 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 07:02 AM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G. Duke, Miami, and Stanford all have enrollment numbers smaller than Northwestern. There's no way that Duke, let alone any of the smaller private schools, get an invite to the B1G. Expansion is about making money and these schools don't help that.

Northwestern: 22,316
Miami: 17,811
Duke: 16,780
Stanford: 16,336

BTW, Duke does not need to make money off of their conference affiliation.
They have about a $13 Billion endowment ( plus who knows how much Duke Energy Stock) and are doing well over a Billion dollars a year in research.

UVa's endowment is about $15 Billion.
Carolina is the poor boy in the group with an endowment of just a little over $8 Billion.

The three of us will call you if we're interested.

Where are you getting your numbers? This is what I found:

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=73

And I don't know about you guys, but we're not allowed to use any of our endowment on Athletics. Stanford was planning to cut a bunch of programs during Covid rather than dip into their endowment, until their alumni saved the day. I'm not saying that Duke as a private couldn't do whatever they wanted with their endowment, but I've not heard of a very wealthy private or public doing that.

,
Duke has at least three endowments. The Duke family started the American Tobacco Company and Duke Power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Energy
Duke Energy is the largest electric power generating company in the US and Duke University owns lots and lots of Duke Energy stock (not included in the endowment). Duke University has more money than you can imagine.
The endowment information came from google searches of the Universities own websites.

(08-26-2022 04:43 PM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Why were they even in the running? Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G and Duke's is smaller than that. Expansion only makes sense if the remaining schools can make money or if they can enter a new recruiting market and build a program. I have no problem saying this, UCF has more of a chance in getting in the B1G than Duke does.

Why were they in the running? Because the last time we spun the "Big Ten and SEC raid the ACC" merry-go-round, the ACC was in a stronger relative position, so a big question was "what would it take to get North Carolina to say YES to a Big Ten/SEC offer." And part of the answer to that was "bring Duke along."

At that point, 10 years ago, North Carolina decided that they were perfectly happy running their Tobacco Road kingdom, their Tobacco Road brethren were happy to stay in the ACC (except maybe for Virginia Tech, who still owed life-debt to UVA for getting them into the ACC). Florida STate and Clemson didn't really have options--the Big 12 wasn't a clear upgrade, and the SEC and Big Ten were trying to expand their cable footprint, not double-down on existing territories.

Times change.

(08-26-2022 05:06 PM)Skyhawk Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 04:43 PM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Why were they even in the running? Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G and Duke's is smaller than that. Expansion only makes sense if the remaining schools can make money or if they can enter a new recruiting market and build a program. I have no problem saying this, UCF has more of a chance in getting in the B1G than Duke does.

Basketball and academia.

I get what you're saying, but basketball and academia are 2000's type decisions. Right now, the payouts are so massive that football is a must and Duke just doesn't have it.

(08-26-2022 05:17 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 04:43 PM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Why were they even in the running? Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G and Duke's is smaller than that. Expansion only makes sense if the remaining schools can make money or if they can enter a new recruiting market and build a program. I have no problem saying this, UCF has more of a chance in getting in the B1G than Duke does.

Why were they in the running? Because the last time we spun the "Big Ten and SEC raid the ACC" merry-go-round, the ACC was in a stronger relative position, so a big question was "what would it take to get North Carolina to say YES to a Big Ten/SEC offer." And part of the answer to that was "bring Duke along."

At that point, 10 years ago, North Carolina decided that they were perfectly happy running their Tobacco Road kingdom, their Tobacco Road brethren were happy to stay in the ACC (except maybe for Virginia Tech, who still owed life-debt to UVA for getting them into the ACC). Florida STate and Clemson didn't really have options--the Big 12 wasn't a clear upgrade, and the SEC and Big Ten were trying to expand their cable footprint, not double-down on existing territories.

Times change.

Considering when the GOR ends, the TV payouts will probably be so massive that North Carolina can's get either of the B1G or SEC to take Duke with them. TV executives aren't going to pay for Duke football. I'm guessing from a financial standpoint; it would be better to invite NC State than to take the combo of North Carolina and Duke.

(08-26-2022 05:12 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 01:33 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 07:19 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 07:02 AM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G. Duke, Miami, and Stanford all have enrollment numbers smaller than Northwestern. There's no way that Duke, let alone any of the smaller private schools, get an invite to the B1G. Expansion is about making money and these schools don't help that.

Northwestern: 22,316
Miami: 17,811
Duke: 16,780
Stanford: 16,336

BTW, Duke does not need to make money off of their conference affiliation.
They have about a $13 Billion endowment ( plus who knows how much Duke Energy Stock) and are doing well over a Billion dollars a year in research.

UVa's endowment is about $15 Billion.
Carolina is the poor boy in the group with an endowment of just a little over $8 Billion.

The three of us will call you if we're interested.

Where are you getting your numbers? This is what I found:

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=73

And I don't know about you guys, but we're not allowed to use any of our endowment on Athletics. Stanford was planning to cut a bunch of programs during Covid rather than dip into their endowment, until their alumni saved the day. I'm not saying that Duke as a private couldn't do whatever they wanted with their endowment, but I've not heard of a very wealthy private or public doing that.

,
Duke has at least three endowments. The Duke family started the American Tobacco Company and Duke Power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Energy
Duke Energy is the largest electric power generating company in the US and Duke University owns lots and lots of Duke Energy stock (not included in the endowment). Duke University has more money than you can imagine.
The endowment information came from google searches of the Universities own websites.

I've never seen academic endowments suited up for any kind of sport!

(08-26-2022 05:52 PM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 05:17 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 04:43 PM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Why were they even in the running? Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G and Duke's is smaller than that. Expansion only makes sense if the remaining schools can make money or if they can enter a new recruiting market and build a program. I have no problem saying this, UCF has more of a chance in getting in the B1G than Duke does.

Why were they in the running? Because the last time we spun the "Big Ten and SEC raid the ACC" merry-go-round, the ACC was in a stronger relative position, so a big question was "what would it take to get North Carolina to say YES to a Big Ten/SEC offer." And part of the answer to that was "bring Duke along."

At that point, 10 years ago, North Carolina decided that they were perfectly happy running their Tobacco Road kingdom, their Tobacco Road brethren were happy to stay in the ACC (except maybe for Virginia Tech, who still owed life-debt to UVA for getting them into the ACC). Florida STate and Clemson didn't really have options--the Big 12 wasn't a clear upgrade, and the SEC and Big Ten were trying to expand their cable footprint, not double-down on existing territories.

Times change.

Considering when the GOR ends, the TV payouts will probably be so massive that North Carolina can's get either of the B1G or SEC to take Duke with them.

I think that conditions have changed enough that if the GOR vanished tomorrow somehow, UNC would have a hard time bringing Duke along, if that were even a priority for them at this point in negotiating between the Big Ten and SEC.

Quote:TV executives aren't going to pay for Duke football. I'm guessing from a financial standpoint; it would be better to invite NC State than to take the combo of North Carolina and Duke.

Of course a lot depends on whether the TV network money fairies decide that 20 or 24 is the magic number. (I'm really not sure there's anything besides Notre Dame that raises the bar for the SEC/Big Ten at this point.)

(08-26-2022 05:58 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 05:12 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 01:33 PM)bryanw1995 Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 07:19 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 07:02 AM)Jeff Smithers Wrote:  Northwestern has the smallest enrollment in the B1G. Duke, Miami, and Stanford all have enrollment numbers smaller than Northwestern. There's no way that Duke, let alone any of the smaller private schools, get an invite to the B1G. Expansion is about making money and these schools don't help that.

Northwestern: 22,316
Miami: 17,811
Duke: 16,780
Stanford: 16,336

BTW, Duke does not need to make money off of their conference affiliation.
They have about a $13 Billion endowment ( plus who knows how much Duke Energy Stock) and are doing well over a Billion dollars a year in research.

UVa's endowment is about $15 Billion.
Carolina is the poor boy in the group with an endowment of just a little over $8 Billion.

The three of us will call you if we're interested.

Where are you getting your numbers? This is what I found:

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=73

And I don't know about you guys, but we're not allowed to use any of our endowment on Athletics. Stanford was planning to cut a bunch of programs during Covid rather than dip into their endowment, until their alumni saved the day. I'm not saying that Duke as a private couldn't do whatever they wanted with their endowment, but I've not heard of a very wealthy private or public doing that.

,
Duke has at least three endowments. The Duke family started the American Tobacco Company and Duke Power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Energy
Duke Energy is the largest electric power generating company in the US and Duke University owns lots and lots of Duke Energy stock (not included in the endowment). Duke University has more money than you can imagine.
The endowment information came from google searches of the Universities own websites.

I've never seen academic endowments suited up for any kind of sport!

Right!

Endowments are not holding the ACC together.

Those willing to self-finance via endowment if left out of P2, like Miami, may therefore get an invite.

But no school is passing on P2 because they will just tap into endowments to offset

I am a Spartan and went to grad school at Duke. Football games were non events on campus when I was at Duke. Duke is a great academic school with a top ranked medical center and highly ranked research. If the opportunity arises, I cant imagine the BIG passing up an opportunity to affiliate in some form or fashion with Duke. I think prestige, academics and research will be deciding factors in this relationship. That far surpasses any money associated with sporting events.

(08-26-2022 08:21 PM)Sparty84 Wrote:  I am a Spartan and went to grad school at Duke. Football games were non events on campus when I was at Duke.

Duke's FCS doppleganger, Georgetown, faces many of the same attendance problems and losing ways. Students have a lot of competing interests and attractions and playing nondescript opponents is not enough to grab their attention.

If Duke gets a football lifeline, good for them. No one is calling the Hoyas.

(08-26-2022 08:46 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(08-26-2022 08:21 PM)Sparty84 Wrote:  I am a Spartan and went to grad school at Duke. Football games were non events on campus when I was at Duke.

Duke's FCS doppleganger, Georgetown, faces many of the same attendance problems and losing ways. Students have a lot of competing interests and attractions and playing nondescript opponents is not enough to grab their attention.

If Duke gets a football lifeline, good for them. No one is calling the Hoyas.

As a long-time Vanderbilt fan (and semi-fan of Georgetown) who ... attendance is a challenge for such schools (including Duke). Lots of the students and alumni are simply not interested. I get it.

Maybe Duke should go independent in basketball.