(07-07-2022 01:37 PM)PlayBall! Wrote:  We'd listen, but then politely say no to the PAC-10. Now if it were the B1G or SEC asking ...

....what if it were the ACC asking?

Same. If things stay as they are, of course.

(07-07-2022 12:46 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:43 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:30 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Kansas (BB brand)
Gonzaga (BB brand)
Hawaii FB (takes reduced payout)

Surely there has to be value in a BB conference with Gonzaga, Zona and Kansas.

1) Is it worth it to Kansas to forego $80 million in Big 12 revenue to join the PAC? If all things were equal maybe, but all things aren’t equal.

3) With conference title games being deregulated, what does Hawaii bring to the table to warrant expanding?

As to Gonzaga, yes I think that’s a strong addition and makes sense for both parties, provided the existing PAC members stick together.

I don't know about Hawaii but I do know BB has value maybe not so much in raising per school TV numbers but adding overall conference revenue.

Why exactly would KS leave the Big 12 for the PAC? The Big 12 is a much better BB league and the Big 12 gets far more money than the PAC. Add in the central time zone vs the pacific and there is zero chance KS would leave the Big 12 for the PAC.

(07-07-2022 02:08 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:46 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:43 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:30 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Kansas (BB brand)
Gonzaga (BB brand)
Hawaii FB (takes reduced payout)

Surely there has to be value in a BB conference with Gonzaga, Zona and Kansas.

1) Is it worth it to Kansas to forego $80 million in Big 12 revenue to join the PAC? If all things were equal maybe, but all things aren’t equal.

3) With conference title games being deregulated, what does Hawaii bring to the table to warrant expanding?

As to Gonzaga, yes I think that’s a strong addition and makes sense for both parties, provided the existing PAC members stick together.

I don't know about Hawaii but I do know BB has value maybe not so much in raising per school TV numbers but adding overall conference revenue.

Why exactly would KS leave the Big 12 for the PAC? The Big 12 is a much better BB league and the Big 12 gets far more money than the PAC. Add in the central time zone vs the pacific and there is zero chance KS would leave the Big 12 for the PAC.

XII is a much better BB league than the PAC. It was so even with UCLA/USC.

My point is the PAC might want to expand to pick up its BB revenue if anything.

(07-07-2022 02:08 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:46 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:43 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:30 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Kansas (BB brand)
Gonzaga (BB brand)
Hawaii FB (takes reduced payout)

Surely there has to be value in a BB conference with Gonzaga, Zona and Kansas.

1) Is it worth it to Kansas to forego $80 million in Big 12 revenue to join the PAC? If all things were equal maybe, but all things aren’t equal.

3) With conference title games being deregulated, what does Hawaii bring to the table to warrant expanding?

As to Gonzaga, yes I think that’s a strong addition and makes sense for both parties, provided the existing PAC members stick together.

I don't know about Hawaii but I do know BB has value maybe not so much in raising per school TV numbers but adding overall conference revenue.

Why exactly would KS leave the Big 12 for the PAC? The Big 12 is a much better BB league and the Big 12 gets far more money than the PAC. Add in the central time zone vs the pacific and there is zero chance KS would leave the Big 12 for the PAC.

The arguments for it are mostly snobbery. Kansas is (sees itself as) a blue blood state flagship, in a conference now with very Mormon BYU, a couple of decidedly second-tier state or public universities (Iowa STate, Kansas State, Oklahoma STate, UCF, Houston, Texas TEch) and Baylor, who is very religious while being scandal-plagued. Cal, Stanford, Washington, Oregon, Cal, the Four Corners schools are a snootier neighborhood.

Think of the BB the PAC would have with Kansas, Gonzaga, Baylor, Tech and Oklahoma State.

That is additive to me. That tells the networks to place the money with the PAC and not the XII.

(07-07-2022 12:15 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  They are forgetting here that Kansas is brand level material in basketball.

KU would probably bring the PAC SOS up in basketball enough to account for 2 entrants into the NCAAT.

OSU brings FB strength that would help the league if not for TV revenues but other conference revs.

Throw in Baylor and Texas Tech you have a top BB conference.

This is EXACTLY what I said this past few months. It's all brands. Once the 2 brands leave Big 12 they aren't going to get the major window again. Cincy-BYU, UCF-KSU just isn't going to happen at 330pm on ABC.

(07-07-2022 02:20 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Think of the BB the PAC would have with Kansas, Gonzaga, Baylor, Tech and Oklahoma State.

That is additive to me. That tells the networks to place the money with the PAC and not the XII.

I don't expect Baylor and TTech to be good in 10 years, not consistently anyway.

(07-07-2022 02:14 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 02:08 PM)jacksfan29! Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:46 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:43 PM)Just Joe Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 12:30 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Kansas (BB brand)
Gonzaga (BB brand)
Hawaii FB (takes reduced payout)

Surely there has to be value in a BB conference with Gonzaga, Zona and Kansas.

1) Is it worth it to Kansas to forego $80 million in Big 12 revenue to join the PAC? If all things were equal maybe, but all things aren’t equal.

3) With conference title games being deregulated, what does Hawaii bring to the table to warrant expanding?

As to Gonzaga, yes I think that’s a strong addition and makes sense for both parties, provided the existing PAC members stick together.

I don't know about Hawaii but I do know BB has value maybe not so much in raising per school TV numbers but adding overall conference revenue.

Why exactly would KS leave the Big 12 for the PAC? The Big 12 is a much better BB league and the Big 12 gets far more money than the PAC. Add in the central time zone vs the pacific and there is zero chance KS would leave the Big 12 for the PAC.

The arguments for it are mostly snobbery. Kansas is (sees itself as) a blue blood state flagship, in a conference now with very Mormon BYU, a couple of decidedly second-tier state or public universities (Iowa STate, Kansas State, Oklahoma STate, UCF, Houston, Texas TEch) and Baylor, who is very religious while being scandal-plagued. Cal, Stanford, Washington, Oregon, Cal, the Four Corners schools are a snootier neighborhood.

Right - at its core, don't ever discount this in academia.

While the popular argument is to say that realignment decisions just need to throw academic requirements out the window, we should also remember that the huge moves that just occurred of Texas/Oklahoma to the SEC and USC/UCLA to the Big Ten didn't require any compromises on academics. Those moves weren't *driven* by academics(let's not pretend that they were driven by anything other than massive amounts of money), but UT, USC and UCLA are all straight up elite academic schools and OU is still a public flagship. Both the SEC and Big Ten are better academic conferences with these expansion moves than they were before.

If the Pac-12 (10?) stays together as-is, I definitely see the attraction here for Kansas on that basis. That would especially be the case if the Pac-12 manages to have some type of media rights pool with the ACC because that would provide KU some downside protection even a school like Oregon or Washington ends up leaving the Pac-12 down the road. 12 years ago, KU was in a Big 12 league with a bunch of AAU schools... and they have ALL left (and the one former AAU school that didn't leave, Iowa State, just dropped its AAU status). That still matters to university presidents.

(07-07-2022 02:25 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 02:20 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Think of the BB the PAC would have with Kansas, Gonzaga, Baylor, Tech and Oklahoma State.

That is additive to me. That tells the networks to place the money with the PAC and not the XII.

I don't expect Baylor and TTech to be good in 10 years, not consistently anyway.

They are no doubt better than the rump-PAC in FB/BB so they at a minimum add to the middle of the conference and make NCAAs.

(07-07-2022 01:23 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

That 99 year GOR is what the XII with OU/UT had to agree to for a major TV deal to even get done last time around.

This time its questionable the XII will be able to get more than AAC money once they sit down at the XII sits down at the negotiating table.

You’ve posted about a “99 year GOR” on multiple threads. The GOR expires in 2025. The membership agreement (requiring 2 years of distributions) for any conference is theoretically indefinite, though spelled out as 99 years for legal purposes.

(07-07-2022 02:44 PM)Crayton Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:23 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

That 99 year GOR is what the XII with OU/UT had to agree to for a major TV deal to even get done last time around.

This time its questionable the XII will be able to get more than AAC money once they sit down at the XII sits down at the negotiating table.

You’ve posted about a “99 year GOR” on multiple threads. The GOR expires in 2025. The membership agreement (requiring 2 years of distributions) for any conference is theoretically indefinite, though spelled out as 99 years for legal purposes.

I keep saying it because the idea of a 99 year agreement is an albatross.

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

EDIT: There's also a separate clause in the bylaws that says that if a school is acting shady, the Big 12 can declare them withdrawing and start withholding distributions. They haven't used that on Texas and Oklahoma, presumably because UT and OU are playing nice and staying until 2025 and not challenging the GOR. But if Kansas or TCU or whoever was planning to withdraw effective July 1 2026, the Big 12 would withhold for 2024 and 2025 just in case the TV contract is not good.

Does OUT still have voting rights? Because if so, the PAC could offer KU, KSU, OSU, Tech, TCU, and Baylor giving them 8 votes to dissolve the Big XII conference. Would that be enough?

In essence this creates a P4. Even if ND goes to the B1G, the ACC could reload with WVU and Cincinnati without much disruption. Maybe, just maybe this would quiet things down for another decade or so and we could all enjoy college sports. Well, at least until the ACC GOR expire...

(07-07-2022 02:47 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 02:44 PM)Crayton Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:23 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

That 99 year GOR is what the XII with OU/UT had to agree to for a major TV deal to even get done last time around.

This time its questionable the XII will be able to get more than AAC money once they sit down at the XII sits down at the negotiating table.

You’ve posted about a “99 year GOR” on multiple threads. The GOR expires in 2025. The membership agreement (requiring 2 years of distributions) for any conference is theoretically indefinite, though spelled out as 99 years for legal purposes.

I keep saying it because the idea of a 99 year agreement is an albatross.

Yes, we all agree it would be if it existed, but it doesn't - so what's your point?

(07-07-2022 02:47 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 02:44 PM)Crayton Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:23 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

That 99 year GOR is what the XII with OU/UT had to agree to for a major TV deal to even get done last time around.

This time its questionable the XII will be able to get more than AAC money once they sit down at the XII sits down at the negotiating table.

You’ve posted about a “99 year GOR” on multiple threads. The GOR expires in 2025. The membership agreement (requiring 2 years of distributions) for any conference is theoretically indefinite, though spelled out as 99 years for legal purposes.

I keep saying it because the idea of a 99 year agreement is an albatross.

That's fine, but could you please stop being repetitively wrong?

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not.

(07-07-2022 02:55 PM)Shox Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

EDIT: There's also a separate clause in the bylaws that says that if a school is acting shady, the Big 12 can declare them withdrawing and start withholding distributions. They haven't used that on Texas and Oklahoma, presumably because UT and OU are playing nice and staying until 2025 and not challenging the GOR. But if Kansas or TCU or whoever was planning to withdraw effective July 1 2026, the Big 12 would withhold for 2024 and 2025 just in case the TV contract is not good.

Does OUT still have voting rights? Because if so, the PAC could add KU, KSU, OSU, Tech, TCU, and Baylor giving them 8 votes to dissolve the conference. Would that be enough?

Nope. They're withdrawing, their voting rights terminate. (I don't have receipts that they have given the Big 12 a notice of withdrawal, or that the Big 12 has delcared them to have withdrawn. But under the heading of "dogs that didn't bark", you didn't see any news stories about OUT not getting their Big 12 distribution checks this spring.)

(07-07-2022 01:23 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

That 99 year GOR is what the XII with OU/UT had to agree to for a major TV deal to even get done last time around.

This time its questionable the XII will be able to get more than AAC money once they sit down at the XII sits down at the negotiating table.

Stop repeating this lie. There is no 99 year GOR. That is a lie. You are lying every time you post it.

(07-07-2022 03:34 PM)cc22 Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:23 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

That 99 year GOR is what the XII with OU/UT had to agree to for a major TV deal to even get done last time around.

This time its questionable the XII will be able to get more than AAC money once they sit down at the XII sits down at the negotiating table.

Stop repeating this lie. There is no 99 year GOR. That is a lie. You are lying every time you post it.

The reason why the dialog has been about the XII approaching the PAC because the legal standard for having a vote to dissolve the GOR says you are considered a non-voting member the second you begin negotiating with another conference, even if an invite is not received.

Im sure in 99 years you're still going to be tailgating at games secretly waiting for it all to be over.

(07-07-2022 03:38 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 03:34 PM)cc22 Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:23 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:19 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-07-2022 01:10 PM)cc22 Wrote:  Don't forget that any school leaving the Big 12 would owe two years of distributions (probably over $90 million).

(Snipped, in the hopes that a shorter message gets through to those who don't read paragraphs. Two years of distributions)

If this is to be understood correctly, it's a massive financial pain in the ass for anyone leaving the conference.

And once more, for those just joining us: The Big 12 exit fee is separate from the Grant of Rights. GOR expires, the exit fee bylaw does not. (Might expire after 99 years from 2012 or so, but who cares)

That 99 year GOR is what the XII with OU/UT had to agree to for a major TV deal to even get done last time around.

This time its questionable the XII will be able to get more than AAC money once they sit down at the XII sits down at the negotiating table.

Stop repeating this lie. There is no 99 year GOR. That is a lie. You are lying every time you post it.

The reason why the dialog has been about the XII approaching the PAC because the legal standard for having a vote to dissolve the GOR says you are considered a non-voting member the second you begin negotiating with another conference, even if an invite is not received.

Im sure in 99 years you're still going to be tailgating at games secretly waiting for it all to be over.

No, but in 99 years you'll still be wrong about the simple fact that the grant of rights isn't 99 years.

Also, from the bylaws:

Quote:1.2.3 Agreement to Membership. Each Member agrees with the Conference and with each of the other Members to remain a member of the Conference for ninety-nine (99) years beginning July 1, 2012.

https://www.thefocus.news/sports/big-12s...of-rights/

Quote:The Big 12’s grant of rights agreement expires in 2025, meaning there are four years left on its 13-year agreement.

In practice the Big 12 has settled for about fifty cents on the dollar (Nebraska, Colorado, Missouri, Texas A&M), which was withholding a single year as they walked out almost immediately.

I don't see that likely to change should a school bolt. Also incoming schools like Houston can be intercepted without real penalty.