(06-21-2022 04:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.

Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
[i]Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator
"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

All or most of those men also thought it was a good ideal to own other people. Then work them daylight to dark, to beat them, chain them, and to sell them off and destroy families if the color of your skin was black. Some or most of those men also were taking their black female slaves and sleeping with them while their wife was in the main house...

how very Christian of them

I fail to see how their beliefs in god relates to this country or our constitution it seems to me they went beyond their beliefs and tried to keep them out of it.. I have no problem with "our constitution was based off it" because most laws are started from Christian or morals. But can you show me where you gets to decide if its Christian or morally? I believe what you will find is you get to decide that part for yourself and your minor child but not for anyone else.

(06-21-2022 07:16 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 04:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.

Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
[i]Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator
"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

All or most of those men also thought it was a good ideal to own other people. Then work them daylight to dark, to beat them, chain them, and to sell them off and destroy families if the color of your skin was black. Some or most of those men also were taking their black female slaves and sleeping with them while their wife was in the main house...

how very Christian of them

I fail to see how their beliefs in god relates to this country or our constitution it seems to me they went beyond their beliefs and tried to keep them out of it.. I have no problem with "our constitution was based off it" because most laws are started from Christian or morals. But can you show me where you gets to decide if its Christian or morally? I believe what you will find is you get to decide that part for yourself and your minor child but not for anyone else.

It seems to be people often think the lack of religion equals the lack of morality. Christian morality has evolved through the ages along with morality of society in general. I'm fairly certain the founding fathers would look upon what mainstream churches today are and think they are heretic. I don't want a country dominated by the LGBTQ++++ coddlers anymore than I want a world dominated by people that make their women wear bags over their bodies or people that don't let their wives wear pants or cut their hair.

(06-21-2022 07:16 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 04:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.

Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
[i]Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator
"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

All or most of those men also thought it was a good ideal to own other people. Then work them daylight to dark, to beat them, chain them, and to sell them off and destroy families if the color of your skin was black. Some or most of those men also were taking their black female slaves and sleeping with them while their wife was in the main house...

how very Christian of them

I fail to see how their beliefs in god relates to this country or our constitution it seems to me they went beyond their beliefs and tried to keep them out of it.. I have no problem with "our constitution was based off it" because most laws are started from Christian or morals. But can you show me where you gets to decide if its Christian or morally? I believe what you will find is you get to decide that part for yourself and your minor child but not for anyone else.

You're wrong about that. Delegates from the South owned slaves and wanted their slaves to count as population for assigning delegates. They would get more representation in Congress that way.

Northerners did not endorse the institution of slavery by and large. In fact, emancipation efforts had already been under way for quite a while. They understood that the more representation held by the South the harder it would be to end slavery.

The northern delegates played to the Southerners' argument:
- You consider slaves to be your property
- You want to count property toward assignment of delegates
- We will count our property as well -- cows, horses, pigs, mules, etc

Because of this they were able to "compromise" and say that 3/5 of the slave population would count toward delegates in Congress.

To say the "all" or even "almost all" of them agreed with the institution of slavery is simply wrong and has no basis in history.

We can start with short explanations and move on to ones more detailed and in-depth.

(06-21-2022 08:00 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 07:16 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 04:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
[i]Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator
"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

All or most of those men also thought it was a good ideal to own other people. Then work them daylight to dark, to beat them, chain them, and to sell them off and destroy families if the color of your skin was black. Some or most of those men also were taking their black female slaves and sleeping with them while their wife was in the main house...

how very Christian of them

I fail to see how their beliefs in god relates to this country or our constitution it seems to me they went beyond their beliefs and tried to keep them out of it.. I have no problem with "our constitution was based off it" because most laws are started from Christian or morals. But can you show me where you gets to decide if its Christian or morally? I believe what you will find is you get to decide that part for yourself and your minor child but not for anyone else.

It seems to be people often think the lack of religion equals the lack of morality. Christian morality has evolved through the ages along with morality of society in general. I'm fairly certain the founding fathers would look upon what mainstream churches today are and think they are heretic. I don't want a country dominated by the LGBTQ++++ coddlers anymore than I want a world dominated by people that make their women wear bags over their bodies or people that don't let their wives wear pants or cut their hair.

I wish this country could push both extremes to the side and get to the middle. When something is so extreme it believes it has to be their way or no way. No matter which side they are on. Its not what most of America wants.

I believe at least 80% of this country understands people are different and have different views on life. They are willing to respect those views even if they don't agree personally. You're not special just because you are gay or what ever and you're not special just because you believe your life should be ran by the bible.

Some how because both are usually the loudest voice they and some in our government believe they are special. We are losing this country because of that. But mostly by the extremes on the far left

Here's a famous painting of the signing of the Declaration of Independence. There are 56 men in this picture.

Please name all of those who were slave owners or supporters of slavery.

(06-21-2022 08:35 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 08:00 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 07:16 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 04:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
[i]Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator
"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

All or most of those men also thought it was a good ideal to own other people. Then work them daylight to dark, to beat them, chain them, and to sell them off and destroy families if the color of your skin was black. Some or most of those men also were taking their black female slaves and sleeping with them while their wife was in the main house...

how very Christian of them

I fail to see how their beliefs in god relates to this country or our constitution it seems to me they went beyond their beliefs and tried to keep them out of it.. I have no problem with "our constitution was based off it" because most laws are started from Christian or morals. But can you show me where you gets to decide if its Christian or morally? I believe what you will find is you get to decide that part for yourself and your minor child but not for anyone else.

It seems to be people often think the lack of religion equals the lack of morality. Christian morality has evolved through the ages along with morality of society in general. I'm fairly certain the founding fathers would look upon what mainstream churches today are and think they are heretic. I don't want a country dominated by the LGBTQ++++ coddlers anymore than I want a world dominated by people that make their women wear bags over their bodies or people that don't let their wives wear pants or cut their hair.

I wish this country could push both extremes to the side and get to the middle. When something is so extreme it believes it has to be their way or no way. No matter which side they are on. Its not what most of America wants.

I believe at least 80% of this country understands people are different and have different views on life. They are willing to respect those views even if they don't agree personally. You're not special just because you are gay or what ever and you're not special just because you believe your life should be ran by the bible.

Some how because both are usually the loudest voice they and some in our government believe they are special. We are losing this country because of that. But mostly by the extremes on the far left

I understand your point, but what actually defines "the middle"?

What's the middle on monetary policy?

What's the middle on abortion?

Gay rights?

Diplomacy?

War?

The border?

Immigration policy?


Our country was united early and thrived because, as Washington said in his Farewell Address:

Quote:Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.

It is much easier to agree and have meaningful compromise when everyone is starting from very similar positions.

(06-21-2022 08:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 07:16 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 04:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
[i]Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator
"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

All or most of those men also thought it was a good ideal to own other people. Then work them daylight to dark, to beat them, chain them, and to sell them off and destroy families if the color of your skin was black. Some or most of those men also were taking their black female slaves and sleeping with them while their wife was in the main house...

how very Christian of them

I fail to see how their beliefs in god relates to this country or our constitution it seems to me they went beyond their beliefs and tried to keep them out of it.. I have no problem with "our constitution was based off it" because most laws are started from Christian or morals. But can you show me where you gets to decide if its Christian or morally? I believe what you will find is you get to decide that part for yourself and your minor child but not for anyone else.

You're wrong about that. Delegates from the South owned slaves and wanted their slaves to count as population for assigning delegates. They would get more representation in Congress that way.

Northerners did not endorse the institution of slavery by and large. In fact, emancipation efforts had already been under way for quite a while. They understood that the more representation held by the South the harder it would be to end slavery.

The northern delegates played to the Southerners' argument:
- You consider slaves to be your property
- You want to count property toward assignment of delegates
- We will count our property as well -- cows, horses, pigs, mules, etc

Because of this they were able to "compromise" and say that 3/5 of the slave population would count toward delegates in Congress.

To say the "all" or even "almost all" of them agreed with the institution of slavery is simply wrong and has no basis in history.

We can start with short explanations and move on to ones more detailed and in-depth.

I usually dont lock myself into these back and froths and I'm ending this one on the one thing we do agree on.

This country getting back to a strong family background can cure a lot of problems. I'm going to leave it at that because we just different in these other areas. I'm not saying 100% or even close to that but still different how we think about imposing our personal beliefs on to others.

I'm a small l libertarian.

The Large L Libertarian Party is filled with comic book guys, furries, and dungeon and dragons fans.

(06-21-2022 09:53 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I'm a small l libertarian.

The Large L Libertarian Party is filled with comic book guys, furries, and dungeon and dragons fans.

This one made me laugh, due to the incredible accuracy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

(06-21-2022 09:53 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I'm a small l libertarian.

The Large L Libertarian Party is filled with comic book guys, furries, and dungeon and dragons fans.

Me too.

(06-21-2022 08:47 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 08:28 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 07:16 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 04:54 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
[i]Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator
"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

All or most of those men also thought it was a good ideal to own other people. Then work them daylight to dark, to beat them, chain them, and to sell them off and destroy families if the color of your skin was black. Some or most of those men also were taking their black female slaves and sleeping with them while their wife was in the main house...

how very Christian of them

I fail to see how their beliefs in god relates to this country or our constitution it seems to me they went beyond their beliefs and tried to keep them out of it.. I have no problem with "our constitution was based off it" because most laws are started from Christian or morals. But can you show me where you gets to decide if its Christian or morally? I believe what you will find is you get to decide that part for yourself and your minor child but not for anyone else.

You're wrong about that. Delegates from the South owned slaves and wanted their slaves to count as population for assigning delegates. They would get more representation in Congress that way.

Northerners did not endorse the institution of slavery by and large. In fact, emancipation efforts had already been under way for quite a while. They understood that the more representation held by the South the harder it would be to end slavery.

The northern delegates played to the Southerners' argument:
- You consider slaves to be your property
- You want to count property toward assignment of delegates
- We will count our property as well -- cows, horses, pigs, mules, etc

Because of this they were able to "compromise" and say that 3/5 of the slave population would count toward delegates in Congress.

To say the "all" or even "almost all" of them agreed with the institution of slavery is simply wrong and has no basis in history.

We can start with short explanations and move on to ones more detailed and in-depth.

I usually dont lock myself into these back and froths and I'm ending this one on the one thing we do agree on.

This country getting back to a strong family background can cure a lot of problems. I'm going to leave it at that because we just different in these other areas. I'm not saying 100% or even close to that but still different how we think about imposing our personal beliefs on to others.

Understood. And I'm glad we -- and many others -- see that a strong nuclear family structure is not only good but also necessary for a nation to be strong.

As far as pushing personal beliefs on others, that's the nature of political operations. Somebody proposes legislation they want, they get others on board and then they pass a law.

That law represents their beliefs which they impose on everyone. Sure, there may be millions of people who agree with them. But those beliefs do get imposed on everyone.


I'm simply suggesting that we already have a core set of beliefs which were imposed on us by men who fought for this nation's existence. They explained that their experiment - a government of free men by free men -- would only be able to exist as long as the citizens conducted their public and private lives according to religious morality. Without it they knew this form of government would not be able to stand.


So here we are. We have many people wanting to abandon those principles and others who want to embrace them. But it really comes down to what those in charge do.

(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.

Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

You can dance around the point all you want but the bottom line is this country and it's entire legal system was developed under Judeo-Christian values. The further we've gotten away from them the more degenerate the country has become. Every problem we're facing in our society is somehow tied back to a failure in one way or another to follow Biblical truths... and yes some owned slaves but ironically the very document our founding fathers created allowed for equality. We live in a nation that literally endorses homosexuality, transgenderism and killing of unborn children. I'm not going to stand by and be silent about it because supposedly it's "not my business". It absolutely is my business.

(06-21-2022 02:59 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 02:30 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(06-21-2022 02:21 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Libertarianism has no real answer to how corporations (especially Big Tech) threaten free speech.

Sure they do. Big Tech doesn't own the internet/airwaves so they can censor as they see fit, and people can take their business/speech elsewhere.

Of course they crush any kind of serious competition. And an increasing number of people get news from the internet and if they're censoring stories like the Hunter Biden laptop and deplatforming political speech with no real consistent rules other than bans on vaguely-defined "hate speech", that's a big problem.

How exactly would you crush 'free' internet? I'm not trying to be belligerent... I just think you're off base here (or I'm not understanding you).

Apple can't stop me from accessing CNN or Fox or any other website and if they do, Samsung (or NewCo) will allow me to access it.

To the extent that big tech could do as you suggest, they can clearly do that already... so we're not worse off... and we're better off under libertarian because CNN doesn't have preferential access to policy makers.

I understand the argument. However, it doesn't effectively account for collusion among the suppliers. MSM is a great example. If NBC and ABC goes completely woke, you would think CBS would go the other way to grab market share that is largely ignored. You have one - FOX - that did go in a different direction. But that's cable news. I'm still surprised that one of the major networks didn't exploit the void.

(06-22-2022 09:44 AM)miko33 Wrote:  If NBC and ABC goes completely woke, you would think CBS would go the other way to grab market share that is largely ignored. You have one - FOX - that did go in a different direction. But that's cable news. I'm still surprised that one of the major networks didn't exploit the void.

I've never understood this. It's a large and lucrative opportunity. I thought FOX was a brilliant business idea. I don't know why one of the on-the-air networks has not followed suit.