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You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
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miko33 Away
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Post: #1
You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
...when they jump all in with this clown.

https://reason.com/video/2022/06/17/just...ian-party/

The problem is the guy talks a great game. However, when you stick your flag in ground to impeach a president on facts that later turn out to be false... Your judgement sucks. Why should anyone trust this guy?
06-21-2022 01:03 PM
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AdoptedMonarch Offline
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Post: #2
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
Libertarianism is attractive because it is grounded in simple principles. A true Libertarian is less prone to being called out for double standards and hypocrisy.

And it's all just good liberty-loving fun - - until it's not. Bottom line, Libertarianism is flawed because human beings are flawed. We as a race cannot sensibly behave in a Libertarian society. Without gov'tal control, we ultimately will all kill ourselves and everyone around us.

A terrific documentary: "Class Action Park". It is an amusing, but also slightly scary, illustration of libertarianism run amok.
06-21-2022 01:17 PM
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
Libertarianism works fine in theory. It's when it is attempted to be put into practice where the problem begins.
06-21-2022 01:23 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #4
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
As Milton Friedman once said, "I am libertarian with a small l and a Republican with a capital R on grounds of expediency."
06-21-2022 01:35 PM
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EigenEagle Offline
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Post: #5
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
Libertarianism has no real answer to how corporations (especially Big Tech) threaten free speech.
06-21-2022 02:21 PM
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
I can't watch the video, but I find today's libertarians have little in common with the original libertarians. The original libertarians are big on individual liberty, but still leave plenty of room for government. Modern libertarians are really more like anarchists.. taking individual liberty but ignoring the submission to the collective that goes along with ANY government.

Libertarians, including modern libertarians don't give a damn about your lifestyle or gender identity or 90% of what our government focuses on today... they only really care about production, either their own or those with whom they engage in trade with. This makes them liberal, just for different reasons.
06-21-2022 02:28 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:21 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Libertarianism has no real answer to how corporations (especially Big Tech) threaten free speech.

Sure they do. Big Tech doesn't own the internet/airwaves so they can censor as they see fit, and people can take their business/speech elsewhere.
06-21-2022 02:30 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.
06-21-2022 02:37 PM
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EigenEagle Offline
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:30 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:21 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Libertarianism has no real answer to how corporations (especially Big Tech) threaten free speech.

Sure they do. Big Tech doesn't own the internet/airwaves so they can censor as they see fit, and people can take their business/speech elsewhere.

Of course they crush any kind of serious competition. And an increasing number of people get news from the internet and if they're censoring stories like the Hunter Biden laptop and deplatforming political speech with no real consistent rules other than bans on vaguely-defined "hate speech", that's a big problem.
06-21-2022 02:47 PM
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WKUYG Away
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I can't watch the video, but I find today's libertarians have little in common with the original libertarians. The original libertarians are big on individual liberty, but still leave plenty of room for government. Modern libertarians are really more like anarchists.. taking individual liberty but ignoring the submission to the collective that goes along with ANY government.

Libertarians, including modern libertarians don't give a damn about your lifestyle or gender identity or 90% of what our government focuses on today... they only really care about production, either their own or those with whom they engage in trade with. This makes them liberal, just for different reasons.

In my opinion this 100% nails it.

While I agree with the libertarians ways this country was built on. I cant stand todays (last 30 years) libertarians, democrats or republicans.

Its why I dont vote on party but on which issues are most important to me. In the end I know that person will let me down. I can only think of one that hasnt on issues they ran on. I will never vote for a libertarian because its a waste, along with just another vote for a hypocrite. Yet my view on America lines up with old school libertarians and I'm closer to them in politics
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2022 02:54 PM by WKUYG.)
06-21-2022 02:52 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:30 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:21 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Libertarianism has no real answer to how corporations (especially Big Tech) threaten free speech.

Sure they do. Big Tech doesn't own the internet/airwaves so they can censor as they see fit, and people can take their business/speech elsewhere.

Of course they crush any kind of serious competition. And an increasing number of people get news from the internet and if they're censoring stories like the Hunter Biden laptop and deplatforming political speech with no real consistent rules other than bans on vaguely-defined "hate speech", that's a big problem.

How exactly would you crush 'free' internet? I'm not trying to be belligerent... I just think you're off base here (or I'm not understanding you).

Apple can't stop me from accessing CNN or Fox or any other website and if they do, Samsung (or NewCo) will allow me to access it.

To the extent that big tech could do as you suggest, they can clearly do that already... so we're not worse off... and we're better off under libertarian because CNN doesn't have preferential access to policy makers.
06-21-2022 02:59 PM
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Post: #12
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:47 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:30 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:21 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Libertarianism has no real answer to how corporations (especially Big Tech) threaten free speech.

Sure they do. Big Tech doesn't own the internet/airwaves so they can censor as they see fit, and people can take their business/speech elsewhere.

Of course they crush any kind of serious competition. And an increasing number of people get news from the internet and if they're censoring stories like the Hunter Biden laptop and deplatforming political speech with no real consistent rules other than bans on vaguely-defined "hate speech", that's a big problem.

But the libertarian would say so what? Government should punish a business for being so successful they can crush their competition? Modern Libertarianism and Capitalism is a recipe for disaster
06-21-2022 03:09 PM
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WKUYG Away
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.

Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2022 03:30 PM by WKUYG.)
06-21-2022 03:15 PM
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Post: #14
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:52 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I can't watch the video, but I find today's libertarians have little in common with the original libertarians. The original libertarians are big on individual liberty, but still leave plenty of room for government. Modern libertarians are really more like anarchists.. taking individual liberty but ignoring the submission to the collective that goes along with ANY government.

Libertarians, including modern libertarians don't give a damn about your lifestyle or gender identity or 90% of what our government focuses on today... they only really care about production, either their own or those with whom they engage in trade with. This makes them liberal, just for different reasons.

In my opinion this 100% nails it.

While I agree with the libertarians ways this country was built on. I cant stand todays (last 30 years) libertarians, democrats or republicans.

Its why I dont vote on party but on which issues are most important to me. In the end I know that person will let me down. I can only think of one that hasnt on issues they ran on. I will never vote for a libertarian because its a waste, along with just another vote for a hypocrite. Yet my view on America lines up with old school libertarians and I'm closer to them in politics


This.

Anarchy does not protect individual liberties. Anarchy leads to the rule of the strong. Anarchy allows the wealthy to erect powerful barriers to entry to anyone who threatens them or disagrees with them.

Individual liberties require property laws to keep the powerful from stealing from the powerless. It requires well-respected courts that apply the law equally to the strong and the weak.

Milton Friedman understood this. So did Adam Smith.
06-21-2022 03:36 PM
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Post: #15
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.

Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.
06-21-2022 03:39 PM
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:21 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  Libertarianism has no real answer to how corporations (especially Big Tech) threaten free speech.

Yes, it does.

Milton Friedman's answer is that the best cure is to lower barriers to entry and allow new technology to dethrone Big Tech.


In the 2nd half of the 19th Century, "Big Tech" was the Railroads. Progressives passed all sorts of ineffective laws to try to curtail the power of the railroads. They enacted regulatory bodies, which the Railroads quickly captured (see "regulatory capture"). They enacted price controls, which Railroads manipulated in their favor. They enacted anti-trust laws, which were ineffective because the railroads weren't monopolies on the national level. They passed laws to make it harder to build new Railroads, which delighted the Railroads because it reduced the threat of competition to existing Railroads.

In the end, the only thing that moderated Railroads' behavior was competition from other Railroads.

In the end, the only thing that ended the dominance of Big Railroad was a new technology: the automobile.

In the end, one of the regulatory bodies that Progressives set up to counter the Railroads ended up hurting America for over a century after Railroads had faded into obscurity. The Interstate Commerce Commission was co-opted by interstate trucking companies and was used to limit competition in that industry until the Clinton administration finally ended it.
06-21-2022 03:51 PM
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Post: #17
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.
Nailed it. There isn't a social issue that only effects one individual.

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06-21-2022 04:02 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #18
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
(06-21-2022 03:39 PM)bobdizole Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 03:15 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  
(06-21-2022 02:37 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  I think Ben Shapiro explained the lure and reality of Libertarianism in his chat with Jordan Peterson.

He said, not verbatim, when he was single with no family he considered himself a Libertarian -- live and let live. What you do doesn't impact me.

But once he was married and had children he realized social mores do in fact impact us all because "we all swim in the same pool."

Yes, the decision to accept sexual perversion as socially acceptable did eventually have a negative impact on society. And the negative impact is only increasing.


Those stick-in-the-mud old folks back in the 60s were right after all.

Or as a parent (what we did) you can use those things as a teaching tool and explain your values to your children. That is YOUR JOB as a parent and not the responsibility of those that choose to live a different life.

As a parent if you think you can hide your children from things that you dont like or believe in and that will make them safe. You failed at your most important job. As parents we should tech our values and hope our children choose those that we hold. But at a point in life its THEIR CHOICE...not you the parents choice.

I never tried to hide my boys from the world but I did sit down with them and explained why I thought something was wrong. As someone that grew up as a very poor child I knew this world was not this fairytale most republicans want it to be. It never was and never will be. At some point no matter how much you want to hide them from it they will enter the real America.

This. All of This. All you can do is ask you children what they are seeing and learning and how they feel about it and explain why your household holds the values it does.

I disagree. Our Founders understood individual liberty was the goal but they knew it would only be possible if the people governed their individual behavior based on Christian morality.

The quotes below are far from exhaustive.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments."

"We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism."


John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people."

"It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue."

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free."


George Washington
Commander of the Continental Army, president of the Constitutional Convention, first President of the United States, Father of Our Country
"While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support."

"[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people."

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."


Northwest Ordinance (1787)
Sec. 14.
Art. 3.
Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.


John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
"There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy."


Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"[N]either the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt."


Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
"Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers."

Note that Fisher Ames wrote the 1st Amendment. His thoughts more than anyone else provides insight into the actual intent of the Amendment.


Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."


Oliver Ellsworth
Member of the Constitutional Convention, Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court 1796-1800
"[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion."


Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
"[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that “except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service."


Richard Henry Lee
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people."


James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
"[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience."


Jedediah Morse
Pastor, Educator, Patriot, “Father of American Geography” and father of Samuel Morse (Morse Code)
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."


Pennsylvania Supreme Court
1824 Updegraph v. Commonwealth
"No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country."


Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
"f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity."


Noah Webster
[i]Founding Educator

"The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts."


James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."
(This post was last modified: 06-22-2022 08:42 AM by umbluegray.)
06-21-2022 04:54 PM
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umbluegray Offline
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Post: #19
RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
And for those who think our Founders were Deists or secular rather than Christian, I can post another long list of quotes here showing their true beliefs.

Heck, here's a couple of mentions from Congress in the 1850s that shows Christianity was prevalent and revered still.


Congress, 1854
The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Congress, U. S. House Judiciary Committee, 1854
Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle… In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.
06-21-2022 05:07 PM
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RE: You can't take the Libertarian Party seriously...
Like it or not, America was founded on Christianity and has been considered a Christian Nation.

The opinion written by Supreme Court Justice David Brewer for Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States (1892) sums up a historical account of this truth.


But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus, prior to his sail westward, is from "Ferdinand and Isabella, by the grace of God, King and Queen of Castile," etc., and recites that "it is hoped that by God's assistance some of the continents and islands in the

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ocean will be discovered," etc. The first colonial grant, that made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584, was from "Elizabeth, by the grace of God, of England, Fraunce and Ireland, Queene, defender of the faith," etc., and the grant authorizing him to enact statutes of the government of the proposed colony provided that "they be not against the true Christian faith nowe professed in the Church of England." The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606, after reciting the application of certain parties for a charter, commenced the grant in these words:

"We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet government; DO, by these our Letters-Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well intended Desires."

Language of similar import may be found in the subsequent charters of that colony, from the same king, in 1609 and 1611, and the same is true of the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be one of the purposes of the grant. The celebrated compact made by the pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites:

"Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid."

The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-39, commence with this declaration:

"Forasmuch as it hath pleased the Allmighty God by the wise disposition of his diuyne pruidence

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so to Order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford, and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and vppon the River of Conectecotte and the Lands thereunto adioyneing; And well knowing where a people are gathered togather the word of God requires that to mayntayne the peace and vnion of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Gouerment established according to God, to order and dispose of the affayres of the people at all seasons as occation shall require; doe therefore assotiate and conioyne our selues to be as one Publike state or Comonwelth, and doe, for our selues and our Successors and such as shall be adioyned to vs att any tyme hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation togather, to mayntayne and presearue the liberty and purity of the gospell of our Lord Jesus weh we now prfesse, as also the disciplyne of the Churches, weh according to the truth of the said gospell is now practiced amongst vs."

In the charter of privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited:

"Because no People can be truly happy, though under the greatest Enjoyment of Civil Liberties, if abridged of the Freedom of their Consciences, as to their Religious Profession and Worship; And Almighty God being the only Lord of Conscience, Father of Lights and Spirits, and the Author as well as Object of all divine Knowledge, Faith, and Worship, who only doth enlighten the Minds, and persuade and convince the Understandings of People, I do hereby grant and declare,"

etc.

Coming nearer to the present time, the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that thet are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. . . . We therefore the Representatives of the united states of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare,"

etc.;

"And for the

Page 143 U. S. 468

support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."

If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every Constitution of every one of the forty-four states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the wellbeing of the community. This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the Constitution of Illinois, 1870:

"We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations,"

etc.

It may be only in the familiar requisition that all officers shall take an oath closing with the declaration, "so help me God." It may be in clauses like that of the Constitution of Indiana, 1816, Art. XI, section 4: "The manner of administering an oath or affirmation shall be such as is most consistent with the conscience of the deponent, and shall be esteemed the most solemn appeal to God." Or in provisions such as are found in Articles 36 and 37 of the declaration of rights of the Constitution of Maryland, 1867:

"That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty, wherefore no person ought, by any law, to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace, or safety of the state, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any place of worship or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness or juror on account of his religious belief, provided he

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believes in the existence of God, and that, under his dispensation, such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefor, either in this world or the world to come. That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this state, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this constitution."

Or like that in Articles 2 and 3 of part 1st of the Constitution of Massachusetts, 1780:

"It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. . . . As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of public instructions in piety, religion, and morality, therefore, to promote their happiness, and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic or religious societies to make suitable provision at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily."

Or, as in sections 5 and 14 of Article 7 of the Constitution of Mississippi, 1832:

"No person who denies the being of a God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state. . . . Religion morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government, the preservation of liberty, and the happiness of mankind, schools, and the means of education, shall forever be encouraged in this state."

Or by Article 22 of the Constitution of Delaware, (1776), which required all officers, besides an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe the following declaration:

"I, A. B., do profess

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faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore, and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."

Even the Constitution of the United States, which is supposed to have little touch upon the private life of the individual, contains in the First Amendment a declaration common to the constitutions of all the states, as follows: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," etc., and also provides in Article I, Section 7, a provision common to many constitutions, that the executive shall have ten days (Sundays excepted) within which to determine whether he will approve or veto a bill.

There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people. While, because of a general recognition of this truth, the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. Commonwealth, 11 S. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that

"Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania; . . . not Christianity with an established church and tithes and spiritual courts, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men."

And in People v. Ruggles, 8 Johns. 290, 294-295, Chancellor Kent, the great commentator on American law, speaking as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New York, said:

"The people of this state, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity as the rule of their faith and practice, and to scandalize the author of these doctrines is not only, in a religious point of view, extremely impious, but, even in respect to the obligations due to society, is a gross violation of decency and good order. . . . The free, equal, and undisturbed enjoyment of religious opinion, whatever it may be, and free and decent discussions on any religious

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subject, is granted and secured; but to revile, with malicious and blasphemous contempt, the religion professed by almost the whole community is an abuse of that right. Nor are we bound by any expressions in the Constitution, as some have strangely supposed, either not to punish at all, or to punish indiscriminately the like attacks upon the religion of Mahomet or of the Grand Lama, and for this plain reason, that the case assumes that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors."

And in the famous case of Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 2 How. 127, 43 U. S. 198, this Court, while sustaining the will of Mr. Girard, with its provision for the creation of a college into which no minister should be permitted to enter, observed: "It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania."

If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters, note the following: the form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing every where under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. In the face of all these, shall it be believed that a Congress of the United States intended to make it a misdemeanor for a church of this country to contract for the services of a Christian minister residing in another nation?

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Suppose, in the Congress that passed this act, some member had offered a bill which in terms declared that if any Roman Catholic church in this country should contract with Cardinal Manning to come to this country and enter into its service as pastor and priest, or any Episcopal church should enter into a like contract with Canon Farrar, or any Baptist church should make similar arrangements with Rev. Mr. Spurgeon, or any Jewish synagogue with some eminent rabbi, such contract should be adjudged unlawful and void, and the church making it be subject to prosecution and punishment. Can it be believed that it would have received a minute of approving thought or a single vote? Yet it is contended that such was, in effect, the meaning of this statute. The construction invoked cannot be accepted as correct. It is a case where there was presented a definite evil, in view of which the legislature used general terms with the purpose of reaching all phases of that evil, and thereafter, unexpectedly, it is developed that the general language thus employed is broad enough to reach cases and acts which the whole history and life of the country affirm could not have been intentionally legislated against. It is the duty of the courts under those circumstances to say that, however broad the language of the statute may be, the act, although within the letter, is not within the intention of the legislature, and therefore cannot be within the statute.
06-21-2022 05:12 PM
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