(05-18-2022 05:46 PM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure Pitt was the runner-up to Michigan State when they were added. Nebraska flirted interest in the Big Ten over the years as well.

Pitt adopted Big 10 purity standards (a disastrous measure to which few others actually adhered) and substantially increased scheduling against the Big 10 through the 40s (playing up to six schools in a single season), and was the front runner to replace Chicago but apparently was blackballed by Ohio State over concerns of recruiting overlap when it came time to the official vote. Michigan apparently did not have the same power over the situation regarding MSU. Hence MSU got the slot in a result that shocked Pitt.

Other than that period, Pitt has primarily been eastern focused.

(05-18-2022 10:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

This is absolutely true. The Big Ten, especially Michigan, wasn't taking Catholic Notre Dame in those days.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

I heard the U Michigan was super anti Catholic back in the day. Was that 1 President or some sort of a wide spread cultural thing....and why?

(05-20-2022 06:53 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 05:46 PM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure Pitt was the runner-up to Michigan State when they were added. Nebraska flirted interest in the Big Ten over the years as well.

Pitt adopted Big 10 purity standards (a disastrous measure to which few others actually adhered) and substantially increased scheduling against the Big 10 through the 40s (playing up to six schools in a single season), and was the front runner to replace Chicago but apparently was blackballed by Ohio State over concerns of recruiting overlap when it came time to the official vote. Michigan apparently did not have the same power over the situation regarding MSU. Hence MSU got the slot in a result that shocked Pitt.

Other than that period, Pitt has primarily been eastern focused.

I totally get Pitt having trouble getting into the Big 10 today, sandwiched between powerful Ohio St and Penn St but back then I don’t think Pitt would have been much of a threat to the Buckeyes.

I’m also surprised that Ohio St would have had black balling power but Michigan didn’t. Maybe Ohio St feigned scruples over Pitt to shift the vote to Sparty in hopes that elevating another Michigan school would harm Wolverine recruiting. There were probably enough other Big 10 schools looking to take Michigan down a peg to make the vote work.

2 open slots completely changes the politics of that vote and I imagine Michigan says that if they are getting a new member in their backyard, then Ohio St should have to deal with one too.

(05-20-2022 07:48 AM)Kyle Mack Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 10:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

I heard the U Michigan was super anti Catholic back in the day. Was that 1 President or some sort of a wide spread cultural thing....and why?

It was widespread and cultural. Michigan under Fielding Yost and Fritz Crisler was very anti-Catholic.

Michigan blocked ND's application to join the then Western Conference and then organized a boycott against ND football.


The KKK in the North was more an anti-Catholic thing than anti-black in the 1920's.

My maternal grandfather had a cross burned in his yard for being a Catholic Pit Boss in a Southwestern Pennsylvania coal mine.

ND students physically fought against the KKK in South Bend:

https://group.irishecho.com/2011/02/78-y...the-kkk-3/

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/5037...-klux-klan


ND is a football independent and its fans anti-Big Ten for historical reasons.

History matters. You can thank Michigan's anti-Catholic bigotry for that:


"But in 1909, Notre Dame claimed an 11-3 victory, earning the first of its 16 wins in the series. The two teams, however, would not meet again until 1942.

Kryk said that, for Michigan, there was no glory in playing Notre Dame at that point. Michigan and its conference partners essentially decided to “blow Notre Dame off the course” by not playing them, Kryk said.

Stuck in northern Indiana and craving football, Notre Dame had to venture outside the Midwest to fill its schedule.

“That’s why Notre Dame became the national school because they had to go outside the Midwest in the teens and then in the early 20s of [former Irish coach Knute] Rockne to find anyone worth playing,” Kryk said. “And it was because Michigan and their Big Ten partners were snubbing them.”

Notre Dame rose to national prominence in the 1920s under Rockne — without Michigan and its conference cohorts. But the Irish still made one last-gasp effort at joining its regional counterparts, making an unsuccessful last push in 1926, according to Kryk.

“That’s when Notre Dame went, ‘Alright then, we’re going to be an independent. We’re going to embrace it,’” Kryk said."

https://ndsmcobserver.com/2014/09/histor...-michigan/

(05-18-2022 12:17 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 12:11 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 11:57 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It’s hard to believe that there was once a time when schools like Ohio Wesleyan, Case, Oberlin, Kenyon, and Western Reserve would beat Ohio St.

Yeah but that was the 19th century-1930s. It was a different football world. OSU had not elevated itself yet, and those schools had de-emphasized playing football at the highest level. Case was at one time a strong program. Had they had the foresight or desire, being in the Cleveland metro area, they could easily be on par with someone like Duke, Northwestern, Vandy, etc athletically.

I wonder if the Big Ten conference fathers ever gave any thought to a 2nd Ohio school.

A Case or even a Cincinnati would have been interesting. something tells me that Case would make the same decision that Chicago did. I wonder why Northwestern never did.

Let’s say the both Chicago schools did drop out in the 40s. Who comes in along with Mich St? Pitt?

Unlikely since in the early 1900s the Ohio legislature passed a law that prohibited any public universities besides OSU from conducting doctoral education and research functions, which wasn't repealed until the 50s. Had that not passed there's a chance Miami or Ohio U (both which are much older institutions than OSU) may have grown enough to have been considered. I believe UC was still private at the time.

Given how many elite northern colleges wound up in DIII after a brief flirtation with DI at some point (Chicago, WashU, Case Western, Carnegie Mellon, NYU) a school like Northwestern is an anomaly. It's not that bizarre to imagine a universe where those schools and a few other highly ranked northern colleges (Rose Hulman, Rochester, Johns Hopkins) formed a Rust Belt version of the Ivy League and ended up a DI non-scholarship conference.

(05-20-2022 12:31 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-20-2022 07:48 AM)Kyle Mack Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 10:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

I heard the U Michigan was super anti Catholic back in the day. Was that 1 President or some sort of a wide spread cultural thing....and why?

It was widespread and cultural. Michigan under Fielding Yost and Fritz Crisler was very anti-Catholic.

Michigan blocked ND's application to join the then Western Conference and then organized a boycott against ND football.


The KKK in the North was more an anti-Catholic thing than anti-black in the 1920's.

My maternal grandfather had a cross burned in his yard for being a Catholic Pit Boss in a Southwestern Pennsylvania coal mine.

ND students physically fought against the KKK in South Bend:

https://group.irishecho.com/2011/02/78-y...the-kkk-3/

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/5037...-klux-klan


ND is a football independent and its fans anti-Big Ten for historical reasons.

History matters. You can thank Michigan's anti-Catholic bigotry for that:


"But in 1909, Notre Dame claimed an 11-3 victory, earning the first of its 16 wins in the series. The two teams, however, would not meet again until 1942.

Kryk said that, for Michigan, there was no glory in playing Notre Dame at that point. Michigan and its conference partners essentially decided to “blow Notre Dame off the course” by not playing them, Kryk said.

Stuck in northern Indiana and craving football, Notre Dame had to venture outside the Midwest to fill its schedule.

“That’s why Notre Dame became the national school because they had to go outside the Midwest in the teens and then in the early 20s of [former Irish coach Knute] Rockne to find anyone worth playing,” Kryk said. “And it was because Michigan and their Big Ten partners were snubbing them.”

Notre Dame rose to national prominence in the 1920s under Rockne — without Michigan and its conference cohorts. But the Irish still made one last-gasp effort at joining its regional counterparts, making an unsuccessful last push in 1926, according to Kryk.

“That’s when Notre Dame went, ‘Alright then, we’re going to be an independent. We’re going to embrace it,’” Kryk said."

https://ndsmcobserver.com/2014/09/histor...-michigan/

It wasn't just at U of Michigan. It was a widely held sentiment throughout the USA.

Herbert Hoover won the 1928 presidential election largely as a result of anti-Catholic bigotry against Democrat Al Smith. In the 1960 election, JFK had to publicly declare that he would not be subservient to the Pope.

Obviously not everyone was anti-Catholic, but being anti-Catholic was a socially acceptable perspective among the rich and powerful classes of society.

People today forget the huge change that was brought about by JFK's election.

(05-20-2022 07:51 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(05-20-2022 06:53 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 05:46 PM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure Pitt was the runner-up to Michigan State when they were added. Nebraska flirted interest in the Big Ten over the years as well.

Pitt adopted Big 10 purity standards (a disastrous measure to which few others actually adhered) and substantially increased scheduling against the Big 10 through the 40s (playing up to six schools in a single season), and was the front runner to replace Chicago but apparently was blackballed by Ohio State over concerns of recruiting overlap when it came time to the official vote. Michigan apparently did not have the same power over the situation regarding MSU. Hence MSU got the slot in a result that shocked Pitt.

Other than that period, Pitt has primarily been eastern focused.

I totally get Pitt having trouble getting into the Big 10 today, sandwiched between powerful Ohio St and Penn St but back then I don’t think Pitt would have been much of a threat to the Buckeyes.

I’m also surprised that Ohio St would have had black balling power but Michigan didn’t. Maybe Ohio St feigned scruples over Pitt to shift the vote to Sparty in hopes that elevating another Michigan school would harm Wolverine recruiting. There were probably enough other Big 10 schools looking to take Michigan down a peg to make the vote work.

2 open slots completely changes the politics of that vote and I imagine Michigan says that if they are getting a new member in their backyard, then Ohio St should have to deal with one too.

Yeah, you should look at what Pitt did between the 1910s and 30s. Was more than a threat. Pitt was an Alabama type of program. OSU wanted to recruit Western PA, which was more like recruiting Florida today, and they didn't want to lose their niche of being the closest Western Conference member.

I'm not sure Michigan wanted MSU either, but OSU won that one.

My grandfather (a yellow dog Democrat) said the only time he voted for a Republican was once he voted for Nixon, but didn’t say what year. I suspect it was 1960 since he didn’t like Catholics. He didn’t like blacks either, but had dementia in 2008 and died in 2009 just before Obama took office.

Attitudes toward Catholics have definitely changed. Unless you are just a trivia dork, you probably didn’t know (or care) that Biden is Catholic.

These days Protestants need Catholics' help

(05-20-2022 12:31 PM)TerryD Wrote:  

(05-20-2022 07:48 AM)Kyle Mack Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 10:04 PM)johnintx Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 09:38 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(05-18-2022 08:40 PM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  Don't if the anti-Catholic bigotry had subsided enough by that point for ND to be invited.

Fritz Crisler would have had something say about it, too.

If Northwestern leaves with U of Chicago, the Big Ten (Western Conference) stays at 8. That is, until the Michigan legislature gets involved and forces UM to allow Michigan State into the conference. (not sure if the Michigan legislature would have made such a move)

Another alternate scenario: If Northwestern leaves, and the Big Ten adds MSU and Pitt as members 9 and 10, does Pitt block Penn State from the Big Ten?

I heard the U Michigan was super anti Catholic back in the day. Was that 1 President or some sort of a wide spread cultural thing....and why?

It was widespread and cultural. Michigan under Fielding Yost and Fritz Crisler was very anti-Catholic.

Michigan blocked ND's application to join the then Western Conference and then organized a boycott against ND football.


The KKK in the North was more an anti-Catholic thing than anti-black in the 1920's.

My maternal grandfather had a cross burned in his yard for being a Catholic Pit Boss in a Southwestern Pennsylvania coal mine.

ND students physically fought against the KKK in South Bend:

https://group.irishecho.com/2011/02/78-y...the-kkk-3/

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/5037...-klux-klan


ND is a football independent and its fans anti-Big Ten for historical reasons.

History matters. You can thank Michigan's anti-Catholic bigotry for that:


"But in 1909, Notre Dame claimed an 11-3 victory, earning the first of its 16 wins in the series. The two teams, however, would not meet again until 1942.

Kryk said that, for Michigan, there was no glory in playing Notre Dame at that point. Michigan and its conference partners essentially decided to “blow Notre Dame off the course” by not playing them, Kryk said.

Stuck in northern Indiana and craving football, Notre Dame had to venture outside the Midwest to fill its schedule.

“That’s why Notre Dame became the national school because they had to go outside the Midwest in the teens and then in the early 20s of [former Irish coach Knute] Rockne to find anyone worth playing,” Kryk said. “And it was because Michigan and their Big Ten partners were snubbing them.”

Notre Dame rose to national prominence in the 1920s under Rockne — without Michigan and its conference cohorts. But the Irish still made one last-gasp effort at joining its regional counterparts, making an unsuccessful last push in 1926, according to Kryk.

“That’s when Notre Dame went, ‘Alright then, we’re going to be an independent. We’re going to embrace it,’” Kryk said."

https://ndsmcobserver.com/2014/09/histor...-michigan/

Wow. I didn't anticipate how strong that sentiment was in the midwest at that time. I know Irish Catholics on the E. Coast were regarded as sub humans, and the protestant catholic rift was still strong across the country.