What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

(12-16-2021 04:16 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:11 PM)CarRamrod Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 03:46 PM)jmufan2008 Wrote:  Yeah, Alger first announced the intention in Feb 2020 at the BOV meeting. I think it was maybe supposed to happen last year or this summer, but the timeline got shifted slightly. Either way, this will be huge for attracting students...or at the very least not making prospective students think twice about coming here. Like has been said, floating around the top public university in the southern region is much different than being the top 150 of national universities (no idea where we'll debut, but would imagine it will be a solid spot in the top 200, maybe 150, but I'd be surprised). Just a different class of universities and finally being judged with our real peers. May not be an exact comparison, but it actually matches up pretty closely with being in the top few of FCS to moving to being a mid-tier Sunbelt team in FBS. Better funding opportunities, much better marketing opportunities, associating with schools of our size and quality, etc.

With Elon just moving up into the national university category and debuting at #83, I would hope we wouldn't be too different than that since US News saw us as fairly comparable when we were both regional universities. Having said all of that, I was pretty shocked to see Elon as high as 83.

I think we'll be in the 120-150 range. Years ago we were only behind Richmond and went to #1 when they moved up. Since our growth caused our ranking to fall over recent years, we may in the George Mason range (whom we used to be well ahead of but now not so sure). Forbes is a more favorable ranking to JMU cause it factors in the practical measures of level of education and graduates success metrics, vs SATs and class rankings. School like Northeastern have totally gamed the system.

UNCW moved up the prior round and they're at 187. I think they were at least a handful of slots below us in regional. GMU is at 148, we gotta be higher than that I'd think.

(12-16-2021 04:23 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

Research expenditures drive the bus. Most universities keep 50-65% of all grant dollars awarded to faculty.

In 2019:
UVA: $613 million
VT: $541 mil
JMU: $8.7 mil
ODU (now moved to R1): 74 mil

Universities with strong engineering and medical programs can really skew these numbers as their grant amounts are normally several orders of magnitude larger than the bulk of other disciplines.

I think 125, give or take 15, is where I think we could be...I would just be surprised on the first ranking to see us there. I think ultimately we could work our way to the top 100, it's just tough as a public university, especially as the spot where the commonwealth wants to stick the most growth. However, I think between the R2 classification and the Sunbelt move, we could see our spot in the world move up a good bit. Plus with the Business school taking several steps forward, it doesn't hurt in rankings for things like US News. It's hard to move up too much without being a nationally ranked university, so this will help us move up the ranks over the next decade.

And I always take our rankings vs. the privates with a grain of salt. We may be near Elon in the regional rankings, but they have crazy money and a law school, so in the region we could be a couple behind, but we could be 30-40 behind nationally.

Unfortunately, it looks like they release the new rankings in September, so it'll be awhile, at least for US News, to see where we land.

Does this mean JMU will finally get off that regional university list on US News rankings?

YES

(12-16-2021 04:38 PM)CarRamrod Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:23 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

Research expenditures drive the bus. Most universities keep 50-65% of all grant dollars awarded to faculty.

In 2019:
UVA: $613 million
VT: $541 mil
JMU: $8.7 mil
ODU (now moved to R1): 74 mil

Universities with strong engineering and medical programs can really skew these numbers as their grant amounts are normally several orders of magnitude larger than the bulk of other disciplines.

Should the "$8.7 million" for JMU be "$87 million?"

(12-17-2021 07:06 AM)NC Tribe Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:38 PM)CarRamrod Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:23 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

Research expenditures drive the bus. Most universities keep 50-65% of all grant dollars awarded to faculty.

In 2019:
UVA: $613 million
VT: $541 mil
JMU: $8.7 mil
ODU (now moved to R1): 74 mil

Universities with strong engineering and medical programs can really skew these numbers as their grant amounts are normally several orders of magnitude larger than the bulk of other disciplines.

Should the "$8.7 million" for JMU be "$87 million?"

No, data for all schools here: https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?...ce&ds=herd

(12-17-2021 07:06 AM)NC Tribe Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:38 PM)CarRamrod Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:23 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

Research expenditures drive the bus. Most universities keep 50-65% of all grant dollars awarded to faculty.

In 2019:
UVA: $613 million
VT: $541 mil
JMU: $8.7 mil
ODU (now moved to R1): 74 mil

Universities with strong engineering and medical programs can really skew these numbers as their grant amounts are normally several orders of magnitude larger than the bulk of other disciplines.

Should the "$8.7 million" for JMU be "$87 million?"

Not without a medical or pharmacy school, and a much larger commitment to graduate programs. Give it time.

(12-17-2021 11:27 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(12-17-2021 07:06 AM)NC Tribe Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:38 PM)CarRamrod Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:23 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

Research expenditures drive the bus. Most universities keep 50-65% of all grant dollars awarded to faculty.

In 2019:
UVA: $613 million
VT: $541 mil
JMU: $8.7 mil
ODU (now moved to R1): 74 mil

Universities with strong engineering and medical programs can really skew these numbers as their grant amounts are normally several orders of magnitude larger than the bulk of other disciplines.

Should the "$8.7 million" for JMU be "$87 million?"

Not without a medical or pharmacy school, and a much larger commitment to graduate programs. Give it time.

That's an interesting thread to pull on ........ years ago (ok, decades) I recall that when ISAT was being designed, there was a VA rule that said that the major public universities could no longer create new programs that competed with other schools. So, JMU cannot build a medical college, law school etc.

ISAT had to get creative to not exactly be "engineering"...we don't do a phd in IO Psych (my field) but we do a phd in "Assessment and Measurement"...country cousins really. I'm curious if anyone knows the details on this rule, if it still exists, and how creative we need to get for the big money grad programs (and those future big money donors)

(12-17-2021 12:19 PM)bcp_jmu Wrote:  

(12-17-2021 11:27 AM)Longhorn Wrote:  

(12-17-2021 07:06 AM)NC Tribe Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:38 PM)CarRamrod Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:23 PM)2Buck Wrote:  

Research expenditures drive the bus. Most universities keep 50-65% of all grant dollars awarded to faculty.

In 2019:
UVA: $613 million
VT: $541 mil
JMU: $8.7 mil
ODU (now moved to R1): 74 mil

Universities with strong engineering and medical programs can really skew these numbers as their grant amounts are normally several orders of magnitude larger than the bulk of other disciplines.

Should the "$8.7 million" for JMU be "$87 million?"

Not without a medical or pharmacy school, and a much larger commitment to graduate programs. Give it time.

That's an interesting thread to pull on ........ years ago (ok, decades) I recall that when ISAT was being designed, there was a VA rule that said that the major public universities could no longer create new programs that competed with other schools. So, JMU cannot build a medical college, law school etc.

ISAT had to get creative to not exactly be "engineering"...we don't do a phd in IO Psych (my field) but we do a phd in "Assessment and Measurement"...country cousins really. I'm curious if anyone knows the details on this rule, if it still exists, and how creative we need to get for the big money grad programs (and those future big money donors)

I don't recall ever hearing of that rule, but think it must not exist now as JMU added Engineering a couple of years ago.

Right...but it's a generic Engineering degree - not mechanical, structural, electrical etc.

(12-17-2021 12:51 PM)bcp_jmu Wrote:  Right...but it's a generic Engineering degree - not mechanical, structural, electrical etc.

The curriculum of JMU’s engineering program was created to be unique and serve a different need (other than other existing programs in VA), but it was not created to circumvent approval by SHEV.

Your original post was correct (for the time when ISAT was originally being proposed), but today those restrictions are not a firm or hard yes or no regarding new programs. Any new program or substantial change in the direction of an existing one would have to justify its creation, but it’s possible that new programs can be created.

Ah very good.... so if JMU wanted they could have a law or med school.. and Id guess they will specialize them in some way like many other grad programs (pharmacy mentioned above, maybe PA, FNP, etc too)

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

ASK NDSU. they are R1

^ this is not gonna end well for you... go team.

(12-17-2021 03:40 PM)bcp_jmu Wrote:  Ah very good.... so if JMU wanted they could have a law or med school.. and Id guess they will specialize them in some way like many other grad programs (pharmacy mentioned above, maybe PA, FNP, etc too)

Exactly right.

I’ve long proposed that a JMU Med school should specialize in family medicine/family practitioners. My model would (with a Gates like underwriter/founding gift) offer free tuition in exchange for 3-4 years of post grad service in a system of clinics established in rural or underserved communities across the U.S. Fees for medical care in these clinics staffed by JMU docs (and possibly nurses) would be limited to Medicare or Medicaid reimbursements. A PhD Pharmacy program could also be tied into a post grad service element. But it takes money, and a lot of it, to start programs like these, but that is also where the opportunities exist for generating large, external research grants. JMU could develop off-campus facilities for these programs by working with the existing Sentara, Merck and a pharma research company already located in Rockingham County.

The notion of offering free medical degrees is copied from a new med school started at a Florida school, where a wealthy donor made that possible. The thought of getting a free MD instantly attracted top candidates and gave the school academic cred. But that med school wasn’t focused (as I’m suggesting) on family medicine, or post-grad service at an established chain of clinics in rural/underserved areas of the U.S.

I don’t have anything against establishing a JMU law school, but research monies are not part of their makeup…it’s their potential of seeing a law graduate doing well later in life and being generous in their gifts. The circumstances are similar to COB grads in that regard. If JMU did open a law school it’s a no brainer it should become known for its focus on constitutional and government law.

(12-17-2021 03:54 PM)lakesbison Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

ASK NDSU. they are R1

Oh my.

Well, there it is. There’s R1 and then there’s that school in Fargo.

(12-17-2021 03:54 PM)lakesbison Wrote:  

(12-16-2021 04:17 PM)All Dukes_All Day Wrote:  What's the difference between R2 and R1 exactly?

ASK NDSU. they are R1

The only person I know who went to NDSU owns a diner...don't think he's up to date on the classifications of higher ED.