(11-19-2021 12:14 PM)BeatWestern! Wrote:  

(11-19-2021 11:54 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-19-2021 11:19 AM)BeatWestern! Wrote:  

(11-18-2021 02:09 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Missouri State has zero chance at the MAC. They are far out of footprint, every school would have to fly to them, no bus trips. And for what? They are in a small city far from any metro. Zero value. Missouri State's "destination conference" is likely the SBC and everyone knows that. So why bother? It's not like they are a big FCS brand like JMU or NDSU, and not even a Sam Houston State with recent success and Texas locale.

As for the MVC, the thing to remember about them is that they literally are centered around Arch Madness in St. Louis. Every school is a 2½ to 5½ hour drive from the Enterprise Center. The league looks like a wagon wheel with spokes going out in every direction from there, every school within 350 miles.

That wagon wheel explain UMKC being included on the expansion list. There is one spoke missing in the wheel, and that is I70 west to Kansas City (Wichita State used to be that spoke).

As for the recruiting angle, I don't think the MVC in any configuration with 2nd/3rd tier programs in major cities will do anything. Sure it's nice to have a Nashville school and one in DFW, plus everything you can get in Chicago. But extremely few students choose a campus based on athletics below the P5 level. The configuration of the MVC has not reversed or even slowed the declines in enrollment for schools like Bradley, Evansville or SIU-C. It hasn't had an impact on schools in the MAC either. It's chasing windmills.

If anything recent trends have exacerbated the differences between the private and public schools of the MVC. Frankly the MVC needs to figure out it's identity going forward. They look increasingly like CUSA before the AAC and SBC raids.

The history of MAC expansions says otherwise. The MAC offered full membership to former football affiliate UCF (2005) before the Knights chose to join C-USA, also UMass, MTSU and WKU. None of these schools are a bus ride away from most or all of current MAC member institutions.

This is not a valid comparison. UCF was a FB-only affiliate. UMass is a flagship whose invitation was designed to gain a foothold in the Northeast - whereas, Missouri St isn't bringing any sort of market. WKU is magnitudes closer to MAC schools than Missouri St, and MTSU's invitation was designed to gain a foothold into Nashville.

Quote:Springfield, MO with a population of approximately 170,000 is very similar in size to Lansing, MI.

This works against Missouri St -- not for.

Quote:The airport in Springfield is serviced by American, United, Delta and Southwest. Both American and United offer direct flights between Springfield and Chicago (O'Hare), which provides connecting flights to all cities near current MAC members.

This also works against Missouri St. A bus league doesn't want to take 4 flights to get to-and-back-from a smaller market.

Quote:As previously noted, as a member of the MVC, Missouri State is competing in a conference that includes seven members total in Illinois and Indiana.

And 2 of the MAC's 12 members are located in these states. Two. The other 10 are 8.5-15 hours away.

Yes, I'm aware that UCF was a football affiliate of the MAC (2003-05), as I indicated. The MAC offered UCF full membership in an attempt to keep the Knights in the conference, but they chose to move to C-USA for all sports instead.

Last time I checked, being able to better recruit in Florida is important to folks, since the recruiting base is much larger. Also,, there are plenty more eyeballs along the I-4 corridor compared to SWMO, and Disney is a bigger draw than Branson.

(11-19-2021 12:43 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  MAC and Sun Belt have ESPN contracts that required them to upgrade their TV-production facilities.. That makes a February MAC basketball game more attractive for ESPN-U than an Illinois STate-Northern Iowa game.

This isn't true.

Take the number of league games on ESPN/2 last season:
MVC - 8
MAC - 2

ESPN picks up MVC games because they have a better track record. Northern Iowa hosted College Gameday 5-6 years ago as the #9 team in the country.

Quote:FBS conferences sign TV deals for football, and basketball games get almost thrown in.

See above. MVC basketball gets ~3x the exposure of the MAC.

Quote:And, realignment continues to take its toll. Looking at the 2021 NCAA tournament, you had 5 at-large bids from outside the P5+Big East. That's 10 bids, and among those 10 schools, 3 of them are moving up the food chain (BYU and Houston to Big 12, Loyola to A-10).

And who was one of the other at-larges? Belmont (moving up to MVC).

And Loyola was never an at-large. Drake was.

Quote:I don't expect the MAC or Sun Belt or CUSA to leapfrog the A-10. But the MAC could easily be stronger than the Valley over the next 10 years

There's little evidence suggesting this. Take the 10-year KenPom averages, MBB budgets, attendance, history of NCAA Tournament success, etc. and the MVC is clearly better.

The average MVC MBB budget (swapping Belmont for Loyola), for example, is still 23% higher than the average MAC MBB budget. The average MVC attendance is still 47% higher than the average MAC attendance.

(11-19-2021 12:43 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-19-2021 11:41 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(11-19-2021 11:03 AM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  

(11-19-2021 10:58 AM)MKPitt Wrote:  

(11-19-2021 08:12 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I don't like the UT-Arlington add, too far away. And 13 members isn't practical. Stopping at Murray State would be nice, keep a double round robin 20 game season. Maybe UMKC for 12 although UIC wouldn't be a bad add either if they wanted to stay in Chicago.

CBS needs to dump the MVC Championship Game.

Why? The Missouri Valley is still consistently one of the best conferences outside the power 6. Only the A-10, American, Mountain West and WCC have an argument of being better.

And the MAC over the last 10 years according to the computer conference rankings. I suspect over time and with more realignment, all FBS conferences will consistently be ahead of all non-FBS conferences sans the Big East due to more resources and better TV exposure.

This is one of the most delusional posts this site has ever had.

It's really not. It may not come to pass, but FBS conferences have advantages.

MAC and Sun Belt have ESPN contracts that required them to upgrade their TV-production facilities, and the Mountain West schools had to do the same when they had their own conference network. That makes a February MAC basketball game more attractive for ESPN-U than an Illinois STate-Northern Iowa game.

FBS conferences sign TV deals for football, and basketball games get almost thrown in. FBS schools have bigger athletic budgets in general--money spent on FBS programs tends to spill over. If the football team gets a new weight room, the athletic program has a new weight room.

And, realignment continues to take its toll. Looking at the 2021 NCAA tournament, you had 5 at-large bids from outside the P5+Big East. That's 10 bids, and among those 10 schools, 3 of them are moving up the food chain (BYU and Houston to Big 12, Loyola to A-10).

I don't expect the MAC or Sun Belt or CUSA to leapfrog the A-10. But the MAC could easily be stronger than the Valley over the next 10 years, and if any (non-P5) southern league gets more than one at-large over the next 10 years, Sun Belt and CUSA are more likely than anyone in FCS or I-AAA.

That is an overlooked advantage of FBS schools over regular mid majors the fact they can leverage weight rooms, recruiting lounges, hydro therapy pools added to support FB.

Facilities and coaching pay are the two budget items I would look at. Private schools budgets are going to be bigger with tuition costs. Travel requires a bigger budget. I wouldn't automatically say a bigger budget equals a better program.

(11-19-2021 04:27 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  That is an overlooked advantage of FBS schools over regular mid majors the fact they can leverage weight rooms, recruiting lounges, hydro therapy pools added to support FB.

Facilities and coaching pay are the two budget items I would look at. Private schools budgets are going to be bigger with tuition costs. Travel requires a bigger budget. I wouldn't automatically say a bigger budget equals a better program.

I hear that, but it's not like the schools without football just don't get weight rooms.

And a lot of the sport budget stuff is really misleading because there's no specific set practice on where to itemize anything that overlaps and services two programs.

Budget alone isn't an indicator of success. OF COURSE it's easier to be successful the more money you have. But the fact is, that "serving two masters" is really, really, really hard.

The more expensive it is to be in FBS Football, the worse the G5 basketball programs have become. The primary college athletics change from the 1990s to now is the TV money to the BCS/P5, which has made it crazy more expensive to compete in FBS. The MAC was getting at-larges in the 90s. UNLV and New Mexico were gret basketball programs in the 90s. My God, look at Temple and UMass from the 90s to now.


As long as FBS schools are spending a massive percentage of their budgets on FBS to try and keep up with the P5, they're going to be worse at keeping up with the P5 in basketball.

The basketball-first schools are only trying to keep up with basketball, which is a lot easier because the gap between the elite and the A-10/WCC is $5 million.

The A-10 and WCC can compete at a high basketball level, because a lot of the P5 basketball expense is charter flights, which the major metro area basketball-only schools simply don't have to pay for.

It's REALLY inefficient to spend your way to success in football.
It doesn't cost much to efficiently fund a good basketball program.

Invite Murray State & maybe UMKC.

Would the MVC consider taking the University of Missouri-St. Louis (UMSL)? Granted, taking a DII school might be unusual, but UMSL has wanted to upgrade to DI for a while now.

Or maybe they might have to be in the OVC for a time so they can grow into a candidate. Who knows?

It would be beneath the MVC to take UMSL. I also don't think the MVC necessarily needs a presence in Saint Louis proper - Arch Madness serves the same function as MSG does to the Big East.

At this point, it seems wisest to pick up Murray State for basketball prowess and UIC to restore their presence in Chicago. Ruins the public/private balance, but 5 private schools out of 12 is still a large enough bloc to prevent a 2/3 or 3/4 supermajority.

North: Bradley, Drake, Illinois State, Northern Iowa, UIC, Valparaiso
South: Belmont, Evansville, Indiana State, Missouri State, Murray State, Southern Illinois

(11-21-2021 01:34 PM)rtist Wrote:  Would the MVC consider taking the University of Missouri-St. Louis (UMSL). Granted, taking a DII school might be unusual, but UMSL has wanted to upgrade to DI for a while now.

Or maybe they might have to be in the OVC for a time so they can grow into a candidate. Who knows?

No chance. The MVC is a top 10/11 BB league. Taking a school straight from DII is a non-starter.

(11-21-2021 04:08 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  At this point, it seems wisest to pick up Murray State for basketball prowess and UIC to restore their presence in Chicago. Ruins the public/private balance, but 5 private schools out of 12 is still a large enough bloc to prevent a 2/3 or 3/4 supermajority.

North: Bradley, Drake, Illinois State, Northern Iowa, UIC, Valparaiso
South: Belmont, Evansville, Indiana State, Missouri State, Murray State, Southern Illinois

I think the private schools are going to give up on the public/private balance. They’ve just run out of developed private candidates.

If the Valley goes to 12, add Murray State and UIC. If they choose to go 14, add Murray State, UIC, Arlington and Kansas City. Valley fans need to face reality: the Presidents want to brand the Valley into new, expanding markets to recruit mainly regular students. Enrollments are falling in some of the Valley institutions and it's their belief that a few students from these markets (Arlington, KC) will help their finances. The addition of Belmont and Murray would negate the loss of Loyola and give the Valley two strong candidates for at-large bids every year. So, no need to worry about a drop off of the Valley status. I'm sure Arlington and Kansas City will make promises to increase budgets and do what is necessary to improve their respective programs. So whether you believe it or not or accept it or not, this is the way Realignment and student enrollment desperation has things going.

For the MVC to make a splash in a new, large market, the local MVC team has to make a splash as well. Valpo and Bradley aren’t going to suddenly get kids in KC and DFW just because the MVC has a school there. UTA and UMKC athletics have to actually do something that gets local media talking about them.

If the MVC wants to maintain their status as a quality mid major capable of getting at large berths then the number 1 thing they need to look at is the quality and budget of the men’s basketball team.

They don’t NEED to expand past 10, but if they were, Murray St is the top candidate.

(11-21-2021 04:57 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  For the MVC to make a splash in a new, large market, the local MVC team has to make a splash as well. Valpo and Bradley aren’t going to suddenly get kids in KC and DFW just because the MVC has a school there. UTA and UMKC athletics have to actually do something that gets local media talking about them.

If the MVC wants to maintain their status as a quality mid major capable of getting at large berths then the number 1 thing they need to look at is the quality and budget of the men’s basketball team.

They don’t NEED to expand past 10, but if they were, Murray St is the top candidate.

Believe it or not, when the HL expanded into Cincinnati (Highland Heights) with Northern Kentucky, not only did the Norse get Chicago recruits, but the school started getting regular Chicago students to attend. Granted, not by the thousands or even hundreds, but enough to justify the addition of the Cincy market into the Horizon. And this was while UIC was still in the doldrums of a basketball program. I don't know how many other HL schools saw an increase in Cincy area students.

Frank was first to see this with LUC leaving

notice the "UMKC still sniffing around" ... he doesn't buy that they can make the cut.

If they were expecting to go to 12 or 14 AND Loyola staying, than nothing has really changed in terms of teams 12, 13, and 14

UIC gets in to take Loyola's spot and maintain the Chicago presence. #12, #13, and #14 proceed as desired

If I were in charge, I would only add two schools: Murray State and UIC. 12 is a good number for a mid-major league. UIC would get the league back into Chicago, and Murray State is a good basketball school.

(11-21-2021 01:34 PM)rtist Wrote:  Would the MVC consider taking the University of Missouri-St. Louis (UMSL)? Granted, taking a DII school might be unusual, but UMSL has wanted to upgrade to DI for a while now.

Or maybe they might have to be in the OVC for a time so they can grow into a candidate. Who knows?

Unfortunately, just like with football, there is a hierarchy totem within Division 1 basketball as well, rtist. Probably what would be a better idea for UMSL is to go Division 1 anyway, but go to the Horizon League first with a goal of getting into the MVC later on when more realignment occurs, as I am sure it will, much to Double RSU's chagrin.

They could go to 14 with UWM, UIC, UTA and UMKC.

Milwaukee, Chicago, DFW and Kansas City.

Give them as much market stretch as possible.

(11-29-2021 09:18 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(11-21-2021 01:34 PM)rtist Wrote:  Would the MVC consider taking the University of Missouri-St. Louis (UMSL)? Granted, taking a DII school might be unusual, but UMSL has wanted to upgrade to DI for a while now.

Or maybe they might have to be in the OVC for a time so they can grow into a candidate. Who knows?

Unfortunately, just like with football, there is a hierarchy totem within Division 1 basketball as well, rtist. Probably what would be a better idea for UMSL is to go Division 1 anyway, but go to the Horizon League first with a goal of getting into the MVC later on when more realignment occurs, as I am sure it will, much to Double RSU's chagrin.

UMSL would have to add sports. They would be perfect for the OVC.

UIC Becomes A Front Runner, MVC Could Expand To 14



If the MVC goes to 14 taking UIC out of Horizon? Horizon is likely will add Grand Valley State.