Quote:WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden announced Wednesday that the United States is forming a new Indo-Pacific security alliance with Britain and Australia that will allow for greater sharing of defense capabilities, a move that could deepen a growing chasm in U.S.-China relations.

Biden, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison appeared together virtually to detail the new alliance, which will be called AUKUS (pronounced AWK-us).

“We all recognize the imperative of ensuring peace and stability in the Indo-Pacific over the long term,” said Biden, who said the new alliance reflects a broader trend of key European partners playing a role in the Indo-Pacific. “We need to be able to address both the current strategic environment in the region and how it may evolve.”

The new security alliance is likely to be seen as a provocative move by China, which has repeatedly lashed out at Biden as he’s sought to refocus U.S. foreign policy on the Pacific in the early going of his presidency.

Before the announcement, a senior administration official sought to play down the idea that the alliance was meant to serve as a deterrent against China in the region. The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to preview the announcement, said the alliance’s creation was not aimed at any one country, and is about a larger effort to sustain engagement and deterrence in the Indo-Pacific by the three nations.

“We will have a new opportunity to reinforce Britain’s place at the leading edge of science and technology, strengthening our national expertise, and perhaps most significant, the U.K., Australia and the U.S. will be joined even more closely together,” Johnson said.

The three countries have agreed to share information in areas including artificial intelligence, cyber and underwater defense capabilities, the official said.

They announced plans to support Australia acquiring nuclear-powered submarines. To date, the only country that the United States has shared nuclear propulsion technology with is Britain. Biden said Australia is not seeking to develop a nuclear weapons program and information sharing would be limited to helping it develop a submarine fleet.

The announcement of the new security alliance comes as the U.S.-China relationship has deteriorated. Beijing has taken exception with Biden administration officials repeatedly calling out China over human rights abuses in Xianjing province, the crackdown on democracy activists in Hong Kong, and cybersecurity breaches originating from China, as well as Beijing’s handling of the coronavirus pandemic and what the White House has labeled as “coercive and unfair” trade practices.

Even as White House officials have repeatedly spoken out about China, administration officials say they want to work with Beijing on areas of common interest, including curbing the pandemic and climate change.

Biden spoke by phone with China’s President Xi Jinping last week amid growing frustration on the American side that high-level engagement between the two leaders’ top advisers has been largely unfruitful.

After the 90-minute phone call, official Xinhua News Agency reported that Xi expressed concerns that U.S. government policy toward China has caused “serious difficulties” in relations.

Asked on Tuesday about media reports that Xi had declined to commit to meet with him in person, the U.S. president said it was “untrue.”

The U.S. and Australia, along with India and Japan, are members of a strategic dialogue known as “the Quad.” Biden is set to host fellow Quad leaders at the White House next week.

Biden has sought to rally allies to speak with a more unified voice on China and has tried to send the message that he would take a radically different approach to China than former President Donald Trump, who placed trade and economic issues above all else in the U.S.-China relationship.

In June, at Biden’s urging, Group of Seven nations called on China to respect human rights in Hong Kong and Xinjiang province and to permit a full probe into the origins of COVID-19. While the allies broadly agreed to work toward competing against China, there was less unity on how adversarial a public position the group should take.

The president has also sought to make clear to allies, particularly those in the Quad, that his administration would keep focused on China.

With Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihide Suga, Biden has underscored the U.S. commitment to protecting the Senkaku Islands, a group of uninhabited islets administered by Tokyo but claimed by Beijing. In talks with India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi, Biden has emphasized the need for “close cooperation to promote a free and open Indo-Pacific.” And with Australia’s Morrison, the president has stressed that the two nations’ alliance was essential to stability in the region.

Link

lol---the original deal was so bad its shocking it was ever made. Paying 2 or three times what you'd pay for 12 nuclear subs---but only getting a dozen conventional submarines---was incredibly bad. But then the kicker was---it will be 20 years before you get them. lol---they will probably would have been nearly obsolete by the time they finally began service. To be fair---part of the problem was the Austrailians were insisting on a non-nuclear boat---but were buying a French nuclear design. Thus, the entire vessel had to be redesigned to be a conventional sub. Still---the price and the 20 year wait were ridiculous. If they lost the deal---the French have nobody to blame but themselves. They should have built the things fast before the Aussies could back out of the deal.

Yes, the non-nuke French nuke sub deal for Australia was a joke of epic proportions.

"Oui, ve have dese beautiful Barracuda-class nuclear attack submarines and dey vill only cost du 13B Euro a piece."

"OUI! That's great mate, but could you cut out the reactors and drop in some air-independant drives hooked up to diesels? That would be great!"

"Ah! Ve could do that. It vill require a redesign vhich vill cost a few hundred million more Euro's vhich vill drive up the per unit cost...."

"Ah! Great on ya mate! Thanks!"

"Did dese idiots just agree to pay us more for less capable...."

"SHHHH! Let's just get dare signatures on ze contract and go."

Just being honest here, I'm not sure I want to give our nuclear submarine technologies to brutal tyrannical nations that abuse their citizens' and deny them their Liberty and Rights.

(09-17-2021 01:08 AM)49RFootballNow Wrote:  Just being honest here, I'm not sure I want to give our nuclear submarine technologies to brutal tyrannical nations that abuse their citizens' and deny them their Liberty and Rights.

Are you referring to the UK & Australia?

The UK & Australia are more acceptable to me than California & Massachusetts.

If we can't trust them, then there's zero foreign countries we can trust. And that's not a position we can afford to be in. Literally. If we "go it alone," we'll either lose the battles or go bankrupt trying to win.

Are the submarines vaccinated?

One of the big things in the past that stopped Australia from pursuing nuclear subs was the fact that they don't have a domestic nuclear power industry to back it up with (or to give their retired veterans of nuclear power civilian jobs in).

Another issue they have is apparently the RAN doesn't seem to be able to find enough recruits to man their full current slate of Collins-class boats.

(09-17-2021 06:19 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Are you referring to the UK & Australia?

Yes, both

(09-17-2021 06:19 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The UK & Australia are more acceptable to me than California & Massachusetts.

I see your point, but to their credit I don't think either has sent their police forces out to pepper spray and baton anyone just yet.

(09-17-2021 06:19 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If we can't trust them, then there's zero foreign countries we can trust.

We can't trust our own politicians. I sure as hell don't trust ANOTHER COUNTRY'S politicians.

Reagan said it best: "Trust, but verify."

I'm glad we are sharing defense with Australia and Britain. We need to stop doing everything by ourselves.

America has done just fine doing everything by ourselves for a long time.

Here's my thinking, from the perspective of a retired Naval officer.

We are going to have significant shortfalls in submarine numbers in next couple of decades, because General Dynamics (GD) and Huntington Industries (HII) are our only two submarine shipyards, and they can't build as fast as we are decommissioning the Los Angeles class (as an aside, slowing down the decoms would help too). We need a smaller, cheaper nuclear submarine, or else building in the numbers we need will destroy our budget. And we need at least one or two more shipyards capable of building and maintaining subs, preferably on the west coast. We could also use some Air Independent Propulsion conventional submarines (SSKs) to do missions like choke point control, and free our nuke subs up to do blue water missions. The Aussie deal with the French made little sense because of the difficulty in redesigning a nuclear sub (the Barracuda) to a conventional one (the so-called Shortfin Barracuda). So suppose we did this:

1) We contract to Naval Group to acquire or build a shipyard on the west coast (actually southern Alaska makes sense for several reasons), and order about 30 Barracudas for the US Navy. This is basically the same deal as they did with Brazil. They cost about 1/3 to 1/2 as much as a Virginia, but they are perfectly capable. This more than replaces their Aussie order, gets us another shipyard that can make or repair subs, and gets our sub numbers back where they need to be a whole lot faster than relying on just EB and HII on the east coast. This more than replaces the deal that Naval Group lost with the Aussies.

2) Do a similar deal with a maker of AIP SSKs, probably HDW (Germany) for the type 212/216 or Kockums (Sweden) for the A26, order about 30 of them, get them to acquire/build a west coast yard.

3) As far as the Aussies needs, they really don't have a domestic nuke industry or the infrastructure to handle a nuke sub. Also, nuclear energy is politically very unpopular in Australia and absolutely anathema in neighboring New Zealand, which has announced that no Aussie nuke sub will be allowed to visit NZ. The best fit for the Aussie needs is probably the TK Type 216, so also get TK to build a yard in Adelaide to build 12-15 for the Aussies.

With those lengths of production runs (far longer than anything they get at home) it makes sense for them to establish shipyards here. We get two shipyards out of the deal and we get a much larger sub force in a much shorter time frame than EB and HII can deliver from two east coast yards. We also get some sub manufacturing/maintenance capability on the west coast, where we need it. Australia gets more subs, and more appropriate subs for its needs, and gets them faster than it would have gotten the Shortfin Barracudas. And Naval Group and France get an order for roughly double the number of subs they were going to sell Australia.

One small drawback is that we end up making the smaller nukes and the SSKs on the Pacific side, where distances really argue for the Virginias, and the Virginias on the Atlantic side. But there are things called the Panama Canal and the Arctic, and even going around the Cape Horn.

France recalls ambassadors to US, Australia over sub deal

PARIS (AP) — America’s oldest ally, France, recalled its ambassador to the United States on Friday in an unprecedented show of anger that dwarfed decades of previous rifts.

The relationship conceived in 18th century revolutions appeared at a tipping point after the U.S., Australia and Britain shunned France in creating a new Indo-Pacific security arrangement.

It was the first time ever France has recalled its ambassador to the U.S., according to the French foreign ministry. Paris also recalled its envoy to Australia.

Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said in a written statement that the French decision, on request from President Emmanuel Macron, “is justified by the exceptional seriousness of the announcements” made by Australia and the United States.

He said Australia’s decision to scrap a big French conventional submarine purchase in favor of nuclear subs built with U.S. technology is “unacceptable behavior between allies and partners.”

Ambassador Philippe Etienne tweeted the announcements are “directly affecting the vision we have of our alliances, of our partnerships and of the importance of the Indo-Pacific for Europe.”

The Biden administration has been in close contact with French officials about the decision to recall Etienne to Paris, National Security Council spokesperson Emily Horne said.

“We understand their position and will continue to be engaged in the coming days to resolve our differences, as we have done at other points over the course of our long alliance,” she said in a statement. “France is our oldest ally and one of our strongest partners, and we share a long history of shared democratic values and a commitment to working together to address global challenges.”

State Department spokesman Ned Price also stressed the value the U.S. places on its relationship with France and expressed hope that talks between the two sides will continue in the coming days, including at the United Nations General Assembly next week.

Macron, however, for the first time since he came into office in 2017, won’t be making a speech to the annual meeting of world leaders. Le Drian will instead deliver the French address.

The Australian government said it regretted France’s decision to recall its ambassador to that nation.

“Australia understands France’s deep disappointment with our decision, which was taken in accordance with our clear and communicated national security interests,” Foreign Minister Marise Payne’s office said in a statement. It added that Australia valued its relationship with France and looked forward to future engagements together.

The decision to recall the ambassador represents a shocking turnaround for France under Macron, who — after an increasingly bitter relationship with former President Donald Trump — warmly clasped hands with Biden at a G-7 summit in June and confirmed that “America is back.”

Macron has not yet commented on the issue. The recall is his boldest foreign policy move yet in a four-year presidency in which he has sought to strengthen France’s diplomatic footprint and role in European policy-making, and to rally France’s neighbors around his vision for a Europe less dependent on the U.S. military umbrella.

France has pushed for several years for a European strategy for boosting economic, political and defense ties in the region stretching from India and China to Japan and New Zealand. The EU this week unveiled its plan for the Indo-Pacific.

Earlier Friday, a top French diplomat, who spoke anonymously in line with customary government practice, said that Macron received a letter from Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison on Wednesday morning announcing the decision to cancel the submarine deal.

French officials then decided to reach out to the U.S. administration “to ask what was going on,” he said. He added that discussions with Washington took place just two to three hours before Biden’s public announcement.

Le Drian on Thursday expressed “total incomprehension” at the move and criticized both Australia and the U.S.

“It was really a stab in the back. We built a relationship of trust with Australia, and this trust was betrayed,” he said. “This is not done between allies.”

He also compared Biden’s move to those of Trump under his “America First” doctrine.

Paris had raised the issue of the Indo-Pacific strategy during the June 25 visit to Paris of U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, expressing the importance of its submarine program with Australia, the French diplomat said.

“We said that it was for us a very important and critical component in our Indo-Pacific strategy,” he said. Blinken met with Macron during the visit.

The French diplomat said Australia never mentioned to France its will to shift to nuclear-powered submarines, including during a meeting between Macron and Morrison in Paris on June 15.

A recall of ambassadors is highly unusual between allied countries.

In 2019, Paris recalled its envoy to neighboring Italy after the country’s leaders made critical public comments about the French government. Last year, France recalled its ambassador to Turkey after Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Macron needed mental health treatment.
https://apnews.com/article/france-recall...c3a738717e

When does N Korea and Iran get theirs?

Macron Remains Angry After France Cut Out of Nuke Sub Deal With Australia

Quote:French President Emmanuel Macron’s anger over Paris being cut out of a nuclear submarine construction arrangement with Australia is not likely to ebb anytime soon, according to reports, as the embattled leader seeks to settle on additional responses.

The French leader’s angst stems from a deal that appears to have been done behind Paris’ back involving the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia as part of a new defense pact aimed at corralling an expansive and increasingly capable and aggressive China.

Earlier, Paris and Canberra had worked out a deal for a dozen French-designed diesel submarines — Australia’s first — worth $66 billion. But the new tripartite agreement cuts France out of the equation entirely.

“After the deal was announced on Wednesday, the French president recalled ambassadors to Washington and Canberra and canceled events, a symbolic gesture rare among such close allies. French officials say Macron is looking for an adequate response, and they’ve been renewing his calls for Europe to boost its own defense capabilities,” Bloomberg News reported.

“Macron’s public reaction is partly directed at a domestic audience. Seven months before a presidential election, his main rival, the nationalist Marine Le Pen, is closing in according to some polls. He wants to show voters he’s tough. But allies are likely to soon call time on the outrage,” the outlet continued.

President Joe Biden has been in contact with Macron by phone, but British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has dismissed any concerns about relationships and said London and Paris remain on “rock-solid” ground. Further, Bloomberg said that Australian Prime Minister “Scott Morrison doesn’t seem in any mood to make amends.”

Over time, after initial anger and frustration settle, the French leader may look for some concessions like relaxing COVID-19 restrictions on travel to the United States or additional U.S. aid to France in support of its efforts in Africa’s Western Sahel region, where French troops are fighting against Islamic extremists.

“Now that the U.S. has gotten the message and has just made a first (small) gesture, we should defend our interests,” Paris-based researcher and Sciences Po teacher Antoine Bondaz noted on Twitter, going on to suggest that France may want to look for other ways to cooperate with allies in the region.

However, in the end, there may not be much that Macron can do other than fume; he does not have much backing from the rest of Europe for a stronger response.

“His ideas on reducing European reliance on U.S. and NATO aren’t new — he once called the alliance ‘brain dead’ — and may not get much traction,” Bloomberg noted. “Leaders in eastern Europe and the Baltics are skeptical of any move that would reduce the American presence in a region where they feel threatened by Russia. Germany is nearing an election and coalition talks that might go into next year.”

What has angered Macron and many within the French government the most, however, is the fact that the tripartite deal was made behind Paris’ knowledge.

“Before leaving Canberra, ambassador Jean-Pierre Thebault said the Australian Defense Minister only contacted his French counterpart after the deal was reported by media outlets, adding there were ‘no warnings’ during the 18 months that the plan was being hammered out,” Bloomberg reported, adding that the ambassador remarked that his country had been “stabbed in the back.”

In addition, French government officials and Macron were miffed that their country was not asked to be a part of the coalition, given that Paris has substantial and varied interests in the Pacific region as well as thousands of troops spread out over several French-claimed islands including New Caledonia and Reunion.

And, Paris also is concerned about Chinese expansionism, Bloomberg noted.

(09-20-2021 07:00 PM)CrimsonPhantom Wrote:  Macron Remains Angry After France Cut Out of Nuke Sub Deal With Australia

Quote:French President Emmanuel Macron’s anger over Paris being cut out of a nuclear submarine construction arrangement with Australia is not likely to ebb anytime soon, according to reports, as the embattled leader seeks to settle on additional responses.

The French leader’s angst stems from a deal that appears to have been done behind Paris’ back involving the United States, the United Kingdom, and Australia as part of a new defense pact aimed at corralling an expansive and increasingly capable and aggressive China.

Earlier, Paris and Canberra had worked out a deal for a dozen French-designed diesel submarines — Australia’s first — worth $66 billion. But the new tripartite agreement cuts France out of the equation entirely.

“After the deal was announced on Wednesday, the French president recalled ambassadors to Washington and Canberra and canceled events, a symbolic gesture rare among such close allies. French officials say Macron is looking for an adequate response, and they’ve been renewing his calls for Europe to boost its own defense capabilities,” Bloomberg News reported.

“Macron’s public reaction is partly directed at a domestic audience. Seven months before a presidential election, his main rival, the nationalist Marine Le Pen, is closing in according to some polls. He wants to show voters he’s tough. But allies are likely to soon call time on the outrage,” the outlet continued.

President Joe Biden has been in contact with Macron by phone, but British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has dismissed any concerns about relationships and said London and Paris remain on “rock-solid” ground. Further, Bloomberg said that Australian Prime Minister “Scott Morrison doesn’t seem in any mood to make amends.”

Over time, after initial anger and frustration settle, the French leader may look for some concessions like relaxing COVID-19 restrictions on travel to the United States or additional U.S. aid to France in support of its efforts in Africa’s Western Sahel region, where French troops are fighting against Islamic extremists.

“Now that the U.S. has gotten the message and has just made a first (small) gesture, we should defend our interests,” Paris-based researcher and Sciences Po teacher Antoine Bondaz noted on Twitter, going on to suggest that France may want to look for other ways to cooperate with allies in the region.

However, in the end, there may not be much that Macron can do other than fume; he does not have much backing from the rest of Europe for a stronger response.

“His ideas on reducing European reliance on U.S. and NATO aren’t new — he once called the alliance ‘brain dead’ — and may not get much traction,” Bloomberg noted. “Leaders in eastern Europe and the Baltics are skeptical of any move that would reduce the American presence in a region where they feel threatened by Russia. Germany is nearing an election and coalition talks that might go into next year.”

What has angered Macron and many within the French government the most, however, is the fact that the tripartite deal was made behind Paris’ knowledge.

“Before leaving Canberra, ambassador Jean-Pierre Thebault said the Australian Defense Minister only contacted his French counterpart after the deal was reported by media outlets, adding there were ‘no warnings’ during the 18 months that the plan was being hammered out,” Bloomberg reported, adding that the ambassador remarked that his country had been “stabbed in the back.”

In addition, French government officials and Macron were miffed that their country was not asked to be a part of the coalition, given that Paris has substantial and varied interests in the Pacific region as well as thousands of troops spread out over several French-claimed islands including New Caledonia and Reunion.

And, Paris also is concerned about Chinese expansionism, Bloomberg noted.

Just a thought---maybe Macron should have been more accommodating to the Aussie politicians who were catching hell at home over the awful deal and continuous snags, ridiculous cost overruns, and endless delivery delays by the French. They knew the Aussies were not happy. The problem was typical French arrogance. They assumed they had the Aussies over a barrel and were just being French.