(10-27-2021 06:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-27-2021 06:09 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The Notre Dame ship has sailed for the Big East, and it is in best interests for both schools long-term.

ND, academically, is really only on par with Georgetown in the Big East. In the ACC, it is surrounded with similar academically-elite institutions (many of whom are in the top-50 of USNWR). The ACC also has a larger footprint, that covers several strong recruiting areas for football and basketball - Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia and most of the NE. Finally, despite ND being a Catholic school, it does not seek out associations with other Catholic peer institutions. If BC was not in the ACC, that would not have stopped ND from joining. Make no mistake, moving from the ACC to the Big East (today) would be a strongly perceived step-down for ND.

For the Big East, it made one, and only one, exception to membership that involved football (UConn). I doubt we will see any other former member join due to the likely stability of of the P4/5 moving forward. The Big East has basketball-first athletic departments in large metro markets. ND doesn't fit either of those objectives. Could programs like Syracuse or Pittsburgh return as well? Sure - but it is very, very unlikely. UConn was a unique situation, but one that was predicted ever since the AAC formed. The ACC is not the AAC.

Would the Big East want ND? Of course - every single conference would. Would ND want the Big East? I think there are several alternatives they would consider first IMO (ACC, SEC, B1G ).

I got the impression the C7 had no interest in Notre Dame. They didn't want their non-rev sports overrun by ND football money. And Notre Dame didn't offer enough in basketball to offset that.

Notre Dame was out before the split. Bowls and football scheduling were factors. You'd think that the decline of the Big East membership was a factor, but Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbrick helped pick most of the incoming football schools.

(10-27-2021 06:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-27-2021 06:09 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The Notre Dame ship has sailed for the Big East, and it is in best interests for both schools long-term.

ND, academically, is really only on par with Georgetown in the Big East. In the ACC, it is surrounded with similar academically-elite institutions (many of whom are in the top-50 of USNWR). The ACC also has a larger footprint, that covers several strong recruiting areas for football and basketball - Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia and most of the NE. Finally, despite ND being a Catholic school, it does not seek out associations with other Catholic peer institutions. If BC was not in the ACC, that would not have stopped ND from joining. Make no mistake, moving from the ACC to the Big East (today) would be a strongly perceived step-down for ND.

For the Big East, it made one, and only one, exception to membership that involved football (UConn). I doubt we will see any other former member join due to the likely stability of of the P4/5 moving forward. The Big East has basketball-first athletic departments in large metro markets. ND doesn't fit either of those objectives. Could programs like Syracuse or Pittsburgh return as well? Sure - but it is very, very unlikely. UConn was a unique situation, but one that was predicted ever since the AAC formed. The ACC is not the AAC.

Would the Big East want ND? Of course - every single conference would. Would ND want the Big East? I think there are several alternatives they would consider first IMO (ACC, SEC, B1G ).

I got the impression the C7 had no interest in Notre Dame. They didn't want their non-rev sports overrun by ND football money. And Notre Dame didn't offer enough in basketball to offset that.

Every single C7 member would have loved to have had a conference affiliation continue with Notre Dame for non-football sports. The ACC, however, offered many advantages and opportunities that the Big East could not.

In 2012, the C7 cared about two things: maximizing television revenues and maintaining basketball brand value as a collective. Notre Dame would have contributed, in theory, to both objectives.

Looking from an AD/President perspective SLU has the offerings of a Big East school.

SLU would add field hockey, m/w swimming, m/w track and field, esports. Sports where there aren’t many Big East teams participating.

Wichita State doesn’t even have soccer. They really only add track and field in the above regard. I thought I read somewhere that m/w soccer is a required or core sport in the Big East.

I realize this consideration is way behind basketball, but SLU has some less talked about advantages beyond cultural fit.

My 2 cents.

What about Loyola Chicago?

(10-27-2021 09:18 PM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  What about Loyola Chicago?

About as much chance as LaSalle or George Washington.

(10-27-2021 09:18 PM)Bluedevil16 Wrote:  What about Loyola Chicago?

One of the reasons (among many) I'm pleased to see Belmont join the Missouri Valley is for Bruins athletics to be affiliated with Loyola (and, more loosely, for Chicago and Nashville to be "connected"). So for selfish reasons, I would not want to see the Big East add LUChicago (the chances of that are so slim regardless).

The BE doesn't want or need and FB schools (at the FBS level anyway) If by some calamity the ACC was shook up the exceptions would be BC, Syracuse and perhaps Pitt since they have history. IMO everyone would want ND and Duke so they would less likely be left behind. None of the above will happen
SLU to BE
Temple takes their place in the A10
Temple FB joins UConn Umass and Liberty in the CUSA as FB only or those for convince Navy and a few TBD to form a new FB only league

(10-27-2021 08:14 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(10-27-2021 06:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-27-2021 06:09 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The Notre Dame ship has sailed for the Big East, and it is in best interests for both schools long-term.

ND, academically, is really only on par with Georgetown in the Big East. In the ACC, it is surrounded with similar academically-elite institutions (many of whom are in the top-50 of USNWR). The ACC also has a larger footprint, that covers several strong recruiting areas for football and basketball - Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia and most of the NE. Finally, despite ND being a Catholic school, it does not seek out associations with other Catholic peer institutions. If BC was not in the ACC, that would not have stopped ND from joining. Make no mistake, moving from the ACC to the Big East (today) would be a strongly perceived step-down for ND.

For the Big East, it made one, and only one, exception to membership that involved football (UConn). I doubt we will see any other former member join due to the likely stability of of the P4/5 moving forward. The Big East has basketball-first athletic departments in large metro markets. ND doesn't fit either of those objectives. Could programs like Syracuse or Pittsburgh return as well? Sure - but it is very, very unlikely. UConn was a unique situation, but one that was predicted ever since the AAC formed. The ACC is not the AAC.

Would the Big East want ND? Of course - every single conference would. Would ND want the Big East? I think there are several alternatives they would consider first IMO (ACC, SEC, B1G ).

I got the impression the C7 had no interest in Notre Dame. They didn't want their non-rev sports overrun by ND football money. And Notre Dame didn't offer enough in basketball to offset that.

Every single C7 member would have loved to have had a conference affiliation continue with Notre Dame for non-football sports. The ACC, however, offered many advantages and opportunities that the Big East could not.

In 2012, the C7 cared about two things: maximizing television revenues and maintaining basketball brand value as a collective. Notre Dame would have contributed, in theory, to both objectives.

My understanding is that BE membership was way behind the ACC option and pretty far behind a potential B12 option at the time. Our other (the BE’s Olympic) sports weren’t up to par apparently, despite the Big12 not offering soccer or lax strength which we have in spades. Baseball would certainly have been far better in the B12, but ND’s students are from soccer and lax states.

The ACC made for an almost perfect fit from an all sports perspective, and the B12 offered bowl tie ins that an (at the time perhaps?) down fball team couldn’t command. But no one would ever say no to Notre Dame in almost any sport.

If Temple stays, and I think they will as long as Memphis is in the AAC, who'd be 14 in the A-10? I'm thinking Siena. Belmont could do a double jump like Butler but I don't know if they want a southeastern school leaving Davidson and Dayton as the longer trips for most of the league members. Loyola-Chi. is another one that could get the spot but be a real outlier.

I’m not giving up the double round robin for SLU or any other A10 program. It’s Gonzaga or stay at 11. We still haven’t seen the details of what UConn brought to the TV contract. Who says it doesn’t go up even if they stay at 11?

There are no schools worth adding to the BE. SLU, Dayton, Wichita State, etc. add nothing except another mouth to feed. Gonzaga is on an island in the middle of nowhere. They would be a great add if they were east of the Mississippi, but they are not. The time away from class and the cost for the Olympic sports teams to travel to the BE schools and visa-versa makes adding Gonzaga unworkable. Olympic sport teams do not travel by charter. I believe there are no direct flights into Spokane from a Big East city, not even Chicago. So you are talking about 8-12 hours of travel time each way, if you including travel to airport and sitting around 2 hours before your flight.

(10-28-2021 09:26 AM)Hoya Hoya Hoya Wrote:  I’m not giving up the double round robin for SLU or any other A10 program. It’s Gonzaga or stay at 11. We still haven’t seen the details of what UConn brought to the TV contract. Who says it doesn’t go up even if they stay at 11?

Amen! The double round robin is awesome. I hope that we get to stay at 11 and not have Fox force a "meh" #12 on us.

(10-28-2021 02:08 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  If Temple stays, and I think they will as long as Memphis is in the AAC, who'd be 14 in the A-10? I'm thinking Siena. Belmont could do a double jump like Butler but I don't know if they want a southeastern school leaving Davidson and Dayton as the longer trips for most of the league members. Loyola-Chi. is another one that could get the spot but be a real outlier.

It's not an outlier at all with SLU and Dayton in the league or even if they lose one of those schools. They'd fit everything that I would think that the A-10 would want: massive TV market, top recruiting area, institutional fit, recent on-the-court success, etc. I'd be fairly shocked that the A-10 would pick anyone else if they need to backfill with anyone.

Remember that Chicago is one of the easiest places to travel to for Olympic sports out of any location with two major airports and three national airline hubs (United, American and Southwest). Any physical distance from other members is mitigated by the fact that it's a super-easy flight with a lot of options.

Below is an accumulation of where potential candidates matchup with current Big East membership in various categories. If anyone would like a school added to see where they match up, just let me know and I can include. Similarly, if there is another data-driven category you'd like to see, just let me know and I can put the data together.

Academics (USNWR Rankings)
#23 Georgetown
#49 Villanova
#63 UConn
#79 Gonzaga
#83 Marquette
#103 Creighton
#103 Saint Louis
#127 DePaul
#127 Seton Hall
#127 Dayton
#172 St. John's
#172 VCU
#1 (Regional) Butler
#1 (Regional) Providence
#5 (Regional) Xavier

Endowment
VCU - $1,992,338,000
Georgetown - $1,863,711,000
Saint Louis - $1,197,421,000
Villanova - $805,425,000
DePaul - $737,037,000
St. John's - $719,681,000
Marquette - $693,731,000
Dayton - $609,712,000
Creighton - $565,975,000
UConn - $476,181,000
Gonzaga - $308,172,000
Seton Hall - $265,193,000
Providence - $234,228,000
Butler - $211,953,000
Xavier - $198,613,000

Enrollment
UConn - 32,669
VCU - $31,076
DePaul - 21,922
St. John's - 21,721
Georgetown - 19,371
Saint Louis - 11,823
Marquette - 11,550
Dayton - 11,241
Villanova - 10,942
Seton Hall - 9,815
Creighton - 8,770
Gonzaga - 7,501
Xavier - 7,112
Butler - 5,544
Providence - 4,816

Media Market Rankings
#1 New York City (St. John's)
#3 Chicago (DePaul)
#4 Philadelphia (Villanova)
#6 Washington D.C. (Georgetown)
#21 St. Louis (Saint Louis)
#28 Indianapolis (Butler)
#33 Hartford/New Haven (UConn)
#35 Cincinnati (Xavier)
#36 Milwaukee (Marquette)
#53 Providence (Providence)
#56 Richmond (VCU)
#64 Dayton (Dayton)
#69 Omaha (Creighton)
#77 Spokane (Gonzaga)

Home Basketball Attendance (from 2020) / Arena Capacity
Creighton - 17,314 / 18,320
Marquette - 15,145 / 17,341
Dayton - 13,364 / 13,435
Villanova - 11,299 / 20,478 (Wells Fargo), 6,501 (Finneran)
Seton Hall - 10,328 / 18,711
Xavier - 10,311 / 10,224
Providence - 10,064 / 12,410
UConn - 9,199 / 10,167 (Gampel), 15,600 (XL)
Butler - 8,617 / 9,100
Georgetown - 7,931 / 20,356
VCU - 7,637 / 7,637
Gonzaga - 6,000 / 6,000
Saint Louis - 6,880 / 10,600
St. John's - 6,236 / 19,812 (MSG), 5,602 (Carnesecca)
DePaul - 5,187 / 10,387

NCAA Tournament Bids
39 - Villanova
33 - Marquette
33 - UConn
31 - Georgetown
29 - St. John's
28 - Xavier
23 - Gonzaga
22 - Creighton
20 - Providence
18 - Dayton
18 - DePaul
18 - VCU
16 - Butler
13 - Seton Hall
10 - Saint Louis

NCAA Tournament - Sweet 16s
18 - Villanova
17 - UConn
16 - Marquette
11 - Georgetown
11 - Gonzaga
9 - St. John's
8 - DePaul
8 - Xavier
7 - Dayton
6 - Butler
5 - Providence
4 - Creighton
4 - Seton Hall
2 - Saint Louis
1 - VCU

NCAA Tournament - Elite Eights
13 - Villanova
11 - UConn
9 - Georgetown
7 - Marquette
6 - St. John's
5 - Gonzaga
4 - Providence
3 - Dayton
3 - DePaul
3 - Xavier
2 - Butler
2 - Seton Hall
1 - Creighton
1 - Saint Louis
1 - VCU

(10-28-2021 09:26 AM)Hoya Hoya Hoya Wrote:  I’m not giving up the double round robin for SLU or any other A10 program. It’s Gonzaga or stay at 11. We still haven’t seen the details of what UConn brought to the TV contract. Who says it doesn’t go up even if they stay at 11?

Too bad it's not up to you. Hoyas not carrying their weight since the reformation has lessened their pull in the league. I think Nova is the school with the biggest voice now, and no one will take less money because GTown doesn't want something.

(10-28-2021 12:10 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(10-28-2021 02:08 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  If Temple stays, and I think they will as long as Memphis is in the AAC, who'd be 14 in the A-10? I'm thinking Siena. Belmont could do a double jump like Butler but I don't know if they want a southeastern school leaving Davidson and Dayton as the longer trips for most of the league members. Loyola-Chi. is another one that could get the spot but be a real outlier.

It's not an outlier at all with SLU and Dayton in the league or even if they lose one of those schools. They'd fit everything that I would think that the A-10 would want: massive TV market, top recruiting area, institutional fit, recent on-the-court success, etc. I'd be fairly shocked that the A-10 would pick anyone else if they need to backfill with anyone.

Remember that Chicago is one of the easiest places to travel to for Olympic sports out of any location with two major airports and three national airline hubs (United, American and Southwest). Any physical distance from other members is mitigated by the fact that it's a super-easy flight with a lot of options.

Yes but Dayton would have been the furthest west w/ SLU gone. I'm just wondering if they'd want Loyola or just take a school in the footprint.

(10-27-2021 08:14 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(10-27-2021 06:58 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(10-27-2021 06:09 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  The Notre Dame ship has sailed for the Big East, and it is in best interests for both schools long-term.

ND, academically, is really only on par with Georgetown in the Big East. In the ACC, it is surrounded with similar academically-elite institutions (many of whom are in the top-50 of USNWR). The ACC also has a larger footprint, that covers several strong recruiting areas for football and basketball - Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia and most of the NE. Finally, despite ND being a Catholic school, it does not seek out associations with other Catholic peer institutions. If BC was not in the ACC, that would not have stopped ND from joining. Make no mistake, moving from the ACC to the Big East (today) would be a strongly perceived step-down for ND.

For the Big East, it made one, and only one, exception to membership that involved football (UConn). I doubt we will see any other former member join due to the likely stability of of the P4/5 moving forward. The Big East has basketball-first athletic departments in large metro markets. ND doesn't fit either of those objectives. Could programs like Syracuse or Pittsburgh return as well? Sure - but it is very, very unlikely. UConn was a unique situation, but one that was predicted ever since the AAC formed. The ACC is not the AAC.

Would the Big East want ND? Of course - every single conference would. Would ND want the Big East? I think there are several alternatives they would consider first IMO (ACC, SEC, B1G ).

I got the impression the C7 had no interest in Notre Dame. They didn't want their non-rev sports overrun by ND football money. And Notre Dame didn't offer enough in basketball to offset that.

Every single C7 member would have loved to have had a conference affiliation continue with Notre Dame for non-football sports. The ACC, however, offered many advantages and opportunities that the Big East could not.

In 2012, the C7 cared about two things: maximizing television revenues and maintaining basketball brand value as a collective. Notre Dame would have contributed, in theory, to both objectives.

ND didn't do much for basketball. They were a good program, but so was everyone else. They were below Marquette, Georgetown and Villanova. And their non-revs would have won almost all the titles. I remember reading some thoughts about not wanting their non-revs. I don't know how prevalent that was, but Notre Dame with their football program is just not a comparable program to the Big East schools.