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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #181
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-16-2021 09:07 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Detroit is in no way shape or form in the north east. They are a mid-west city.

"Midwest" is a fuzzy term. My Dad, born on the farm in Huron, South Dakota, used to chuckle when national political reporting called Ohio and Michigan and such "the industrial Midwest", which sounded to him like the slaughterhouses and mobile home factories in Eastern Iowa.

Of course, Ohio and Michigan were part of the original Midwest, as they had been part of the original West, which then moved further west. But as the Western frontier kept on shifting, so the idea of where the "Midwest" was expanded ... and some people in the parts further west don't think of the original "Midwest" as very Midwestern.
(This post was last modified: 10-17-2021 09:13 AM by BruceMcF.)
10-17-2021 09:08 AM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #182
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-17-2021 09:08 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(10-16-2021 09:07 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Detroit is in no way shape or form in the north east. They are a mid-west city.

"Midwest" is a fuzzy term. My Dad, born on the farm in Huron, South Dakota, used to chuckle when national political reporting called Ohio and Michigan and such "the industrial Midwest", which sounded to him like the slaughterhouses and mobile home factories in Eastern Iowa.

Of course, Ohio and Michigan were part of the original Midwest, as they had been part of the original West, which then moved further west. But as the Western frontier kept on shifting, so the idea of where the "Midwest" was expanded ... and some people in the parts further west don't think of the original "Midwest" as very Midwestern.

People in Ohio and Indiana basically consider the midwest the old Northwest Territory, ie Big 10 (prior to Penn St.) territory. In Kansas they consider it from Kansas east into Indiana/Ohio. Much like people in Georgia and the Carolinas often don't really consider Texas part of "the south."
10-17-2021 09:57 AM
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BigEastMike Offline
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Post: #183
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-17-2021 09:08 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(10-16-2021 09:07 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Detroit is in no way shape or form in the north east. They are a mid-west city.

"Midwest" is a fuzzy term. My Dad, born on the farm in Huron, South Dakota, used to chuckle when national political reporting called Ohio and Michigan and such "the industrial Midwest", which sounded to him like the slaughterhouses and mobile home factories in Eastern Iowa.

Of course, Ohio and Michigan were part of the original Midwest, as they had been part of the original West, which then moved further west. But as the Western frontier kept on shifting, so the idea of where the "Midwest" was expanded ... and some people in the parts further west don't think of the original "Midwest" as very Midwestern.

To me the Dakotas are part of the great plains region
10-17-2021 10:06 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #184
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-16-2021 08:48 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(10-16-2021 08:30 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(10-16-2021 07:13 AM)schmolik Wrote:  St. Louis is of no benefit to A-10 schools. If I'm St. Joe's or LaSalle's, I'd pay the Big East to take St. Louis. Dayton at least is a premier men's basketball school. But if they both leave for the Big East or other conferences, I feel the Atlantic 10 would either not replace them or choose "Atlantic" schools to replace them.

I don’t disagree about SLU, but, that grouping of super-MAAC or CAA schools are worrisome as an overall fan of the conference. Even as a Philly guy, I have a problem with a school like La Salle having input on these things when they’re institutionally ailing. I hate thinking of them as such, but like a diseased limb of the A10. They can’t possibly handle a conference with a large geographic footprint, but there are great programs out there not in the northeast who would add value; conference success is your success, too.

The problem is out of region programs are like buying stocks. The A-10 "bought" VCU coming off a Final Four. They've been a perennial NCAA Tournament team but they haven't made a Sweet 16 since and Shaka Smart and Will Wade left. The Big East bought Creighton when Doug McDermott (the player, not the coach) was there. Creighton has made one Sweet 16 in the entire 64 team era, last year. Xavier (two Sweet 16's in the Big East era) was a "better" purchase although they lost Chris Mack to Louisville. I think the A-10 was happy with VCU and Creighton has been a decent men's basketball program without Doug McDermott (will there be any backlash from Greg McDermott's words last year remains to be seen). But A-10 would probably like St. Louis back and the last thing they need is another one. Charlotte didn't make one NCAA men's tournament in eight years in the Atlantic 10, the A-10 was lucky that Conference USA took them off their hands. Of course the A-10 replaced them with Davidson who they "bought" off Steph Curry's run. Davidson has made two NCAA Tournaments since they joined the A-10. If the A-10 is buying an "out of towner", make sure you're getting a Xavier and not a Charlotte (St. Louis actually had a decent run 2012-2014 with three consecutive 2nd rounds as well as a 2019 NCAA Tournament appearance).

The counter to this is that conferences take upward trending programs who show commitment to sustained appropriate levels of spending and success in the desired sport(s), along with demonstrating value toward adding considerable populations into the greater conference footprint. In this way, VCU and Davidson have looked great as additions, even if neither have really repeated previous success. Mason, of course, not so great (yet).

Loyola-Chicago follows the same pattern.
10-18-2021 06:11 AM
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #185
RE: Big East Expansion
There is no denying the pedigree of Gonzaga. Their success is both admirable and enviable. What is in joining the BE for them? How much more $$ would they get? Would a good chunk of that be spent on sending their olympic teams east? Being where they are certainly hasnt prevented them from being successful, becoming highly ranked or getting national exposure. They dont need to sell playing in MSG to get recruits. If they are/were truly interested in joining an eastern/midwestern league why havent they scheduled more matchups with BE schools? I cant imagine no one in the BE wants to schedule them.
That being said the geography is truly a high hurdle to get over. Think like a school president. Should Gonzagas product ever decline would they still be as desirable? No doubt their program is well above any viable expansion candidate However in the lean times I think the presidents would prefer to be associated with a school currently in the leagues footprint.,
10-18-2021 01:32 PM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #186
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-15-2021 07:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The old NL East was quite geographically-challenged, though. When the NL split into divisions, the Cubs and Cardinals (1) insisted on being together (which will always be the case since they are like Yankees-Red Sox) and (2) wanted to continue to play New York.

Those clubs had more leverage, so the Reds and Braves were sent to the NL West despite being in the Eastern Time Zone.

All of that IS true, but you're missing THE REAL REASON the Cardinals/Cubs were in the East, and Atlanta/Cincinnati in the West: Wrigley Field did not have lights.

If Chicago was in the NL West, there'd need to be an off-day anytime that any team (including the Cubs) was scheduled to go from LA, SD or SF to Chicago. Because games in California would end at about 12 am CT, they'd have to do media, pack up, fly to Chicago, go right to the ballpark at play at 1 pm CT.

That would be either mathematically impossible, or just too insanely difficult to make a schedule with the exact specific order of opponents for every single NL West team. Cincinnati and Atlanta also are both Delta hubs. Delta has a very long history of partnership and providing charter flights for baseball teams... since the late 60s. That is not a coincidence.
10-18-2021 02:00 PM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #187
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-14-2021 10:53 AM)UConnHusky Wrote:  I just can't see Gonzaga being added. Eventually Mark Few will step down and there is no guarantee that the program can sustain the same level of success at that point. Also, we are talking basketball money, not football money. Will Gonzaga really add that much more money to pie that is being divided than a VCU or a St. Louis to make that geography justifiable? The premium that Fox would pay for them isn't all that much versus some of the other potential candidates once it is divvied out and trips to Spokane are factored into the equation.

Most likely additions:
St.Louis - great market, huge potential, solid academics
Dayton - great fanbase, but Xavier would possibly object if they are the only add (as has been said). This would be if the BE went to 14.
VCU - it is a state school, but they bring more to the table than Richmond. WAY bigger student population and potential fanbase

Not as likely, but still possible additions:
Memphis - they likely wouldn't want to be an Indy in football, but their market and program are solid adds and would benefit them as well.
Wichita - Pairs well with former MVC mate Creighton, but the fit isn't better than Memphis and the academics may be worse

Unlikely additions:
Davidson - elite academics, but only 1800 students
Duquesne - they are IN Pittsburgh, but do they really BRING Pittsburgh? The brand doesn't move the needle.
Loyola Chicago - small arena in a duplicate market with a now departed head coach
UMass - there is some appeal here, but why would UConn let UMass cut into their Boston pipeline which has yielded us some great players?
Richmond - only 4000 students. They fit institutionally, but the ceiling is way higher with VCU
St. Bonaventure - only 2380 students and the brand doesn't move the needle

I think that Fox would be willing to make it worth the while of everyone to have Gonzaga in the Big East, because TV networks really don't care that the volleyball team spends 4 out of 14 days in-season on an airplane.

I think the Big East is looking at expansion totally backward, because every conference wants to get the best programs to make their leagues stronger... because they were built on a 100-year old foundation and are trying to serve football and basketball, which doesn't apply to the Big East at all.

The Big East could be getting 7 NCAA bids per year if they built their conference on "how do we get as many NCAA bids as possible?" instead of "How do we have the deepest league in basketball?"

No one cares that your 9th place team is really good if their record isn't good enough to get into the NCAA Tournament. So few people know how the math works to get bids.


The two best schools for the Big East to add are actually Duquesne and St. Bonaventure, and I can show my work.
10-18-2021 05:07 PM
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Nerdlinger Offline
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Post: #188
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-18-2021 02:00 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  
(10-15-2021 07:22 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The old NL East was quite geographically-challenged, though. When the NL split into divisions, the Cubs and Cardinals (1) insisted on being together (which will always be the case since they are like Yankees-Red Sox) and (2) wanted to continue to play New York.

Those clubs had more leverage, so the Reds and Braves were sent to the NL West despite being in the Eastern Time Zone.

All of that IS true, but you're missing THE REAL REASON the Cardinals/Cubs were in the East, and Atlanta/Cincinnati in the West: Wrigley Field did not have lights.

If Chicago was in the NL West, there'd need to be an off-day anytime that any team (including the Cubs) was scheduled to go from LA, SD or SF to Chicago. Because games in California would end at about 12 am CT, they'd have to do media, pack up, fly to Chicago, go right to the ballpark at play at 1 pm CT.

That would be either mathematically impossible, or just too insanely difficult to make a schedule with the exact specific order of opponents for every single NL West team. Cincinnati and Atlanta also are both Delta hubs. Delta has a very long history of partnership and providing charter flights for baseball teams... since the late 60s. That is not a coincidence.

No, it was because the Cubs and Cards wanted the eastern exposure. The alignment facilitated Wrigley Field's lasting so long without lights, but if they'd wanted to be in the West, they would have just added lights.
10-18-2021 08:15 PM
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trephin Offline
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Post: #189
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-18-2021 05:07 PM)JSchmack Wrote:  The two best schools for the Big East to add are actually Duquesne and St. Bonaventure, and I can show my work.

forgetting the derision and the realistic chances of these 2 schools, as i understand you the premise is good OOC/ bad In Conference ..

what are you looking for in the OOC win percentage? i assume in conference doesn't matter / below .500?

wouldn't Duquesne be part of a recency bias .. maybe just 2 years under dambrot and MAAYBE the everhart years?

SBU would be less so having good runs with schmidt and baron

i think they stay at 11 but are you also proposing they go beyond 12?
(This post was last modified: 10-18-2021 11:23 PM by trephin.)
10-18-2021 08:19 PM
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NBPirate Offline
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Post: #190
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-17-2021 09:57 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-17-2021 09:08 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(10-16-2021 09:07 PM)BigEastMike Wrote:  Detroit is in no way shape or form in the north east. They are a mid-west city.

"Midwest" is a fuzzy term. My Dad, born on the farm in Huron, South Dakota, used to chuckle when national political reporting called Ohio and Michigan and such "the industrial Midwest", which sounded to him like the slaughterhouses and mobile home factories in Eastern Iowa.

Of course, Ohio and Michigan were part of the original Midwest, as they had been part of the original West, which then moved further west. But as the Western frontier kept on shifting, so the idea of where the "Midwest" was expanded ... and some people in the parts further west don't think of the original "Midwest" as very Midwestern.

People in Ohio and Indiana basically consider the midwest the old Northwest Territory, ie Big 10 (prior to Penn St.) territory. In Kansas they consider it from Kansas east into Indiana/Ohio. Much like people in Georgia and the Carolinas often don't really consider Texas part of "the south."

There are people in Georgia and Alabama that don’t consider North Carolina part of the south
10-18-2021 08:52 PM
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CarlSmithCenter Offline
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Post: #191
RE: Big East Expansion
Add Gonzaga, it’s West Coast travel partner St. Mary’s, Wichita State, Loyola-Chicago, and Dayton.
10-18-2021 10:16 PM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #192
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-18-2021 08:19 PM)trephin Wrote:  forgetting the derision and the realistic chances of these 2 schools, as i understand you the premise is good OOC/ bad In Conference ..

what are you looking for in the OOC win percentage? i assume in conference doesn't matter / below .500?

wouldn't Duquesne be part of a recency bias .. maybe just 2 years under dambrot and MAAYBE the everhart years?

SBU would be less so having good runs with schmidt and baron

i think they stay at 11 but are you also proposing they go beyond 12?

Yeah, you get the gist of it. You can find extremely long, detailed explanations on the Holy Land of Hoops boards, where I actually won some converts to my line of thinking. I'll try to keep it short.

Conference play is zero-sum: 10 team Big East, 18 games = 90-90. With UConn, 110-110 conference record. Because about half the league is gonna be under .500, they're capping themselves at 6 teams max, 7 with UConn. But the difference between 3rd and 9th is FREAKISHLY TINY with their membership, so they're not getting a true "tiered separation" like some other leagues, so they've averaged less than half their size in bid numbers.

If they had gone a different route at the outset... I'll use Detroit and Duquesne instead of the Bonnies, because we know they sucked for a decade and the Bonnies didn't.

18 game schedule, Duquesne in the East, Detroit in the West. Duquesne might have upset a rebuilding GTown or St John's at home, and beaten Detroit. But they're going 3-15 max. Detroit is probably going 1-17 or 0-18.

So the other 10 would have been 104-76 instead of 90 and 90. Look at the Big East standings and add 2.5 conference wins to teams 5-9 in the Big East... They'd be AVERAGING 6.5 bids.

It's counter-intuitive, for sure, but that's how conference play works.

But adding "bad teams" makes the league less strong, right? Not necessarily. Duquesne has done an admirable job in the A-10 of scheduling weak OOC to not hurt the league. You add $5 million in TV revenue to their budgets and now they don't have to go play OOC road games like they do in the A-10. Duquesne will play WVU and Pitt or Penn State.

You just let them know when you talk to them to invite them: We want you to play the worst 12 teams in Division I, all at home in OOC play. Your goal is to be 12-0 when Big East play starts.

All they have to do is MATCH the Big East OOC win percentage, and the league stays the same strength in the NET/RPI numbers. Duquesne and Detroit don't need OOC SOS, because if they finish .500 in the Big East, they're having enough marquee wins to get a bid, period.


Your SOS = the average win percentage of your opponents. But 19+ opponents are CONFERENCE TEAMS. So the overall record of your conference opponents matters a lot more than "playing a tough OOC schedule."

Conferences go .500 against each other, so the way to make your conference game SOS high is to have the whole league post good OOC records.

If my school is picked to finish 8th in the Big East, and we go 11-1 OOC, and finish 8th in the Big East at 6-12, we are 17-13.

If your school is picked to finish 9th in the Big East and goes 11-1 OOC and finish 9th in the Big East at 5-13, you are 16-14.

When teams 1-7 in the Big East play us, they're playing 17-13, and 16-14. Their SOS is high even though we got those records by buying guarantee games against 5-26 teams from the MEAC, SWAC and NEC.
10-19-2021 01:38 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #193
RE: Big East Expansion
I wonder. This new American is going to be horrible in basketball. Tulane, ECU and South Florida were already bad. But to that they are adding horrible UTSA, FAU and Charlotte. North Texas is not that good either. Rice has been mediocre but can jump up. Only UAB is decent.

Given that, I feel Memphis, Temple, SMU, Tulsa and Wichita State may get very antsy about hoops in the next few years.

Could Temple be asking about the Big East? The three schools west of the Mississippi (Wichita State, Tulsa, SMU) I can see talking to the MWC. If the ESPN payments to the AAC schools drop and they become a 1 1/2 bid conference, these things may come to pass.

Long winded way of saying, the Big East and Temple may become the next dance item.
10-19-2021 01:46 AM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #194
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-18-2021 08:15 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  No, it was because the Cubs and Cards wanted the eastern exposure. The alignment facilitated Wrigley Field's lasting so long without lights, but if they'd wanted to be in the West, they would have just added lights.

I totally agree that they wanted more eastern exposure, because no one in the Central Time Zone WANTS to be aligned with the Pacific Time Zone. That's bad for business.

(The Mets actually VOLUNTEERED to be aligned with the Dodgers/Giants because they thought it would be better for home attendance -- that's such a happy pre-cable TV thought).

But the Cubs are STILL FIGHTING to play more night games to this day. They're only allowed 43 night games per season at home.


The schedule model was 18 games vs Division (3 road series), 12 vs other division (2 road series).

The California teams would need an off day before every road trip to CHI, and every weekday trip to the NL East. And an off-day before every homestand after a road trip that ended at ATL or an NL East team.

There were only 13 off days back then. There just simply weren't enough for Chicago to be in the NL West.
10-19-2021 01:59 AM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #195
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-19-2021 01:46 AM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I wonder. This new American is going to be horrible in basketball. Tulane, ECU and South Florida were already bad. But to that they are adding horrible UTSA, FAU and Charlotte. North Texas is not that good either. Rice has been mediocre but can jump up. Only UAB is decent.

Given that, I feel Memphis, Temple, SMU, Tulsa and Wichita State may get very antsy about hoops in the next few years.

Could Temple be asking about the Big East? The three schools west of the Mississippi (Wichita State, Tulsa, SMU) I can see talking to the MWC. If the ESPN payments to the AAC schools drop and they become a 1 1/2 bid conference, these things may come to pass.

Long winded way of saying, the Big East and Temple may become the next dance item.

The Big East has had a long-standing tradition of "You got our back and we got yours"

Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's and Providence will vote as one group against any school from DC, Philly, the NY/NJ metro area, or New England.

Xavier and DePaul will join them to keep out Dayton or Loyola (or Valpo)

There is no "veto-power" but it's a collective unspoken understanding.
10-19-2021 02:09 AM
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VCE Offline
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Post: #196
RE: Big East Expansion
I won’t donate a dollar if GU votes to add a bottom feeder like the Bonnies. Crap market, crap school, crap bball. We are the Big East and we don’t need to play RPI games like the A10, MWC or AAC.
10-19-2021 02:31 AM
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Realignment Offline
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Post: #197
RE: Big East Expansion
Saint Louis is the add.
10-19-2021 02:47 AM
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Post: #198
RE: Big East Expansion
JS: but college administrators SHOULD care about those volleyball players!
10-19-2021 02:47 AM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #199
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-19-2021 02:31 AM)VCE Wrote:  I won’t donate a dollar if GU votes to add a bottom feeder like the Bonnies. Crap market, crap school, crap bball. We are the Big East and we don’t need to play RPI games like the A10, MWC or AAC.

That's funny, because the Bonnies have been better than you for about a decade.

And if you disagree, call your AD and tell him to go on the road and beat us.
10-19-2021 04:09 AM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #200
RE: Big East Expansion
(10-19-2021 04:09 AM)JSchmack Wrote:  
(10-19-2021 02:31 AM)VCE Wrote:  I won’t donate a dollar if GU votes to add a bottom feeder like the Bonnies. Crap market, crap school, crap bball. We are the Big East and we don’t need to play RPI games like the A10, MWC or AAC.

That's funny, because the Bonnies have been better than you for about a decade.

And if you disagree, call your AD and tell him to go on the road and beat us.

You guys are ranked #23 in the Polls. You've been good recently. I was drinking w/ my buds at the Fresno St. pub before class watching you guys vs Kentucky in 2000, Thinking how cool it was I finally got to see you in the tourney. You got on tv for that, if I remember you telling me right. They'll add St.Louis because it fills their gap. Too bad because I think Dayton is the best bball option but Xavier is too close to allow that.
10-19-2021 04:18 AM
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