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The “Measuring Stick”
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EagleHawk Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
EMU doesn't fire coaches these days, Creighton will be coaching here for as long as he wants to be.
05-03-2021 09:15 PM
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RamyEMU Offline
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Post: #22
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-03-2021 07:54 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 07:48 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 05:55 PM)KPJ Wrote:  No one is calling for his replacement.
At least, I’m not.
I’m simply asking how do we measure his success moving forward.

I don’t really think anyone is. Not yet at least. I guess I just don’t see the trends and optimism that most on here do. Hopefully, Creighton proves me wrong and kicks some ass.

By the way, no one is going to poach him if he wins 8 games. He would need to win the MAC to get serious interest from P5 schools. He has a sub .500 MAC record even if you DON’T count the first two seasons. That’s a tough sell to a fan base. I could see a somewhat lateral move to a CUSA school that pays more than we do, but he isn’t an appealing P5 candidate without a conference title or multiple 7/8 win seasons in a row.

He's not good enough to move up, and not bad enough to fire.

He was in consideration for P5 vacancies already. At least one- I recall specifically reading about it in USA Today on a work trip back in 2018 I believe- but can’t remember which team or exactly when. Regardless, he had not won 8 games yet. I am hoping last years record scares off potential poachers. But my sense is if he has a solid season and bowl win, he is gone. I would think 8 wins might do it, but obviously the more wins the more likely it becomes.
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2021 09:54 PM by RamyEMU.)
05-03-2021 09:53 PM
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holybovine Offline
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Post: #23
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-03-2021 09:53 PM)RamyEMU Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 07:54 PM)holybovine Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 07:48 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 05:55 PM)KPJ Wrote:  No one is calling for his replacement.
At least, I’m not.
I’m simply asking how do we measure his success moving forward.

I don’t really think anyone is. Not yet at least. I guess I just don’t see the trends and optimism that most on here do. Hopefully, Creighton proves me wrong and kicks some ass.

By the way, no one is going to poach him if he wins 8 games. He would need to win the MAC to get serious interest from P5 schools. He has a sub .500 MAC record even if you DON’T count the first two seasons. That’s a tough sell to a fan base. I could see a somewhat lateral move to a CUSA school that pays more than we do, but he isn’t an appealing P5 candidate without a conference title or multiple 7/8 win seasons in a row.

He's not good enough to move up, and not bad enough to fire.

He was in consideration for P5 vacancies already. At least one- I recall specifically reading about it in USA Today on a work trip back in 2018 I believe- but can’t remember which team or exactly when. Regardless, he had not won 8 games yet. I am hoping last years record scares off potential poachers. But my sense is if he has a solid season and bowl win, he is gone. I would think 8 wins might do it, but obviously the more wins the more likely it becomes.

He’s going to need to win 10 to get a better job. His overall record is not exciting to those outside Ypsilanti.
05-03-2021 09:58 PM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #24
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-03-2021 09:15 PM)EagleHawk Wrote:  EMU doesn't fire coaches these days, Creighton will be coaching here for as long as he wants to be.

EMU doesnt fire people - but we do not renew contracts sometimes. Genyk for example.

Another interesting comp might be Pat Fitzgerald at NW who has never won the conference and didnt win his division until year 13.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2021 09:07 AM by dansplaining.)
05-04-2021 06:36 AM
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EMUGLORYDAYSthe90's Offline
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Post: #25
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 06:36 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 09:15 PM)EagleHawk Wrote:  EMU doesn't fire coaches these days, Creighton will be coaching here for as long as he wants to be.

EMU doesnt fire people - but we do not renew contracts sometimes. Genyk for example.

Another interesting comp might be Pat Fitzgerald at NW who has never won the conference and didnt win his division until year 13.
Pat Fitzgerald has a 106-81 record and has won 5 bowl games, and has a winning record in the big 10! Also, puts players in the NFL, had 2 first round draft picks this draft, more then Ohio St, Penn State, or Michigan, with academic standards higher then Michigan, more inclined with Ivy league schools! Fitzgerald could go anywhere! Please don't compare CC to Fitzgerald! Not in the same hemisphere! I'm hard on CC, and I really appreciate what he has done for the football program, but he might have peaked in 2018! 7-6 was the ceiling, and he needs to go 8-4 this season! Easy OOC schedule! Heath has the opportunity to be a legend if he can do what the great coaches do, and that's win within 3-4 years! Fleck, Campbell, Leipold, Neu, Babers, Groce, Dambrodt, Jans, Oats, etc..........
05-04-2021 10:26 AM
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emu steve Offline
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Post: #26
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
https://nusports.com/sports/football/ros...zgerald/22

Guys, folks can debate his record forever depending how one wants to slice and dice it.
05-04-2021 01:04 PM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #27
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 10:26 AM)EMUGLORYDAYSthe90s Wrote:  
(05-04-2021 06:36 AM)dansplaining Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 09:15 PM)EagleHawk Wrote:  EMU doesn't fire coaches these days, Creighton will be coaching here for as long as he wants to be.

EMU doesnt fire people - but we do not renew contracts sometimes. Genyk for example.

Another interesting comp might be Pat Fitzgerald at NW who has never won the conference and didnt win his division until year 13.
Pat Fitzgerald has a 106-81 record and has won 5 bowl games, and has a winning record in the big 10! Also, puts players in the NFL, had 2 first round draft picks this draft, more then Ohio St, Penn State, or Michigan, with academic standards higher then Michigan, more inclined with Ivy league schools! Fitzgerald could go anywhere! Please don't compare CC to Fitzgerald! Not in the same hemisphere! I'm hard on CC, and I really appreciate what he has done for the football program, but he might have peaked in 2018! 7-6 was the ceiling, and he needs to go 8-4 this season! Easy OOC schedule! Heath has the opportunity to be a legend if he can do what the great coaches do, and that's win within 3-4 years! Fleck, Campbell, Leipold, Neu, Babers, Groce, Dambrodt, Jans, Oats, etc..........

Fitz didnt win a bowl game until year 7. Lets look at the two coaches first 6 years:
CC
Eastern Michigan Eagles (Mid-American Conference) (2014–present)
2014 Eastern Michigan 2–10 1–7 6th (West)
2015 Eastern Michigan 1–11 0–8 6th (West)
2016 Eastern Michigan 7–6 4–4 4th (West) L Bahamas
2017 Eastern Michigan 5–7 3–5 5th (West)
2018 Eastern Michigan 7–6 5–3 T–2nd (West) L Camellia
2019 Eastern Michigan 6–7 3–5 T–5th (West) L Quick Lane

Fitz:
Northwestern Wildcats (Big Ten Conference) (2006–present)
2006 Northwestern 4–8 2–6 T–8th
2007 Northwestern 6–6 3–5 T–7th
2008 Northwestern 9–4 5–3 T–4th L Alamo
2009 Northwestern 8–5 5–3 T–4th L Outback
2010 Northwestern 7–6 3–5 T–7th L TicketCity
2011 Northwestern 6–7 3–5 5th (Legends) L Meineke Car Care

Fitz did better - but not significantly so. Fitz also took over a team that had gone 25-25 in the previous 3 seasons - so his rebuild wasnt quite so drastic.
05-04-2021 01:32 PM
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emu steve Offline
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Post: #28
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
BTW, the characterization of EMU and NW is certainly true that both were very difficult to win at.

Just a quick note, Pat Fitzgerald who some refer to as kind of a miracle worker was bellow .500 in the B1G until 2020. 2020 put him over .500.

Like most B1G coaches, he fattened up on OOC games. Many B1G teams go bowling with sub .500 B1G records. NW did so.

I can see the characterization of Fitzgerald and C.C.
05-04-2021 01:55 PM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #29
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 01:55 PM)emu steve Wrote:  BTW, the characterization of EMU and NW is certainly true that both were very difficult to win at.

Just a quick note, Pat Fitzgerald who some refer to as kind of a miracle worker was bellow .500 in the B1G until 2020. 2020 put him over .500.

Like most B1G coaches, he fattened up on OOC games. Many B1G teams go bowling with sub .500 B1G records. NW did so.

I can see the characterization of Fitzgerald and C.C.

For comparison sake - here is Bill Snyder's first 6 seasons at k-state:
Kansas State Wildcats (Big Eight Conference) (1989–1995)
1989 Kansas State 1–10 0–7 8th
1990 Kansas State 5–6 2–5 6th
1991 Kansas State 7–4 4–3 4th
1992 Kansas State 5–6 2–5 T–6th
1993 Kansas State 9–2–1 4–2–1 3rd W Copper
1994 Kansas State 9–3 5–2 3rd L Aloha

and solich at ohio:
Ohio Bobcats (Mid-American Conference) (2005–present)
2005 Ohio 4–7 3–5 4th (East)
2006 Ohio 9–5 7–1 1st (East) L GMAC
2007 Ohio 6–6 4–4 T–4th (East)
2008 Ohio 4–8 3–5 T–5th (East)
2009 Ohio 9–5 7–1 1st (East) L Little Caesars Pizza
2010 Ohio 8–5 6–2 2nd (East) L New Orleans
05-04-2021 01:58 PM
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EagleSam Offline
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Post: #30
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
Good comparisons all around. I just wish I had reason to believe Creighton will ascend to that level of success after two straight seasons of regression. I hope 2018 can be a relative norm instead of a ceiling, but we will need to see massive improvement on the defensive side of the ball for that to be the case.
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2021 02:09 PM by EagleSam.)
05-04-2021 02:09 PM
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emu79 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-03-2021 09:15 PM)EagleHawk Wrote:  EMU doesn't fire coaches these days, Creighton will be coaching here for as long as he wants to be.

Bingo. Creighton contract runs through 2022. Doubt the University will take action before then. Creighton if he has a great season on the other hand can just walk out based on modest buyout provisions. Creighton B10 wins and bowl appearances created more positive buzz for this university. Murphy never created that type of buzz and he had what 10 years to do so?
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2021 02:51 PM by emu79.)
05-04-2021 02:46 PM
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EagleSam Offline
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Post: #32
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
Completely different sports. Mediocrity is rewarded with a bowl game in football. In reality, both Creighton and Murphy are (were, in Murphy’s case) seemingly unable to be better than middle of the pack in the MAC. One is celebrated as a program savior. The other...not so much.

Personally, I think we can do better than both of them.
05-04-2021 05:46 PM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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Post: #33
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 05:46 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  Completely different sports. Mediocrity is rewarded with a bowl game in football. In reality, both Creighton and Murphy are (were, in Murphy’s case) seemingly unable to be better than middle of the pack in the MAC. One is celebrated as a program savior. The other...not so much.

Personally, I think we can do better than both of them.

Sam you hit the nail on the head! The 800 pound gorilla in the room is "why do guys like me support Creighton and yet wanted Murphy gone"? Based solely on a W-L record, our attitude is baseless for sure, one could make a compelling case that Murphy was more effective in the MAC conference than Creighton.

Honestly I think it is FEAR. The last years of Harkema, then the procession of Cooper, Rasnick, Woodruff, Genyk and English, all failed miserably even though Cooper got hired by a P5 program with a brief 8-9 MAC record splash. Let's face it, building a basketball program with a 15 man roster is a far less steeper mountain to climb than a football team with 110 men. Most importantly, how many quality applicants are we likely to have? Yes I am terrified at the prospect of replacing Creighton. You may indeed be right, we might be able to do better, I simply am not willing to to do so based on what I have seen thus far.
05-04-2021 06:21 PM
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holybovine Offline
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Post: #34
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 05:46 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  Completely different sports. Mediocrity is rewarded with a bowl game in football. In reality, both Creighton and Murphy are (were, in Murphy’s case) seemingly unable to be better than middle of the pack in the MAC. One is celebrated as a program savior. The other...not so much.

Personally, I think we can do better than both of them.

Yep. Fear is a really strong motivator for our football fans.
05-04-2021 07:06 PM
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EMUGLORYDAYSthe90's Offline
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Post: #35
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 05:46 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  Completely different sports. Mediocrity is rewarded with a bowl game in football. In reality, both Creighton and Murphy are (were, in Murphy’s case) seemingly unable to be better than middle of the pack in the MAC. One is celebrated as a program savior. The other...not so much.

Personally, I think we can do better than both of them.
Preach Sam preach..........agree so much with this assessment! Murphy and CC are both .500 coaches, or less! Leipold took a terrible Buffalo program, and struggled his 1st 2 seasons, and then went 24-10 the last few seasons, and won 2 MAC east titles! CC struggled his 1st 2 seasons, and has a losing record his last 5 seasons.........And, Buffalo doesn't have a football tradition either.........But, CC is considered a God/savior by many people! Harkema then should've a statue outside Rynearson stadium then! Murphy's problem beside 10 years without winning the MAC was his comments about the E Michigan basketball job, and his lack of positivity about E Michigan, and Ypsilanti in general, but he did have 3 very good seasons! Heath hopefully can change everything!
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2021 07:21 PM by EMUGLORYDAYSthe90's.)
05-04-2021 07:20 PM
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EagleSam Offline
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Post: #36
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 06:21 PM)Jerry Weaver Wrote:  
(05-04-2021 05:46 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  Completely different sports. Mediocrity is rewarded with a bowl game in football. In reality, both Creighton and Murphy are (were, in Murphy’s case) seemingly unable to be better than middle of the pack in the MAC. One is celebrated as a program savior. The other...not so much.

Personally, I think we can do better than both of them.

Sam you hit the nail on the head! The 800 pound gorilla in the room is "why do guys like me support Creighton and yet wanted Murphy gone"? Based solely on a W-L record, our attitude is baseless for sure, one could make a compelling case that Murphy was more effective in the MAC conference than Creighton.

Honestly I think it is FEAR. The last years of Harkema, then the procession of Cooper, Rasnick, Woodruff, Genyk and English, all failed miserably even though Cooper got hired by a P5 program with a brief 8-9 MAC record splash. Let's face it, building a basketball program with a 15 man roster is a far less steeper mountain to climb than a football team with 110 men. Most importantly, how many quality applicants are we likely to have? Yes I am terrified at the prospect of replacing Creighton. You may indeed be right, we might be able to do better, I simply am not willing to to do so based on what I have seen thus far.

Completely fair. And Creighton hasn’t done anything to warrant being fired yet. All hypothetical from my end. It’s a big year for him, but he’s obviously still got some money in the bank in terms of job security. I’m just afraid that we’ve peaked.
05-04-2021 09:13 PM
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RamyEMU Offline
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Post: #37
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 05:46 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  Completely different sports. Mediocrity is rewarded with a bowl game in football. In reality, both Creighton and Murphy are (were, in Murphy’s case) seemingly unable to be better than middle of the pack in the MAC. One is celebrated as a program savior. The other...not so much.

Personally, I think we can do better than both of them.

I see your point about bowl games, seems like basically the top half of teams get a bowl game in football and indeed it is celebrated. But when the top half of teams in basketball get a CBI or CollegeInsider berth it is looked at with disdain.

Conversely, I think it is WAY HARDER to turn around a football program than a basketball program. In basketball you just need a couple players that are a cut above the rest. Football you really need much further permeation of quality players across the team- heck, you even need a whole team of assistants to do so.

Further, much of Murphy’s successes came earlier. Which is why we lost patience earlier. (That and Murphy’s bad games were horrendous while his good games were boring.)
Year 1-> MAC West title
Year 2-> Win Over Purdue
Year 3-> Top 100 non-conference performance -> CIT
Year 4-> Win Over Michigan -> CBI
Year 5 and 6-> declining years
Year 7-> Rebound year-> CIT
Year 8, 9, 10-> declining years

EDIT: Sorry, Jerry. I think I inadvertently stole your argument. I give you credit. FURTHER EDIT: I think I stole Glory’s argument too... I should learn to read all the posts first....
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2021 09:24 PM by RamyEMU.)
05-04-2021 09:18 PM
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KPJ Offline
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Post: #38
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
Let’s reset the conversation here:

What do you define as success moving forward for Creighton?
05-04-2021 10:22 PM
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EMUGLORYDAYSthe90's Offline
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Post: #39
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 10:22 PM)KPJ Wrote:  Let’s reset the conversation here:

What do you define as success moving forward for Creighton?
A MAC championship! Winning 8 games or more! Every team in the MAC has won 8 games or more the past decade except us! Even Akron! This next season is tailored made for us to join the club! 3-1 OOC, and 5-3 MAC!
(This post was last modified: 05-04-2021 10:57 PM by EMUGLORYDAYSthe90's.)
05-04-2021 10:51 PM
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dansplaining Offline
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Post: #40
RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-04-2021 10:51 PM)EMUGLORYDAYSthe90s Wrote:  
(05-04-2021 10:22 PM)KPJ Wrote:  Let’s reset the conversation here:

What do you define as success moving forward for Creighton?
A MAC championship! Winning 8 games or more! Every team in the MAC has won 8 games or more the past decade except us! Even Akron! This next season is tailored made for us to join the club! 3-1 OOC, and 5-3 MAC!

1st or 2nd in the division each of the next 2 seasons.
05-05-2021 06:46 AM
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