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The “Measuring Stick”
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KPJ Offline
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Post: #1
The “Measuring Stick”
I know a lot of folks are big time Creighton fans on this board. I like the guy a lot, but I find myself wondering what’s the best way to measure his success with the program… so I’ll throw it out there for discussion.

On the bright side:
* He’s a high character guy who works to instill that in his players.
* His teams have had the most success on the field since the 80’s.
* His teams have been to 3 bowl games.
* His teams have defeated 3 Big Ten teams.

On the challenges side:
* His teams have only finished above .500 in the conference once.
* They haven’t won any of the 3 bowl games they’ve reached.
* Albeit a weird year with COVID, the team took a significant step in the wrong direction in 2020 (year 7 for Creighton).
* We’re going into year 8 and a strong argument can be made that the team hasn’t gotten “over the hump”.

How do we measure success moving forward?
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2021 08:06 AM by KPJ.)
05-02-2021 08:03 AM
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emu steve Online
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 08:03 AM)KPJ Wrote:  I know a lot of folks are big time Creighton fans on this board. I like the guy a lot, but I find myself wondering what’s the best way to measure his success with the program… so I’ll throw it out there for discussion.

On the bright side:
* He’s a high character guy who works to instill that in his players.
* His teams have had the most success on the field since the 80’s.
* His teams have been to 3 bowl games.
* His teams have defeated 3 Big Ten teams.

On the challenges side:
* His teams have only finished above .500 in the conference once.
* They haven’t won any of the 3 bowl games they’ve reached.
* Albeit a weird year with COVID, the team took a significant step in the wrong direction in 2020 (year 7 for Creighton).
* We’re going into year 8 and a strong argument can be made that the team hasn’t gotten “over the hump”.

How do we measure success moving forward?

Glass is more than half full.

Some of the seasons were a bad break from being highly successful. Weren't two of the three bowl games heart breaking losses?

I have never been 'a loss is a loss. Period.' kind of guy. A game well played is a good game. No shame. Sometimes no one loses the game. Someone wins it. No loser.
05-02-2021 09:02 AM
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EagleSam Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
I love Creighton, and will always appreciate him turning our program around. We probably wouldn’t have all of the new upgrades, and the massive investments from donors, if it wasn’t for him. He seems like a great guy, and I’ve never heard a bad word about him from players, coaches, family members, and what not.

With that being said, the results have left a lot to be desired, and he needs to be held accountable. We haven’t had a decent defense since 2018, and I really don’t see that changing this season either. For all of his terrific wins against Big Ten teams, we rarely beat anyone good in the MAC. And the obvious elephant in the room is all of the close games he’s lost over the years.

At some point, we have to accept that he is a great program changer and leader, but not a great in-game coach. This is a big year for him. I think I need to see at least 7 wins to have any confidence in him moving forward. Another 4 or 5 win season would be disastrous, and I would think it’s time to move on.
05-02-2021 11:25 AM
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EMUGLORYDAYSthe90's Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 11:25 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love Creighton, and will always appreciate him turning our program around. We probably wouldn’t have all of the new upgrades, and the massive investments from donors, if it wasn’t for him. He seems like a great guy, and I’ve never heard a bad word about him from players, coaches, family members, and what not.

With that being said, the results have left a lot to be desired, and he needs to be held accountable. We haven’t had a decent defense since 2018, and I really don’t see that changing this season either. For all of his terrific wins against Big Ten teams, we rarely beat anyone good in the MAC. And the obvious elephant in the room is all of the close games he’s lost over the years.

At some point, we have to accept that he is a great program changer and leader, but not a great in-game coach. This is a big year for him. I think I need to see at least 7 wins to have any confidence in him moving forward. Another 4 or 5 win season would be disastrous, and I would think it’s time to move on.
You nailed it 10000 percent! The past 5 seasons he has a below .500 record, and also A losing MAC record! His job is to win football games, and we've next season 20 returning starters, out of 22! That's 91 percent returning! 8 wins in year 8, or it's time to move on.........Your best Statement was he needs to be held accountable! CC has done wonderful things, he's a great leader, but it's time to compete for the MAC title this season!
05-02-2021 12:10 PM
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RamyEMU Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
I don’t have statistics on attendance, but it seems to be way up during CC years. It “feels” like a more competitive program than what the win/loss record indicates (probably because of all the close losses, high profile wins, etc). So the casual fan is more interested, and that is good for the university/students/alums. If the mediocrity of the end results keep up too long, the casual fan will eventually become frustrated. But we are no where close to that point yet. To me, it is still fun football...
05-02-2021 03:39 PM
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emu steve Online
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 12:10 PM)EMUGLORYDAYSthe90s Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 11:25 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love Creighton, and will always appreciate him turning our program around. We probably wouldn’t have all of the new upgrades, and the massive investments from donors, if it wasn’t for him. He seems like a great guy, and I’ve never heard a bad word about him from players, coaches, family members, and what not.

With that being said, the results have left a lot to be desired, and he needs to be held accountable. We haven’t had a decent defense since 2018, and I really don’t see that changing this season either. For all of his terrific wins against Big Ten teams, we rarely beat anyone good in the MAC. And the obvious elephant in the room is all of the close games he’s lost over the years.

At some point, we have to accept that he is a great program changer and leader, but not a great in-game coach. This is a big year for him. I think I need to see at least 7 wins to have any confidence in him moving forward. Another 4 or 5 win season would be disastrous, and I would think it’s time to move on.
You nailed it 10000 percent! The past 5 seasons he has a below .500 record, and also A losing MAC record! His job is to win football games, and we've next season 20 returning starters, out of 22! That's 91 percent returning! 8 wins in year 8, or it's time to move on.........Your best Statement was he needs to be held accountable! CC has done wonderful things, he's a great leader, but it's time to compete for the MAC title this season!

Improvement is measured on a yard stick, if you will, depending on where someone (or team) started.

EMU FB will always have its own measuring stick. We're not Toledo or WMU or CMU which has had some great highlights over the years. Hint: WMU went to a New Year's bowl and CMU beat MSU twice.

C.C. took a team which was on its own 2 yard line. The program was disintegrating esp. after the death of Reed.
(This post was last modified: 05-02-2021 04:38 PM by emu steve.)
05-02-2021 04:37 PM
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 11:25 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love Creighton, and will always appreciate him turning our program around. We probably wouldn’t have all of the new upgrades, and the massive investments from donors, if it wasn’t for him. He seems like a great guy, and I’ve never heard a bad word about him from players, coaches, family members, and what not.

With that being said, the results have left a lot to be desired, and he needs to be held accountable. We haven’t had a decent defense since 2018, and I really don’t see that changing this season either. For all of his terrific wins against Big Ten teams, we rarely beat anyone good in the MAC. And the obvious elephant in the room is all of the close games he’s lost over the years.

At some point, we have to accept that he is a great program changer and leader, but not a great in-game coach. This is a big year for him. I think I need to see at least 7 wins to have any confidence in him moving forward. Another 4 or 5 win season would be disastrous, and I would think it’s time to move on.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Well put Sam.
05-02-2021 04:49 PM
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emu79 Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
You missed the academic achievements overall GPA for team.
Creighton has been a solid coach in all phases.
And his salary is below average for the MAC.
Lucky to have him.
It will be harder to keep him.
05-02-2021 05:56 PM
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TheWoodenNickle Offline
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The “Measuring Stick”
We all want to win more games and my perception of the CC program is that it is very stable. If that means we win 5 to 7 games per year with an occasional 8 or better then that's OK. Those of us that have watched EMU for years know that we're one wrong move away from sliding back to 4 wins at best.
05-02-2021 06:17 PM
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Jerry Weaver Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 11:25 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love Creighton, and will always appreciate him turning our program around. We probably wouldn’t have all of the new upgrades, and the massive investments from donors, if it wasn’t for him. He seems like a great guy, and I’ve never heard a bad word about him from players, coaches, family members, and what not.

With that being said, the results have left a lot to be desired, and he needs to be held accountable. We haven’t had a decent defense since 2018, and I really don’t see that changing this season either. For all of his terrific wins against Big Ten teams, we rarely beat anyone good in the MAC. And the obvious elephant in the room is all of the close games he’s lost over the years.

At some point, we have to accept that he is a great program changer and leader, but not a great in-game coach. This is a big year for him. I think I need to see at least 7 wins to have any confidence in him moving forward. Another 4 or 5 win season would be disastrous, and I would think it’s time to move on.

Keith has correctly identified me as an avid Creighton fan. He also made a VERY thought provoking post.

Sam you make solid points. Those Big Ten wins were extremely nice for the national exposure of the program but hardly spectacular, we were playing the bottom of the conference. We are in the MAC, the weakest conference in FBS, competing there is step one for any league program and we have not done so.

Honestly I would have no problem with Wetherbee giving the coach some heat right now. After his two-season disastrous start, he went 7-6 in 2016 with his least talented team in the past five years. Toledo, WMU, Miami and Missouri decisively thumped him that year. He, however, won five one possession games against Wyoming, BG, Ohio, BSU and CMU. He did, however, initiate his futility in OT games with a loss to NIU.

The point is this. Creighton entered 2016 with a 1-15 MAC record and HBO televising a program that suggested EMU drop the football program. Did he play looser then because his back was to the wall and subsequently win those close games? Four years later he had Pittsburgh beaten but chose to run Shaq Vann three times and allowed them to win. The story has been the same for much of every loss since that 2016 season. EMU is in nearly every game they lose, almost never embarrassed, but yet on the short end of the stick far too often including an 0-6 record in OT games. At some point the amazing record of close losses ceases to become coincidence and must be evaluated as a strategic deficiency. The players and coaches in the program, as a result expect to lose these games. That needs to change for sure.

That said, I still love the guy. EMU has played D1/FBS football for 48 years with TEN different coaches, ONLY two could claim success. Ed Chlebek had an overall sub .500 record but did kick ass in 1977 while I was in school and left for Boston College. Jim Harkema would be the "Ben Braun" picture of program success as he led EMU to four winning consecutive seasons, but at the end of the day he compiled a 32-41-4 MAC record and waved the white flag midseason, leaving the program in a very bad state.

Let's face it, the EMU football job probably ranks 130 out of 130 programs in the FBS. An up and coming PJ Fleck is not going to touch this job, EMU is considered a graveyard for head coaches. Creighton, however, embraced the position and has honestly exceeded my expectations as well as many sportswriters. His name often appears in any search for a lower level Power 5 opening.

This is my viewpoint only, but I like Chris Creighton and a .500 MAC record rather than taking a chance on someone else.
05-02-2021 06:25 PM
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EagleSam Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 06:17 PM)TheWoodenNickle Wrote:  We all want to win more games and my perception of the CC program is that it is very stable. If that means we win 5 to 7 games per year with an occasional 8 or better then that's OK. Those of us that have watched EMU for years know that we're one wrong move away from sliding back to 4 wins at best.

The occasional 8 or better has never happened under Creighton. Why should we expect it to start now? I hope I’m wrong and I would be thrilled if we win 8 or 9 games this season, but it’s year 8 and Creighton only had a winning record in the MAC in one of those. We haven’t beat CMU since they were a doormat, and he’s never won a Michigan MAC trophy.

I understand how awful the program was before he got here. Hell, I was a student when Ron English went 0-12 and followed it up with 2-10. But we should want to be a MAC contender (I think the donors agree), and that might mean having to make a hard choice with Creighton.
05-02-2021 06:30 PM
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 11:25 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love Creighton, and will always appreciate him turning our program around. We probably wouldn’t have all of the new upgrades, and the massive investments from donors, if it wasn’t for him. He seems like a great guy, and I’ve never heard a bad word about him from players, coaches, family members, and what not.

With that being said, the results have left a lot to be desired, and he needs to be held accountable. We haven’t had a decent defense since 2018, and I really don’t see that changing this season either. For all of his terrific wins against Big Ten teams, we rarely beat anyone good in the MAC. And the obvious elephant in the room is all of the close games he’s lost over the years.

At some point, we have to accept that he is a great program changer and leader, but not a great in-game coach. This is a big year for him. I think I need to see at least 7 wins to have any confidence in him moving forward. Another 4 or 5 win season would be disastrous, and I would think it’s time to move on.

Very well put Sam. Totally agree. Love the guy and glad he is on our side. I do think this year will be a VERY telling year. I think anything less than 7 wins will be disappointing considering the 20 starters returning, a VERY good QB situation, 8th yr head coach and a OOC schedule that isn't brutal. Man I hope he can get this done. On the other hand.....watch out if he wins 8-9 games. Someone will come calling...
05-02-2021 09:19 PM
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-02-2021 09:19 PM)steve4840 Wrote:  
(05-02-2021 11:25 AM)EagleSam Wrote:  I love Creighton, and will always appreciate him turning our program around. We probably wouldn’t have all of the new upgrades, and the massive investments from donors, if it wasn’t for him. He seems like a great guy, and I’ve never heard a bad word about him from players, coaches, family members, and what not.

With that being said, the results have left a lot to be desired, and he needs to be held accountable. We haven’t had a decent defense since 2018, and I really don’t see that changing this season either. For all of his terrific wins against Big Ten teams, we rarely beat anyone good in the MAC. And the obvious elephant in the room is all of the close games he’s lost over the years.

At some point, we have to accept that he is a great program changer and leader, but not a great in-game coach. This is a big year for him. I think I need to see at least 7 wins to have any confidence in him moving forward. Another 4 or 5 win season would be disastrous, and I would think it’s time to move on.

Very well put Sam. Totally agree. Love the guy and glad he is on our side. I do think this year will be a VERY telling year. I think anything less than 7 wins will be disappointing considering the 20 starters returning, a VERY good QB situation, 8th yr head coach and a OOC schedule that isn't brutal. Man I hope he can get this done. On the other hand.....watch out if he wins 8-9 games. Someone will come calling...

I'd like to jump in real quick with some comparisons with a coach that I think of most when i consider the work CC is doing at EMU: Bill Snyder.

Snyder at K-State didnt appear in a bowl game until year 5 and didnt win his conference until year 10. The stadium down there is named after him now.

I think CC falls into the 'playing not to lose' trap a lot and theres room for improvement on that front and that the team should probably win at least 7 games this season unless something wild happens injury wise. that being said he'd have to put up like a 2 win season for me to think he needs to go.

i refuse to go back to the days of genyk and english.
05-03-2021 06:33 AM
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EagleSam Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
Fair comparison. And I really hope that ends up being the case with Creighton. But I don’t think moving on from Creighton after several disappointing seasons would mean going back to Genyk and English. The program is in a far better place than it was then, and that’s because of CC.
05-03-2021 08:33 AM
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cidbearit Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
I also think you can't forget that until this past year, CC was working with an offensive coordinator who had much to do with in-game decisions. This past year CC took that responsibility on himself. It was a weird year with all the COVID stuff, so it's hard to say whether he didn't succeed with that plan, or if the year was just that bizarre. You can legitimately say two games were likely lost on penalty calls that were out of CC's control.

The other thing to consider is that those of you already calling for his replacement just might get your wish when he does get to that magical 8 win mark and pull off a bowl victory, which could very well be this next season. When you consider the points of significant success he has had with this program off the field, adding in 8 wins, a MAC trophy, and a bowl win will make him an irresistible prospect for a program that is looking for someone with experience at bringing a team up from the cellar. The question that needs to be asked is, "How are we going to keep CC here once he makes this team a winner?"

And I firmly believe he will get there, much sooner than later.
05-03-2021 04:47 PM
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emu steve Online
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-03-2021 04:47 PM)cidbearit Wrote:  I also think you can't forget that until this past year, CC was working with an offensive coordinator who had much to do with in-game decisions. This past year CC took that responsibility on himself. It was a weird year with all the COVID stuff, so it's hard to say whether he didn't succeed with that plan, or if the year was just that bizarre. You can legitimately say two games were likely lost on penalty calls that were out of CC's control.

The other thing to consider is that those of you already calling for his replacement just might get your wish when he does get to that magical 8 win mark and pull off a bowl victory, which could very well be this next season. When you consider the points of significant success he has had with this program off the field, adding in 8 wins, a MAC trophy, and a bowl win will make him an irresistible prospect for a program that is looking for someone with experience at bringing a team up from the cellar. The question that needs to be asked is, "How are we going to keep CC here once he makes this team a winner?"

And I firmly believe he will get there, much sooner than later.

If this were Twitter, you'd get a like from me.
05-03-2021 05:12 PM
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KPJ Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
No one is calling for his replacement.
At least, I’m not.
I’m simply asking how do we measure his success moving forward.
05-03-2021 05:55 PM
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
I think he is ok unless we totally crater to 2 wins or less.
05-03-2021 06:35 PM
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EagleSam Offline
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-03-2021 05:55 PM)KPJ Wrote:  No one is calling for his replacement.
At least, I’m not.
I’m simply asking how do we measure his success moving forward.

I don’t really think anyone is. Not yet at least. I guess I just don’t see the trends and optimism that most on here do. Hopefully, Creighton proves me wrong and kicks some ass.

By the way, no one is going to poach him if he wins 8 games. He would need to win the MAC to get serious interest from P5 schools. He has a sub .500 MAC record even if you DON’T count the first two seasons. That’s a tough sell to a fan base. I could see a somewhat lateral move to a CUSA school that pays more than we do, but he isn’t an appealing P5 candidate without a conference title or multiple 7/8 win seasons in a row.
05-03-2021 07:48 PM
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RE: The “Measuring Stick”
(05-03-2021 07:48 PM)EagleSam Wrote:  
(05-03-2021 05:55 PM)KPJ Wrote:  No one is calling for his replacement.
At least, I’m not.
I’m simply asking how do we measure his success moving forward.

I don’t really think anyone is. Not yet at least. I guess I just don’t see the trends and optimism that most on here do. Hopefully, Creighton proves me wrong and kicks some ass.

By the way, no one is going to poach him if he wins 8 games. He would need to win the MAC to get serious interest from P5 schools. He has a sub .500 MAC record even if you DON’T count the first two seasons. That’s a tough sell to a fan base. I could see a somewhat lateral move to a CUSA school that pays more than we do, but he isn’t an appealing P5 candidate without a conference title or multiple 7/8 win seasons in a row.

He's not good enough to move up, and not bad enough to fire.
05-03-2021 07:54 PM
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