(02-26-2021 09:37 AM)king king Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 04:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 03:52 PM)king king Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 03:44 PM)king king Wrote:  When the USSR fell in 91, there was almost zero bloodshed. Certainly no colossal military defeat.

And did the socialist state fail? Did the leadership radically change? Or did they find a less offensive way to market their agenda and transform socialism into fascism? I'll give you a hint. Putin's most admired world leader was Adolf Hitler. Putin was KGB. Putin is still the leader of a totalitarian regime and those who oppose him still find a way of dying by extraordinary means.

I give Putin this credit, his facelift of the USSR was absolutely the best bit of propaganda ever. Goebbels looks like an amateur by comparison.

You just moved the goalpost.

I answered your original question with a fact.

We can argue the weeds of what is and what isn't a democratic Russia, however, when the USSR failed, Putin was a KGB guy in East Germany.

Putin and Russia today - and since he came into power - do not equal USSR--->Russia in July 1991.

No sir your so called fact was a lie. The system of government in the USSR vs the so called fall of the Soviet Union and rebirth of Russia did not end the totalitarianism of the first, it merely repackaged it in a way that was more economical for the state. To imply totalitarianism ended with the fall of the first because of semantics is propaganda.

You sir attempted to move the goalposts, not I, by claiming something that looks like a fact (the USSR failed) but which objective scrutiny reveals to be a canard, it is still totalitarian, is somehow an exception to my assertion. It is not. They did teach you that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is most likely a duck? Well the same thing applies to the goosestep.

What you did is to give a great of example of how the left lies by how they word, or as Alinsky would put it, frame the presentation of a debate.

My point was that a totalitarian government (socialist, communist, fascist) doesn't change unless it is forced to change by military defeat. Russia is still totalitarian. They cut loose their support of the non productive parts of the old Soviet Union, focused their economic power on what was the most efficient to control and moved from a socialist society that claimed Marxism - Leninism as its core set of values to one that is a socialist society that claims corporate ideals as its core set of values which is more fascist in nature but then so is Putin. Darwin would applaud. They mutated to survive.

The system of government they used pre-July 1991 was communism.

Communism did NOT exist there after that time.

I can verify that first hand having witnessed it there in June 1992.

You listed three types of government - communism, socialism, fascism - and asked about an instance where one failed without a military battle. I gave you one.

Totalitarianism is NOT what is going on in Russia now. It is more authoritarianism as the people there do enjoy certain freedoms that were unthinkable pre-1991 and the political power centers around the main guy (Putin). Putin isn't worried about controlling the populace to the extreme that totalitarianism would engender. He just wants to stay in power and the education, arts, social aspects, etc of the rest of their society is pretty open. All of those things were controlled very carefully when they were communist.

I was alive through the whole damned cold war, studied communism from some of the sharpest minds on the subject in that one was the recorder for the House Un-American Activities Committee, another an Ambassador to Iran and Argentina, and the third an envoy to Taiwan. I know what Putin is and I know that even under some former Premiers that the arts were open, sports exalted, and that the former Soviet people had some freedom within their own country.

You can play semantics all you would like but substantively little has changed since Gorbachev. Most of the openness you describe was there prior to the fall of the Soviet Union was really simply a metamorphosis into just another socialist system.

I think now you just get off on thinking you are being clever by playing word games to wiggle out of spots where you simply can't admit you are wrong. And frankly that illustrates a attitude all to prevalent for a generation which thinks it knows things that they weren't even alive to witness, believes things they read instead of eye witness accounts, and has been so coddled by a leftist education system that pats them on the head when they regurgitate back the propaganda pablum they have been spoon fed, that they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the ass.

You can call a hot steaming pile feces, excrement, pooh, or crap. You can spray it with socialist perfume and mandate that the English word for sheisse never be uttered and you can mandate that from this time forward it will be called product of dog, but step in it and its the same old shite. The poor folks of Russia still step in the same old shite every morning. The only thing that has changed is the verbiage and the leader.

We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I doubt it will be many more years before you can travel state to state without papers. I'm happy to have been an American that could travel from James Bay to Cancun without papers. Those days are gone! When 5% of the people own 95% of the wealth you aren't free, and certainly not as free as you think.

Now teach that to those "young minds full of mush" (an homage) and maybe you'll be worth something. But if you think Russia has changed your still selling repackaged pooh!

(02-26-2021 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 09:37 AM)king king Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 04:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 03:52 PM)king king Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And did the socialist state fail? Did the leadership radically change? Or did they find a less offensive way to market their agenda and transform socialism into fascism? I'll give you a hint. Putin's most admired world leader was Adolf Hitler. Putin was KGB. Putin is still the leader of a totalitarian regime and those who oppose him still find a way of dying by extraordinary means.

I give Putin this credit, his facelift of the USSR was absolutely the best bit of propaganda ever. Goebbels looks like an amateur by comparison.

You just moved the goalpost.

I answered your original question with a fact.

We can argue the weeds of what is and what isn't a democratic Russia, however, when the USSR failed, Putin was a KGB guy in East Germany.

Putin and Russia today - and since he came into power - do not equal USSR--->Russia in July 1991.

No sir your so called fact was a lie. The system of government in the USSR vs the so called fall of the Soviet Union and rebirth of Russia did not end the totalitarianism of the first, it merely repackaged it in a way that was more economical for the state. To imply totalitarianism ended with the fall of the first because of semantics is propaganda.

You sir attempted to move the goalposts, not I, by claiming something that looks like a fact (the USSR failed) but which objective scrutiny reveals to be a canard, it is still totalitarian, is somehow an exception to my assertion. It is not. They did teach you that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is most likely a duck? Well the same thing applies to the goosestep.

What you did is to give a great of example of how the left lies by how they word, or as Alinsky would put it, frame the presentation of a debate.

My point was that a totalitarian government (socialist, communist, fascist) doesn't change unless it is forced to change by military defeat. Russia is still totalitarian. They cut loose their support of the non productive parts of the old Soviet Union, focused their economic power on what was the most efficient to control and moved from a socialist society that claimed Marxism - Leninism as its core set of values to one that is a socialist society that claims corporate ideals as its core set of values which is more fascist in nature but then so is Putin. Darwin would applaud. They mutated to survive.

The system of government they used pre-July 1991 was communism.

Communism did NOT exist there after that time.

I can verify that first hand having witnessed it there in June 1992.

You listed three types of government - communism, socialism, fascism - and asked about an instance where one failed without a military battle. I gave you one.

Totalitarianism is NOT what is going on in Russia now. It is more authoritarianism as the people there do enjoy certain freedoms that were unthinkable pre-1991 and the political power centers around the main guy (Putin). Putin isn't worried about controlling the populace to the extreme that totalitarianism would engender. He just wants to stay in power and the education, arts, social aspects, etc of the rest of their society is pretty open. All of those things were controlled very carefully when they were communist.

I was alive through the whole damned cold war, studied communism from some of the sharpest minds on the subject in that one was the recorder for the House Un-American Activities Committee, another an Ambassador to Iran and Argentina, and the third an envoy to Taiwan. I know what Putin is and I know that even under some former Premiers that the arts were open, sports exalted, and that the former Soviet people had some freedom within their own country.

You can play semantics all you would like but substantively little has changed since Gorbachev. Most of the openness you describe was there prior to the fall of the Soviet Union was really simply a metamorphosis into just another socialist system.

I think now you just get off on thinking you are being clever by playing word games to wiggle out of spots where you simply can't admit you are wrong. And frankly that illustrates a attitude all to prevalent for a generation which thinks it knows things that they weren't even alive to witness, believes things they read instead of eye witness accounts, and has been so coddled by a leftist education system that pats them on the head when they regurgitate back the propaganda pablum they have been spoon fed, that they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the ass.

You can call a hot steaming pile feces, excrement, pooh, or crap. You can spray it with socialist perfume and mandate that the English word for sheisse never be uttered and you can mandate that from this time forward it will be called product of dog, but step in it and its the same old shite. The poor folks of Russia still step in the same old shite every morning. The only thing that has changed is the verbiage and the leader.

We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I doubt it will be many more years before you can travel state to state without papers. I'm happy to have been an American that could travel from James Bay to Cancun without papers. Those days are gone! When 5% of the people own 95% of the wealth you aren't free, and certainly not as free as you think.

Now teach that to those "young minds full of mush" (an homage) and maybe you'll be worth something. But if you think Russia has changed your still selling repackaged pooh!

You might have lived through times I didn't, but I went to the place we're talking about.

I can specifically remember at 15 years old realizing that the mindset of people who've been controlled is limited because when I would go to the traditional Russian grocery store with the woman I lived with. This was downtown, smack in the middle of Moscow on New Arbat Street.

They had a backwards way of going about their shopping:

First, you waited in line at the meat counter to tell the lady behind it how many kilos of beef you needed. She would then give you a chit with that written on it. Then you'd go to the cashier and stand in line there to present the chit to the cashier. You'd pay and then get another chit to take back to the meat counter where you'd wait in line again to hand the chit to the same lady behind the counter who would only then go get the meat you wanted. This was repeated step by step for each different kind of food you needed - dairy, fruit, vegetables, ever and anon.

When I told her how asinine this system was, she said this was simply how they did it. Keep in mind she had a college degree and spoke flawless English. She was an English teacher. Smart lady.

I tried a different tactic asking her why she didn't simply go to each section and get all of the chits to take to the cashier all together so that she could pay a single time and limit the amount of time that she spent going through that process over and over again. She literally couldn't understand what I meant. The logic didn't compute and her brain wouldn't allow her to jump to the most obvious conclusion for a way to beat the system. It wasn't that she was stupid. She, and all the rest of them then, had been conditioned to think that there was only one way to do things. Anecdotally, there was a "western" grocery store about half a mile down the street. I took her there one day and showed her the process of the normal way we all just grab what we need and go pay. It was like watching a kid see something for the first time.

Sure there was glastnost and perestroika during the 80's when Gorbachev was there. It was still a totalitarian state. It was still going through that when I was there in 92. Then again in 93. The next time I was there in 94, it had changed considerably. From what I understand from actual Russians that I talked to as recently as this past weekend, it's completely changed now.

Quote:We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I dont disagree with the above fwiw. You prove my point in that paragraph - they cant be totalitarian like they were, yet still at the same time now be ruled by Corporatists and also to have become capitalist by degree. The totalitarianism has fallen away almost completely there. It is still very much authoritarian.

I have a lot of respect for you JR. I mean that and I enjoy reading your posts. However, you make some stretches in logic in the above post about me. I was never the student that took what I was being taught in school at face value and was the thorn in almost every teacher's side. I question everything - myself especially. Think what you want about King King - but you dont know the person who you're addressing.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. When I am.

You didn't like my answer apparently, despite it being a verifiable answer. Russia is no longer communist. That's one of the systems of government you listed. I'm not wrong, despite all of your secondhand accounts of learning about communism from diplomats and government officials to countries other than communist ones.

(02-26-2021 02:34 PM)king king Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 09:37 AM)king king Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 04:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 03:52 PM)king king Wrote:  You just moved the goalpost.

I answered your original question with a fact.

We can argue the weeds of what is and what isn't a democratic Russia, however, when the USSR failed, Putin was a KGB guy in East Germany.

Putin and Russia today - and since he came into power - do not equal USSR--->Russia in July 1991.

No sir your so called fact was a lie. The system of government in the USSR vs the so called fall of the Soviet Union and rebirth of Russia did not end the totalitarianism of the first, it merely repackaged it in a way that was more economical for the state. To imply totalitarianism ended with the fall of the first because of semantics is propaganda.

You sir attempted to move the goalposts, not I, by claiming something that looks like a fact (the USSR failed) but which objective scrutiny reveals to be a canard, it is still totalitarian, is somehow an exception to my assertion. It is not. They did teach you that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is most likely a duck? Well the same thing applies to the goosestep.

What you did is to give a great of example of how the left lies by how they word, or as Alinsky would put it, frame the presentation of a debate.

My point was that a totalitarian government (socialist, communist, fascist) doesn't change unless it is forced to change by military defeat. Russia is still totalitarian. They cut loose their support of the non productive parts of the old Soviet Union, focused their economic power on what was the most efficient to control and moved from a socialist society that claimed Marxism - Leninism as its core set of values to one that is a socialist society that claims corporate ideals as its core set of values which is more fascist in nature but then so is Putin. Darwin would applaud. They mutated to survive.

The system of government they used pre-July 1991 was communism.

Communism did NOT exist there after that time.

I can verify that first hand having witnessed it there in June 1992.

You listed three types of government - communism, socialism, fascism - and asked about an instance where one failed without a military battle. I gave you one.

Totalitarianism is NOT what is going on in Russia now. It is more authoritarianism as the people there do enjoy certain freedoms that were unthinkable pre-1991 and the political power centers around the main guy (Putin). Putin isn't worried about controlling the populace to the extreme that totalitarianism would engender. He just wants to stay in power and the education, arts, social aspects, etc of the rest of their society is pretty open. All of those things were controlled very carefully when they were communist.

I was alive through the whole damned cold war, studied communism from some of the sharpest minds on the subject in that one was the recorder for the House Un-American Activities Committee, another an Ambassador to Iran and Argentina, and the third an envoy to Taiwan. I know what Putin is and I know that even under some former Premiers that the arts were open, sports exalted, and that the former Soviet people had some freedom within their own country.

You can play semantics all you would like but substantively little has changed since Gorbachev. Most of the openness you describe was there prior to the fall of the Soviet Union was really simply a metamorphosis into just another socialist system.

I think now you just get off on thinking you are being clever by playing word games to wiggle out of spots where you simply can't admit you are wrong. And frankly that illustrates a attitude all to prevalent for a generation which thinks it knows things that they weren't even alive to witness, believes things they read instead of eye witness accounts, and has been so coddled by a leftist education system that pats them on the head when they regurgitate back the propaganda pablum they have been spoon fed, that they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the ass.

You can call a hot steaming pile feces, excrement, pooh, or crap. You can spray it with socialist perfume and mandate that the English word for sheisse never be uttered and you can mandate that from this time forward it will be called product of dog, but step in it and its the same old shite. The poor folks of Russia still step in the same old shite every morning. The only thing that has changed is the verbiage and the leader.

We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I doubt it will be many more years before you can travel state to state without papers. I'm happy to have been an American that could travel from James Bay to Cancun without papers. Those days are gone! When 5% of the people own 95% of the wealth you aren't free, and certainly not as free as you think.

Now teach that to those "young minds full of mush" (an homage) and maybe you'll be worth something. But if you think Russia has changed your still selling repackaged pooh!

You might have lived through times I didn't, but I went to the place we're talking about.

I can specifically remember at 15 years old realizing that the mindset of people who've been controlled is limited because when I would go to the traditional Russian grocery store with the woman I lived with. This was downtown, smack in the middle of Moscow on New Arbat Street.

They had a backwards way of going about their shopping:

First, you waited in line at the meat counter to tell the lady behind it how many kilos of beef you needed. She would then give you a chit with that written on it. Then you'd go to the cashier and stand in line there to present the chit to the cashier. You'd pay and then get another chit to take back to the meat counter where you'd wait in line again to hand the chit to the same lady behind the counter who would only then go get the meat you wanted. This was repeated step by step for each different kind of food you needed - dairy, fruit, vegetables, ever and anon.

When I told her how asinine this system was, she said this was simply how they did it. Keep in mind she had a college degree and spoke flawless English. She was an English teacher. Smart lady.

I tried a different tactic asking her why she didn't simply go to each section and get all of the chits to take to the cashier all together so that she could pay a single time and limit the amount of time that she spent going through that process over and over again. She literally couldn't understand what I meant. The logic didn't compute and her brain wouldn't allow her to jump to the most obvious conclusion for a way to beat the system. It wasn't that she was stupid. She, and all the rest of them then, had been conditioned to think that there was only one way to do things. Anecdotally, there was a "western" grocery store about half a mile down the street. I took her there one day and showed her the process of the normal way we all just grab what we need and go pay. It was like watching a kid see something for the first time.

Sure there was glastnost and perestroika during the 80's when Gorbachev was there. It was still a totalitarian state. It was still going through that when I was there in 92. Then again in 93. The next time I was there in 94, it had changed considerably. From what I understand from actual Russians that I talked to as recently as this past weekend, it's completely changed now.

Quote:We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I dont disagree with the above fwiw. You prove my point in that paragraph - they cant be totalitarian like they were, yet still at the same time now be ruled by Corporatists and also to have become capitalist by degree. The totalitarianism has fallen away almost completely there. It is still very much authoritarian.

I have a lot of respect for you JR. I mean that and I enjoy reading your posts. However, you make some stretches in logic in the above post about me. I was never the student that took what I was being taught in school at face value and was the thorn in almost every teacher's side. I question everything - myself especially. Think what you want about King King - but you dont know the person who you're addressing.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. When I am.

You didn't like my answer apparently, despite it being a verifiable answer. Russia is no longer communist. That's one of the systems of government you listed. I'm not wrong, despite all of your secondhand accounts of learning about communism from diplomats and government officials to countries other than communist ones.

I didn't prove your point. They are still the same. So Mr Potato Head is now just Potato Head. Don't make me laugh. Changing a perception or changing by a degree does not change who they are. I don't care if you been there or not. I've met with Palestinians that doesn't make me an expert on Arafat. I've been to Holland, that doesn't mean I'm an expert on Rembrandt. I've known many people who have been there, been there officially, and who were intimately acquainted with their system and leaders. None of them thought anything substantive changed when they became just Russia again.

Your answer is not verifiable. It is your opinion. Google can say they changed but that is merely acknowledging a change in brand name after the changeover. If that is your proof try again. The issue here is discernment. In discernment you know an entity by what you see them do, not what they claim about themselves. I'm sure they put on a better face for foreigners since those who agree with Putin are a bit freer, and those who didn't are gone. It doesn't alter their espionage, their export of arms or advisors for insurgents. It doesn't alter their behavior or their oligarchy. It doesn't alter their influence in Syria. It hasn't changed their relations substantially with Europe. It is your opinion based on the face they put forward for you and nothing more. If we were free to quietly remove our dissidents we would appear happier as well, but alas a free society has plenty of them.

Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one. It is still totalitarian. Even Hitler put on a good show for tourists, especially for the Olympics. The only way you would know if it has changed is if you go there and join with those who dislike the regime and speak out. If you are deported it hasn't changed. If those who protested with you disappear, it hasn't changed. Outspoken critics of Putin receive umbrella pricks of cesium and die a most horrific death, even when on foreign soil, as in England. When that stops I'll be more inclined to give them a second glance.

As I've said nothing substantive has changed. It would take a military defeat to change it. Those countries who go down this path never have the freedom to throw off their shackles, ever, unless they have outside military help.

There is nobody in the world in a position to help us. We can't even start down this path. It should be anathema to every American. The fact that the public education system pushes their agenda, not only chills me, but it is why I'm outspoken for a regime change and the neutering of the NEA.

And for the record I'll take the second hand remarks of career diplomats and state department personnel over tourists observations every day and twice on Sunday.

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one.

I was in Sankt-Petersburg in the summer of 2017, and from what I saw that sounds pretty accurate. Tourists were definitely kept on a short leash, but the city seemed to have a lot more economic activity than I had associated with communist countries.

Not as free as Hong Kong was earlier that same year, though I would suspect that Hong Kong has tightened down quite a bit.

Also not nearly as free as Gdansk, our port immediately prior to Sankt-Petersburg. The Poles clearly love themselves some capitalism. There is a monument and museum to the shipyard workers revolt that led ultimately to the overthrow of communism. It is an incredibly moving experience. One interior wall in the museum is a mural composed of a blown-up photo of a student demonstration. It really brings it home to have a tour guide who lived through it say, "I wasn't there. I was afraid. But this guy right here [pointing] sat behind me in history class and that guy over there [pointing again] was my math professor."

(02-26-2021 03:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one.

I was in Sankt-Petersburg in the summer of 2017, and from what I saw that sounds pretty accurate. Tourists were definitely kept on a short leash, but the city seemed to have a lot more economic activity than I had associated with communist countries.

Not as free as Hong Kong was earlier that same year, though I would suspect that Hong Kong has tightened down quite a bit.

Also not nearly as free as Gdansk, our port immediately prior to Sankt-Petersburg. The Poles clearly love themselves some capitalism. There is a monument and museum to the shipyard workers revolt that led ultimately to the overthrow of communism. It is an incredibly moving experience. One interior wall in the museum is a mural composed of a blown-up photo of a student demonstration. It really brings it home to have a tour guide who lived through it say, "I wasn't there. I was afraid. But this guy right here [pointing] sat behind me in history class and that guy over there [pointing again] was my math professor."

Isn't it fitting that the Polish people won their freedom in a shipyard since the Potemkin was the mutiny that was conflated into fuel for the Russian Revolution.

(02-26-2021 03:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one.

I was in Sankt-Petersburg in the summer of 2017, and from what I saw that sounds pretty accurate. Tourists were definitely kept on a short leash, but the city seemed to have a lot more economic activity than I had associated with communist countries.
Not as free as Hong Kong was earlier that same year, though I would suspect that Hong Kong has tightened down quite a bit.
Also not nearly as free as Gdansk, our port immediately prior to Sankt-Petersburg. The Poles clearly love themselves some capitalism. There is a monument and museum to the shipyard workers revolt that led ultimately to the overthrow of communism. It is an incredibly moving experience. One interior wall in the museum is a mural composed of a blown-up photo of a student demonstration. It really brings it home to have a tour guide who lived through it say, "I wasn't there. I was afraid. But this guy right here [pointing] sat behind me in history class and that guy over there [pointing again] was my math professor."

Isn't it fitting that the Polish people won their freedom in a shipyard since the Potemkin was the mutiny that was conflated into fuel for the Russian Revolution.

I've now been there twice, once before the museum opened, when it was just the monument, and second time, to tour the museum after it opened. Both times it was an incredibly moving experience. The Poles know what communism was like, and they know what capitalism is like, and they know which one they like better.

(02-26-2021 03:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one.

I was in Sankt-Petersburg in the summer of 2017, and from what I saw that sounds pretty accurate. Tourists were definitely kept on a short leash, but the city seemed to have a lot more economic activity than I had associated with communist countries.
Not as free as Hong Kong was earlier that same year, though I would suspect that Hong Kong has tightened down quite a bit.
Also not nearly as free as Gdansk, our port immediately prior to Sankt-Petersburg. The Poles clearly love themselves some capitalism. There is a monument and museum to the shipyard workers revolt that led ultimately to the overthrow of communism. It is an incredibly moving experience. One interior wall in the museum is a mural composed of a blown-up photo of a student demonstration. It really brings it home to have a tour guide who lived through it say, "I wasn't there. I was afraid. But this guy right here [pointing] sat behind me in history class and that guy over there [pointing again] was my math professor."

Isn't it fitting that the Polish people won their freedom in a shipyard since the Potemkin was the mutiny that was conflated into fuel for the Russian Revolution.

I've now been there twice, once before the museum opened, when it was just the monument, and second time, to tour the museum after it opened. Both times it was an incredibly moving experience. The Poles know what communism was like, and they know what capitalism is like, and they know which one they like better.

And those good people should never forget how Churchill sold them out to make a deal with Stalin. What they did to fight both Stalin and Hitler and to be sacrificed for British influence in Southern Europe was a cross they should never have been required to bear!

(02-26-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And those good people should never forget how Churchill sold them out to make a deal with Stalin. What they did to fight both Stalin and Hitler and to be sacrificed for British influence in Southern Europe was a cross they should never have been required to bear!

I'm not sure Churchill had any leverage. I tend to think he had none. The British Empire was collapsing, and FDR was pretty much out of it. In that situation he was just scrambling to get anything that he could out of it. I would tend to blame FDR for not standing stronger, because he was the one who had chips to play with.

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 02:34 PM)king king Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 09:37 AM)king king Wrote:  

(02-25-2021 04:02 PM)JRsec Wrote:  No sir your so called fact was a lie. The system of government in the USSR vs the so called fall of the Soviet Union and rebirth of Russia did not end the totalitarianism of the first, it merely repackaged it in a way that was more economical for the state. To imply totalitarianism ended with the fall of the first because of semantics is propaganda.

You sir attempted to move the goalposts, not I, by claiming something that looks like a fact (the USSR failed) but which objective scrutiny reveals to be a canard, it is still totalitarian, is somehow an exception to my assertion. It is not. They did teach you that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is most likely a duck? Well the same thing applies to the goosestep.

What you did is to give a great of example of how the left lies by how they word, or as Alinsky would put it, frame the presentation of a debate.

My point was that a totalitarian government (socialist, communist, fascist) doesn't change unless it is forced to change by military defeat. Russia is still totalitarian. They cut loose their support of the non productive parts of the old Soviet Union, focused their economic power on what was the most efficient to control and moved from a socialist society that claimed Marxism - Leninism as its core set of values to one that is a socialist society that claims corporate ideals as its core set of values which is more fascist in nature but then so is Putin. Darwin would applaud. They mutated to survive.

The system of government they used pre-July 1991 was communism.

Communism did NOT exist there after that time.

I can verify that first hand having witnessed it there in June 1992.

You listed three types of government - communism, socialism, fascism - and asked about an instance where one failed without a military battle. I gave you one.

Totalitarianism is NOT what is going on in Russia now. It is more authoritarianism as the people there do enjoy certain freedoms that were unthinkable pre-1991 and the political power centers around the main guy (Putin). Putin isn't worried about controlling the populace to the extreme that totalitarianism would engender. He just wants to stay in power and the education, arts, social aspects, etc of the rest of their society is pretty open. All of those things were controlled very carefully when they were communist.

I was alive through the whole damned cold war, studied communism from some of the sharpest minds on the subject in that one was the recorder for the House Un-American Activities Committee, another an Ambassador to Iran and Argentina, and the third an envoy to Taiwan. I know what Putin is and I know that even under some former Premiers that the arts were open, sports exalted, and that the former Soviet people had some freedom within their own country.

You can play semantics all you would like but substantively little has changed since Gorbachev. Most of the openness you describe was there prior to the fall of the Soviet Union was really simply a metamorphosis into just another socialist system.

I think now you just get off on thinking you are being clever by playing word games to wiggle out of spots where you simply can't admit you are wrong. And frankly that illustrates a attitude all to prevalent for a generation which thinks it knows things that they weren't even alive to witness, believes things they read instead of eye witness accounts, and has been so coddled by a leftist education system that pats them on the head when they regurgitate back the propaganda pablum they have been spoon fed, that they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the ass.

You can call a hot steaming pile feces, excrement, pooh, or crap. You can spray it with socialist perfume and mandate that the English word for sheisse never be uttered and you can mandate that from this time forward it will be called product of dog, but step in it and its the same old shite. The poor folks of Russia still step in the same old shite every morning. The only thing that has changed is the verbiage and the leader.

We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I doubt it will be many more years before you can travel state to state without papers. I'm happy to have been an American that could travel from James Bay to Cancun without papers. Those days are gone! When 5% of the people own 95% of the wealth you aren't free, and certainly not as free as you think.

Now teach that to those "young minds full of mush" (an homage) and maybe you'll be worth something. But if you think Russia has changed your still selling repackaged pooh!

You might have lived through times I didn't, but I went to the place we're talking about.

I can specifically remember at 15 years old realizing that the mindset of people who've been controlled is limited because when I would go to the traditional Russian grocery store with the woman I lived with. This was downtown, smack in the middle of Moscow on New Arbat Street.

They had a backwards way of going about their shopping:

First, you waited in line at the meat counter to tell the lady behind it how many kilos of beef you needed. She would then give you a chit with that written on it. Then you'd go to the cashier and stand in line there to present the chit to the cashier. You'd pay and then get another chit to take back to the meat counter where you'd wait in line again to hand the chit to the same lady behind the counter who would only then go get the meat you wanted. This was repeated step by step for each different kind of food you needed - dairy, fruit, vegetables, ever and anon.

When I told her how asinine this system was, she said this was simply how they did it. Keep in mind she had a college degree and spoke flawless English. She was an English teacher. Smart lady.

I tried a different tactic asking her why she didn't simply go to each section and get all of the chits to take to the cashier all together so that she could pay a single time and limit the amount of time that she spent going through that process over and over again. She literally couldn't understand what I meant. The logic didn't compute and her brain wouldn't allow her to jump to the most obvious conclusion for a way to beat the system. It wasn't that she was stupid. She, and all the rest of them then, had been conditioned to think that there was only one way to do things. Anecdotally, there was a "western" grocery store about half a mile down the street. I took her there one day and showed her the process of the normal way we all just grab what we need and go pay. It was like watching a kid see something for the first time.

Sure there was glastnost and perestroika during the 80's when Gorbachev was there. It was still a totalitarian state. It was still going through that when I was there in 92. Then again in 93. The next time I was there in 94, it had changed considerably. From what I understand from actual Russians that I talked to as recently as this past weekend, it's completely changed now.

Quote:We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I dont disagree with the above fwiw. You prove my point in that paragraph - they cant be totalitarian like they were, yet still at the same time now be ruled by Corporatists and also to have become capitalist by degree. The totalitarianism has fallen away almost completely there. It is still very much authoritarian.

I have a lot of respect for you JR. I mean that and I enjoy reading your posts. However, you make some stretches in logic in the above post about me. I was never the student that took what I was being taught in school at face value and was the thorn in almost every teacher's side. I question everything - myself especially. Think what you want about King King - but you dont know the person who you're addressing.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. When I am.

You didn't like my answer apparently, despite it being a verifiable answer. Russia is no longer communist. That's one of the systems of government you listed. I'm not wrong, despite all of your secondhand accounts of learning about communism from diplomats and government officials to countries other than communist ones.

I didn't prove your point. They are still the same. So Mr Potato Head is now just Potato Head. Don't make me laugh. Changing a perception or changing by a degree does not change who they are. I don't care if you been there or not. I've met with Palestinians that doesn't make me an expert on Arafat. I've been to Holland, that doesn't mean I'm an expert on Rembrandt. I've known many people who have been there, been there officially, and who were intimately acquainted with their system and leaders. None of them thought anything substantive changed when they became just Russia again.

Your answer is not verifiable. It is your opinion. Google can say they changed but that is merely acknowledging a change in brand name after the changeover. If that is your proof try again. The issue here is discernment. In discernment you know an entity by what you see them do, not what they claim about themselves. I'm sure they put on a better face for foreigners since those who agree with Putin are a bit freer, and those who didn't are gone. It doesn't alter their espionage, their export of arms or advisors for insurgents. It doesn't alter their behavior or their oligarchy. It doesn't alter their influence in Syria. It hasn't changed their relations substantially with Europe. It is your opinion based on the face they put forward for you and nothing more. If we were free to quietly remove our dissidents we would appear happier as well, but alas a free society has plenty of them.

Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one. It is still totalitarian. Even Hitler put on a good show for tourists, especially for the Olympics. The only way you would know if it has changed is if you go there and join with those who dislike the regime and speak out. If you are deported it hasn't changed. If those who protested with you disappear, it hasn't changed. Outspoken critics of Putin receive umbrella pricks of cesium and die a most horrific death, even when on foreign soil, as in England. When that stops I'll be more inclined to give them a second glance.

As I've said nothing substantive has changed. It would take a military defeat to change it. Those countries who go down this path never have the freedom to throw off their shackles, ever, unless they have outside military help.

There is nobody in the world in a position to help us. We can't even start down this path. It should be anathema to every American. The fact that the public education system pushes their agenda, not only chills me, but it is why I'm outspoken for a regime change and the neutering of the NEA.

And for the record I'll take the second hand remarks of career diplomats and state department personnel over tourists observations every day and twice on Sunday.

Is Russia a communist country?

Do the people that work there receive wages from the government or from private businesses?

Does a system of real estate buying and selling exist there that is NOT dependent on the state?

Is party affiliation required?

The US engages in every single one of the things you mentioned - espionage, arms sales, waging proxy wars in the ME.

Those things don't MAKE a country's form of government.

We can agree to disagree here. I dont have to Google anything to know based on any real observation that Russia is not a communist country any longer. And not much in the way of the military was required to get it from Communist to what it is now.

I dont know what would actually qualify someone to just be a tourist there, but I spent many months there living in a Russian home, eating Russian food, watching Russian TV, talking in Russian to Russian grandfathers and grandmothers who know a whole helluva lot more about what Russia went through in WW1 and WW2 than you or any US gubment official, and whom were extremely grateful that it had made it to where it had.

I will take their word for it.

Good day.

I live in Florida in a primarily Republican neighborhood. The local public school only caters to this neighborhood. My son just studied Lewis and Clark... except they really weren’t mentioned. Instead it was all about Sagagawea. There is no balance. My 8 year old was forced to do a report on a great African American this month. He did it... but Columbus has been completely excused from his school curriculum. The kids were forced to present on Obama. If my wife and I speak up we are racist. My son has one black girl in his class she is the only one in class who didn’t do the report. The teacher just said she gets a pass. What the fvck lessons are these kids learning?

A whole new generation of American kids is being brainwashed. We are losing future generations to the progressive mindhive.

(02-26-2021 03:57 PM)king king Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 02:34 PM)king king Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 09:37 AM)king king Wrote:  The system of government they used pre-July 1991 was communism.

Communism did NOT exist there after that time.

I can verify that first hand having witnessed it there in June 1992.

You listed three types of government - communism, socialism, fascism - and asked about an instance where one failed without a military battle. I gave you one.

Totalitarianism is NOT what is going on in Russia now. It is more authoritarianism as the people there do enjoy certain freedoms that were unthinkable pre-1991 and the political power centers around the main guy (Putin). Putin isn't worried about controlling the populace to the extreme that totalitarianism would engender. He just wants to stay in power and the education, arts, social aspects, etc of the rest of their society is pretty open. All of those things were controlled very carefully when they were communist.

I was alive through the whole damned cold war, studied communism from some of the sharpest minds on the subject in that one was the recorder for the House Un-American Activities Committee, another an Ambassador to Iran and Argentina, and the third an envoy to Taiwan. I know what Putin is and I know that even under some former Premiers that the arts were open, sports exalted, and that the former Soviet people had some freedom within their own country.

You can play semantics all you would like but substantively little has changed since Gorbachev. Most of the openness you describe was there prior to the fall of the Soviet Union was really simply a metamorphosis into just another socialist system.

I think now you just get off on thinking you are being clever by playing word games to wiggle out of spots where you simply can't admit you are wrong. And frankly that illustrates a attitude all to prevalent for a generation which thinks it knows things that they weren't even alive to witness, believes things they read instead of eye witness accounts, and has been so coddled by a leftist education system that pats them on the head when they regurgitate back the propaganda pablum they have been spoon fed, that they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them in the ass.

You can call a hot steaming pile feces, excrement, pooh, or crap. You can spray it with socialist perfume and mandate that the English word for sheisse never be uttered and you can mandate that from this time forward it will be called product of dog, but step in it and its the same old shite. The poor folks of Russia still step in the same old shite every morning. The only thing that has changed is the verbiage and the leader.

We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I doubt it will be many more years before you can travel state to state without papers. I'm happy to have been an American that could travel from James Bay to Cancun without papers. Those days are gone! When 5% of the people own 95% of the wealth you aren't free, and certainly not as free as you think.

Now teach that to those "young minds full of mush" (an homage) and maybe you'll be worth something. But if you think Russia has changed your still selling repackaged pooh!

You might have lived through times I didn't, but I went to the place we're talking about.

I can specifically remember at 15 years old realizing that the mindset of people who've been controlled is limited because when I would go to the traditional Russian grocery store with the woman I lived with. This was downtown, smack in the middle of Moscow on New Arbat Street.

They had a backwards way of going about their shopping:

First, you waited in line at the meat counter to tell the lady behind it how many kilos of beef you needed. She would then give you a chit with that written on it. Then you'd go to the cashier and stand in line there to present the chit to the cashier. You'd pay and then get another chit to take back to the meat counter where you'd wait in line again to hand the chit to the same lady behind the counter who would only then go get the meat you wanted. This was repeated step by step for each different kind of food you needed - dairy, fruit, vegetables, ever and anon.

When I told her how asinine this system was, she said this was simply how they did it. Keep in mind she had a college degree and spoke flawless English. She was an English teacher. Smart lady.

I tried a different tactic asking her why she didn't simply go to each section and get all of the chits to take to the cashier all together so that she could pay a single time and limit the amount of time that she spent going through that process over and over again. She literally couldn't understand what I meant. The logic didn't compute and her brain wouldn't allow her to jump to the most obvious conclusion for a way to beat the system. It wasn't that she was stupid. She, and all the rest of them then, had been conditioned to think that there was only one way to do things. Anecdotally, there was a "western" grocery store about half a mile down the street. I took her there one day and showed her the process of the normal way we all just grab what we need and go pay. It was like watching a kid see something for the first time.

Sure there was glastnost and perestroika during the 80's when Gorbachev was there. It was still a totalitarian state. It was still going through that when I was there in 92. Then again in 93. The next time I was there in 94, it had changed considerably. From what I understand from actual Russians that I talked to as recently as this past weekend, it's completely changed now.

Quote:We once thought that they would become capitalistic by degree over time and they thought we would become socialistic by degree over time, and both were true, but we are still the same countries with the same problems. Only now the Corporatists are in both. But we are slipping more into their way of life at a faster pace now than they are become like we were even 20 years ago.

I dont disagree with the above fwiw. You prove my point in that paragraph - they cant be totalitarian like they were, yet still at the same time now be ruled by Corporatists and also to have become capitalist by degree. The totalitarianism has fallen away almost completely there. It is still very much authoritarian.

I have a lot of respect for you JR. I mean that and I enjoy reading your posts. However, you make some stretches in logic in the above post about me. I was never the student that took what I was being taught in school at face value and was the thorn in almost every teacher's side. I question everything - myself especially. Think what you want about King King - but you dont know the person who you're addressing.

I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. When I am.

You didn't like my answer apparently, despite it being a verifiable answer. Russia is no longer communist. That's one of the systems of government you listed. I'm not wrong, despite all of your secondhand accounts of learning about communism from diplomats and government officials to countries other than communist ones.

I didn't prove your point. They are still the same. So Mr Potato Head is now just Potato Head. Don't make me laugh. Changing a perception or changing by a degree does not change who they are. I don't care if you been there or not. I've met with Palestinians that doesn't make me an expert on Arafat. I've been to Holland, that doesn't mean I'm an expert on Rembrandt. I've known many people who have been there, been there officially, and who were intimately acquainted with their system and leaders. None of them thought anything substantive changed when they became just Russia again.

Your answer is not verifiable. It is your opinion. Google can say they changed but that is merely acknowledging a change in brand name after the changeover. If that is your proof try again. The issue here is discernment. In discernment you know an entity by what you see them do, not what they claim about themselves. I'm sure they put on a better face for foreigners since those who agree with Putin are a bit freer, and those who didn't are gone. It doesn't alter their espionage, their export of arms or advisors for insurgents. It doesn't alter their behavior or their oligarchy. It doesn't alter their influence in Syria. It hasn't changed their relations substantially with Europe. It is your opinion based on the face they put forward for you and nothing more. If we were free to quietly remove our dissidents we would appear happier as well, but alas a free society has plenty of them.

Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one. It is still totalitarian. Even Hitler put on a good show for tourists, especially for the Olympics. The only way you would know if it has changed is if you go there and join with those who dislike the regime and speak out. If you are deported it hasn't changed. If those who protested with you disappear, it hasn't changed. Outspoken critics of Putin receive umbrella pricks of cesium and die a most horrific death, even when on foreign soil, as in England. When that stops I'll be more inclined to give them a second glance.

As I've said nothing substantive has changed. It would take a military defeat to change it. Those countries who go down this path never have the freedom to throw off their shackles, ever, unless they have outside military help.

There is nobody in the world in a position to help us. We can't even start down this path. It should be anathema to every American. The fact that the public education system pushes their agenda, not only chills me, but it is why I'm outspoken for a regime change and the neutering of the NEA.

And for the record I'll take the second hand remarks of career diplomats and state department personnel over tourists observations every day and twice on Sunday.

Is Russia a communist country?

Do the people that work there receive wages from the government or from private businesses?

Does a system of real estate buying and selling exist there that is NOT dependent on the state?

Is party affiliation required?

The US engages in every single one of the things you mentioned - espionage, arms sales, waging proxy wars in the ME.

Those things don't MAKE a country's form of government.

We can agree to disagree here. I dont have to Google anything to know based on any real observation that Russia is not a communist country any longer. And not much in the way of the military was required to get it from Communist to what it is now.

I dont know what would actually qualify someone to just be a tourist there, but I spent many months there living in a Russian home, eating Russian food, watching Russian TV, talking in Russian to Russian grandfathers and grandmothers who know a whole helluva lot more about what Russia went through in WW1 and WW2 than you or any US gubment official, and whom were extremely grateful that it had made it to where it had.

I will take their word for it.

Good day.

1. The Soviet Union was never truly a communist country. True communism has never existed. It's all a degree of socialism one way or the other. Whether their paychecks come from a government source, or as in the old USSR a government owned industry, or whether they come now from a company with a name that is permitted to operate by the government is irrelevant. And money makes small daily commerce possible and much more efficient than government grocery stores which were an embarrassment to Khrushchev.

2. I'm glad you got to stay at a Commie-day Inn last night. Seriously traveling anywhere is a decent education if you spend more time there as a tourist. But families I've known that were close to associations in the Third Reich with the Nazi leadership still didn't know everything about their history until well after the war. And they were close not by choice but by command, and because of who they were in Austria. So while that gives you a better sense of the people it does not necessarily offer any substantive insight into a regime, anymore than people in the U.S. truly know what goes on in Washington.

3. None of this addresses the fact that Putin is still very totalitarian in terms of personal power or how that impacts those who disagree with him, and do so publicly.

4. None of that alters the premise I laid out.

But have a good day and dig a little deeper into everything. You'll be surprised what you find in the archives of libraries that refutes what is on the current shelves.

(02-26-2021 03:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And those good people should never forget how Churchill sold them out to make a deal with Stalin. What they did to fight both Stalin and Hitler and to be sacrificed for British influence in Southern Europe was a cross they should never have been required to bear!

I'm not sure Churchill had any leverage. I tend to think he had none. The British Empire was collapsing, and FDR was pretty much out of it. In that situation he was just scrambling to get anything that he could out of it. I would tend to blame FDR for not standing stronger, because he was the one who had chips to play with.

I do agree FDR was out of it. Harry Dexter White was likely a mole and did none of us any good in FDR's stead. Churchill needed to be more forceful but he took the easy way out.

(02-26-2021 04:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And those good people should never forget how Churchill sold them out to make a deal with Stalin. What they did to fight both Stalin and Hitler and to be sacrificed for British influence in Southern Europe was a cross they should never have been required to bear!

I'm not sure Churchill had any leverage. I tend to think he had none. The British Empire was collapsing, and FDR was pretty much out of it. In that situation he was just scrambling to get anything that he could out of it. I would tend to blame FDR for not standing stronger, because he was the one who had chips to play with.

I do agree FDR was out of it. Harry Dexter White was likely a mole and did none of us any good in FDR's stead. Churchill needed to be more forceful but he took the easy way out.

I tend to think it's more a case that he took the only way out. At that point what was left of the British Empire couldn't take on the Soviet Union directly, and FDR was at best wishy-washy about any US commitment. I think he took what he could get, and tried to make the best of a bad situation.

(02-26-2021 03:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And those good people should never forget how Churchill sold them out to make a deal with Stalin. What they did to fight both Stalin and Hitler and to be sacrificed for British influence in Southern Europe was a cross they should never have been required to bear!

I'm not sure Churchill had any leverage. I tend to think he had none. The British Empire was collapsing, and FDR was pretty much out of it. In that situation he was just scrambling to get anything that he could out of it. I would tend to blame FDR for not standing stronger, because he was the one who had chips to play with.

I think that's a fair assessment. I think you could argue that the balance of power amongst the Allies started to shift away from the British as early the invasion of Sicily and mainland Italy. Churchill couldn't do much by the end.

(02-26-2021 04:49 PM)ArmyBlazer Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:57 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  And those good people should never forget how Churchill sold them out to make a deal with Stalin. What they did to fight both Stalin and Hitler and to be sacrificed for British influence in Southern Europe was a cross they should never have been required to bear!

I'm not sure Churchill had any leverage. I tend to think he had none. The British Empire was collapsing, and FDR was pretty much out of it. In that situation he was just scrambling to get anything that he could out of it. I would tend to blame FDR for not standing stronger, because he was the one who had chips to play with.

I think that's a fair assessment. I think you could argue that the balance of power amongst the Allies started to shift away from the British as early the invasion of Sicily and mainland Italy. Churchill couldn't do much by the end.

Remember that by the time we got in, UK had already been fighting for two years. So we fought 4 and they fought 6. And they got their home soil bombed pretty regularly and also took some pretty heavy losses in the Far East early on. Plus by the end of the war, Russian troops were already occupying most of the area behind what came to be the Iron Curtain. He or we would ave had to evict them forcibly, and I just don't think there was any appetite to take that on.

Truman (perhaps the quintessential neocon) bribed up an alliance across Europe to stop the Soviets, and 4 decades later Reagan figured out how to put enough pressure other economy to crater it.

(02-26-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:31 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Putin is the head of a socialist system acting like a fascist one.

I was in Sankt-Petersburg in the summer of 2017, and from what I saw that sounds pretty accurate. Tourists were definitely kept on a short leash, but the city seemed to have a lot more economic activity than I had associated with communist countries.
Not as free as Hong Kong was earlier that same year, though I would suspect that Hong Kong has tightened down quite a bit.
Also not nearly as free as Gdansk, our port immediately prior to Sankt-Petersburg. The Poles clearly love themselves some capitalism. There is a monument and museum to the shipyard workers revolt that led ultimately to the overthrow of communism. It is an incredibly moving experience. One interior wall in the museum is a mural composed of a blown-up photo of a student demonstration. It really brings it home to have a tour guide who lived through it say, "I wasn't there. I was afraid. But this guy right here [pointing] sat behind me in history class and that guy over there [pointing again] was my math professor."

Isn't it fitting that the Polish people won their freedom in a shipyard since the Potemkin was the mutiny that was conflated into fuel for the Russian Revolution.

I've now been there twice, once before the museum opened, when it was just the monument, and second time, to tour the museum after it opened. Both times it was an incredibly moving experience. The Poles know what communism was like, and they know what capitalism is like, and they know which one they like better.

And those good people should never forget how Churchill sold them out to make a deal with Stalin. What they did to fight both Stalin and Hitler and to be sacrificed for British influence in Southern Europe was a cross they should never have been required to bear!

James A Michener wrote a really great historical fiction novel about Poland called Poland.

Poland is the Afghanistan of Europe. They've borne the brunt of Germany and Russia fighting over what's between them for centuries. I really want to go there the next time I travel to Europe. Had some friends that lived in Warsaw and Gdansk, and they loved it.