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2020 CFB Coaches Fired
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monarx Online
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Post: #21
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
(01-04-2021 10:39 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:32 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:28 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:27 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:11 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Geez. Any particular reason for this?

I don't agree about his ways of going about things (taking non qualifiers), but the guy seems like a great coach and wins plenty of games.

This is what it looks like when you are committed to elevating your program. Plateau = Time for change.

Why do you think Marshall platued?

They have been at or around the same level for most of the last decade. That is pretty much the definition of plateau.

What would the next step be for them?

For Marshall? More frequent Top 25 rankings and an Access Bowl appearance.
01-04-2021 11:05 AM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
It could be a plateau or it could be a ceiling. I guess we will see.
01-04-2021 11:34 AM
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Monarchblue Offline
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Post: #23
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
(01-04-2021 11:34 AM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  It could be a plateau or it could be a ceiling. I guess we will see.

That could be true, but I don't believe it is beneficial at all for athletic departments to accept the idea that their programs have a ceiling. I think ODU, in some ways, is suffering from exactly that mindset right now.
01-04-2021 11:47 AM
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Gilesfan Online
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Post: #24
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
(01-04-2021 10:49 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:39 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:32 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:28 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 10:27 AM)Monarchblue Wrote:  This is what it looks like when you are committed to elevating your program. Plateau = Time for change.

Why do you think Marshall platued?

They have been at or around the same level for most of the last decade. That is pretty much the definition of plateau.

What would the next step be for them?

Getting better. It is really as simple as that. My philosophy on coaching changes is simpler than putting a number of a wins or milestones on success. It is simply, are we growing and getting better as a program. If the answer is a clear no, then it is time to make the next move. That will eventually lead to some downturns like ECU, but over the long haul, I believe that if you maintain that approach, and are pretty decent at hiring, you will find yourself in a better place than you would if you stick with the same coach who has done pretty well for the last 10 years, but has stopped getting better.

You are going to have peaks and valleys, it's unreasonable to assume a team will get better every single year. So, do we make a change at every point where a season wasn't as good as the previous season?

As for Marshall, here is their F +/- starting in 2020:

43
70
57
54
120
58
17
52
91
77

I didn't watch a game so I don't know what happened this year other than them losing CUSA title game. But, he really has built that program up over the years and this shortened season looks like one of their best ever. Maybe it works out better for them, I don't think the odds are in their favor.
01-04-2021 12:32 PM
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ODU AGGIE Offline
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Post: #25
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
When you are plateaued at the top, it is not a bad thing. He won 63% of his games, had 8 of 11 winning seasons, had three East Championships and one conference title, had one final Top 25 ranking, went to eight bowl games and won six of them, was named the CUSA coach of the year one time and had wins over Maryland, Purdue, and Louisville. If you stop to think about it (at least in my opinion), having this kind of success at a school in Huntington, West Virginia is actually quite phenomenal.
01-04-2021 12:55 PM
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Monarchblue Offline
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Post: #26
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
(01-04-2021 12:55 PM)ODU AGGIE Wrote:  When you are plateaued at the top, it is not a bad thing. He won 63% of his games, had 8 of 11 winning seasons, had three East Championships and one conference title, had one final Top 25 ranking, went to eight bowl games and won six of them, was named the CUSA coach of the year one time and had wins over Maryland, Purdue, and Louisville. If you stop to think about it (at least in my opinion), having this kind of success at a school in Huntington, West Virginia is actually quite phenomenal.

So where there are is where they should hang out forever and everyone should just be happy with that? You have to aspire to be better. Accepting the status quo as being "plateaued at the top" is a bit of a presumption. They are not at the top of what a G5 football program can be, so I would not say they are at the top. Accepting some artificial ceiling is to do exactly what ODU has done with its basketball program. You just resign yourself to some cap on your program, and then you watch the goalpost slip incrementally lower until you look up and your program is a shell of what it used to be. Unless you are Alabama, you have not "plateaued at the top" and I would bet that even Nick Saban would tell you that they need to get better every year or they will lose their position at the top.
01-04-2021 01:03 PM
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ODUalum78 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
I posted this back in early December. I wondered why no one remarked on it

(12-06-2020 02:35 AM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  
(12-06-2020 12:20 AM)monarx Wrote:  
(12-06-2020 12:15 AM)jaybird44 Wrote:  I'm watching coastal have a dream year. I see vcu basketball and george Mason make it to final four. I really want that for odu. I have lived and died with them for 43 years. The university is a class organization and has wonderful fans. I can't wait to see us catch lightning in a bottle. Odu has come a long way and I feel like we haven't scratched the surface yet on what our athletic achievements can be. I hope to see it. Beating virginia tech a couple of years ago has spoiled me a bit, but I can't help it, I've fallen in love with odu sports and I want nothing but the best.

Same. I thought if any of the recent move up had a chance to be in the top 25 by now it would have been us. Instead, App, CCU and LU have been ranked, and even Charlotte and GSU go to more bowl games. I cant quite figure out how we let that happen.

Tough call EARLY on for the admin. How do you replace a head coach that had been almost deified by so many.
But....the signs were there very early.

As far as defense was concerned. I believe that the Bill Dee experiment should have been the first major red flag as to BWs inability to recognize what was needed in a Coordinator. (2012)
Then, at least for me, the UMD game was really the first time I realized that our vanilla offensive scheme, and an inability to even try to make any sort of in-game adjustment whatsoever, (w/o a comprehensive run attack and NOTHING in the middle) was the second red flag. It was a P5, and we would likely have lost anyway, so many people didn't notice or overlooked the details.

The Shuler Bentley fiasco was the third red flag, with David Washington admittedly being one of the few times we were able to make a viable adjustment on either side of the ball. This head scratching scenario was repeated almost identically with SW/BL later on.

2017 was a season, based on recruits, what should have been our best yet in FBS, but it was pretty much a disaster. We continued with the SB mentality by throwing Williams to the dogs too soon.
However, the final straw for me was the management of the Liberty game and what it said about our preparation for the 2018 season as a whole. Had there been a qualified assistant, we should have, IMHO, made an in-season change immediately after that game.

(Underlying all of this was a seeming inability to develop a consistent offensive line since 2013, and a general weakness in recruiting at FBS)

So....
Hindsight is great, and we probably should have strongly considered a change right after the UNC game in 2013. Unfortunately, that would have been a PR nightmare.
However, a more realistic scenario would have been to to make the change right after the 2017 season, but we didn't.

Marshall is facing the same dilemma right now.

BW stayed at ODU for longer than he should have (IMO), based in part on his cumulative numbers.
For all intents and purposes, Holliday lost his team almost completely in 2016. It was remarkable that he actually seemed to get it back in subsequent seasons, but, IMHO, without the punch-you-in-the-mouth swagger of previous decades.

In any event, Marshall should always be at or near that "plateau" because it is usually in the top 1 or 2 in CUSA recruiting rankings and it accepts non qualifiers; and while those players cannot get aid, practice, or play until they HAVE qualified... (See UNC), it is a way to enhance your talent dramatically.

Bottom line, I think 2016 was a red flag for Doc, and I think even though they have since had winning seasons, the lack of intensity since then has been a red flag.
And...the Herd's recruiting rank in CUSA is 13th for 2020.
01-04-2021 02:52 PM
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ODU AGGIE Offline
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Post: #28
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
You know something is odorous when the decision did not come from the school president or athletic director, but from the Governor and the school board of Trustees.

https://www.si.com/college/2021/01/04/do...ont-return
01-04-2021 03:51 PM
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Gilesfan Online
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Post: #29
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
Congrats Coach, you are named Coach of the Year. But go ahead and pack that trophy away bc you are gone.
01-04-2021 04:36 PM
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monarx Online
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Post: #30
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
https://www.espn.com/college-football/in...ve-group-5

Interesting article about coaching vacancies in the G5 and the perception of various teams. We get lumped into tier 4 which is probably fair at this point. We should strive to be a solid tier 3 ASAP (maybe Rhane gets us there), but our record is who we are for now. Tier 2 should be where ODU strives to be within a decade IMO.

They break down the G5 into 5 tiers described as the following:

Tier 1 jobs: Financial backing for coaches' salaries, support staff and facilities projects; no major barriers in access to top recruits; consistent league title contenders that regularly target New Year's Six bowls; history of wins against Power 5 (recent or long term); strong local or regional fan support; Power 5 expansion candidates. (Boise, Houston, UCF, Cincy)

Tier 2 jobs: Solid footing with finances, facilities and support; access to good regional recruiting areas; competes often for league championships, regularly makes bowls and occasionally challenges for the New Year's Six; some history of wins against the Power 5 (recent or long term); solid local or regional fan base. (BYU, Memphis, Navy, San Diego State, SMU, South Florida, Temple)

Tier 3 jobs: Some resource or location limitations but enough to make bowl games consistently and challenge for conference titles; a restricted but decent recruiting pool of regional or national prospects; a rare New Year's Six appearance is the ceiling; not a realistic candidate for Power 5 expansion. (Air Force, Appalachian State, Arkansas State, Central Michigan, Colorado State, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Fresno State, Georgia Southern, Louisiana, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Miami (Ohio), Northern Illinois, North Texas, Ohio, Southern Miss, Toledo, Western Michigan, Wyoming)

Tier 4 jobs: Moderate challenges with finances, facilities or program support; requires a unique approach in recruiting to compete with upper-tier teams in their leagues; bowl eligibility is a realistic goal most seasons, with some 10-win seasons from time to time; not much sustained history of success. (Army, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Charlotte, Florida International, Georgia State, Hawaii, Liberty, Middle Tennessee, Nevada, New Mexico, Old Dominion, Troy, Tulane, Tulsa, UAB, UConn, UNLV, Utah State, Western Kentucky)

Tier 5 jobs: Significant challenges with infrastructure, support, facilities and/or location; restricted recruiting and/or fan base (regional or national); a place where bowl eligibility is always celebrated; limited history of on-field success and little or no sustained history of winning. (Akron, Ball State, Coastal Carolina, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Louisiana-Monroe, New Mexico State, Rice, San Jose State, South Alabama, Texas State, UMass, UTEP, UTSA)
(This post was last modified: 01-05-2021 02:35 PM by monarx.)
01-05-2021 02:33 PM
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Chillie Willie Offline
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Post: #31
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
(01-05-2021 02:33 PM)monarx Wrote:  https://www.espn.com/college-football/in...ve-group-5

Interesting article about coaching vacancies in the G5 and the perception of various teams. We get lumped into tier 4 which is probably fair at this point. We should strive to be a solid tier 3 ASAP (maybe Rhane gets us there), but our record is who we are for now. Tier 2 should be where ODU strives to be within a decade IMO.

They break down the G5 into 5 tiers described as the following:

Tier 1 jobs: Financial backing for coaches' salaries, support staff and facilities projects; no major barriers in access to top recruits; consistent league title contenders that regularly target New Year's Six bowls; history of wins against Power 5 (recent or long term); strong local or regional fan support; Power 5 expansion candidates. (Boise, Houston, UCF, Cincy)

Tier 2 jobs: Solid footing with finances, facilities and support; access to good regional recruiting areas; competes often for league championships, regularly makes bowls and occasionally challenges for the New Year's Six; some history of wins against the Power 5 (recent or long term); solid local or regional fan base. (BYU, Memphis, Navy, San Diego State, SMU, South Florida, Temple)

Tier 3 jobs: Some resource or location limitations but enough to make bowl games consistently and challenge for conference titles; a restricted but decent recruiting pool of regional or national prospects; a rare New Year's Six appearance is the ceiling; not a realistic candidate for Power 5 expansion. (Air Force, Appalachian State, Arkansas State, Central Michigan, Colorado State, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Fresno State, Georgia Southern, Louisiana, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Miami (Ohio), Northern Illinois, North Texas, Ohio, Southern Miss, Toledo, Western Michigan, Wyoming)

Tier 4 jobs: Moderate challenges with finances, facilities or program support; requires a unique approach in recruiting to compete with upper-tier teams in their leagues; bowl eligibility is a realistic goal most seasons, with some 10-win seasons from time to time; not much sustained history of success. (Army, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Charlotte, Florida International, Georgia State, Hawaii, Liberty, Middle Tennessee, Nevada, New Mexico, Old Dominion, Troy, Tulane, Tulsa, UAB, UConn, UNLV, Utah State, Western Kentucky)

Tier 5 jobs: Significant challenges with infrastructure, support, facilities and/or location; restricted recruiting and/or fan base (regional or national); a place where bowl eligibility is always celebrated; limited history of on-field success and little or no sustained history of winning. (Akron, Ball State, Coastal Carolina, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Louisiana-Monroe, New Mexico State, Rice, San Jose State, South Alabama, Texas State, UMass, UTEP, UTSA)

Seems lonely in tiers 1 & 2. We should give them some company.
01-05-2021 02:45 PM
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ODUDrunkard13 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired

01-06-2021 08:45 AM
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ODU2K1 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
(01-05-2021 02:33 PM)monarx Wrote:  https://www.espn.com/college-football/in...ve-group-5

Interesting article about coaching vacancies in the G5 and the perception of various teams. We get lumped into tier 4 which is probably fair at this point. We should strive to be a solid tier 3 ASAP (maybe Rhane gets us there), but our record is who we are for now. Tier 2 should be where ODU strives to be within a decade IMO.

They break down the G5 into 5 tiers described as the following:

Tier 1 jobs: Financial backing for coaches' salaries, support staff and facilities projects; no major barriers in access to top recruits; consistent league title contenders that regularly target New Year's Six bowls; history of wins against Power 5 (recent or long term); strong local or regional fan support; Power 5 expansion candidates. (Boise, Houston, UCF, Cincy)

Tier 2 jobs: Solid footing with finances, facilities and support; access to good regional recruiting areas; competes often for league championships, regularly makes bowls and occasionally challenges for the New Year's Six; some history of wins against the Power 5 (recent or long term); solid local or regional fan base. (BYU, Memphis, Navy, San Diego State, SMU, South Florida, Temple)

Tier 3 jobs: Some resource or location limitations but enough to make bowl games consistently and challenge for conference titles; a restricted but decent recruiting pool of regional or national prospects; a rare New Year's Six appearance is the ceiling; not a realistic candidate for Power 5 expansion. (Air Force, Appalachian State, Arkansas State, Central Michigan, Colorado State, East Carolina, Florida Atlantic, Fresno State, Georgia Southern, Louisiana, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Miami (Ohio), Northern Illinois, North Texas, Ohio, Southern Miss, Toledo, Western Michigan, Wyoming)

Tier 4 jobs: Moderate challenges with finances, facilities or program support; requires a unique approach in recruiting to compete with upper-tier teams in their leagues; bowl eligibility is a realistic goal most seasons, with some 10-win seasons from time to time; not much sustained history of success. (Army, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Charlotte, Florida International, Georgia State, Hawaii, Liberty, Middle Tennessee, Nevada, New Mexico, Old Dominion, Troy, Tulane, Tulsa, UAB, UConn, UNLV, Utah State, Western Kentucky)

Tier 5 jobs: Significant challenges with infrastructure, support, facilities and/or location; restricted recruiting and/or fan base (regional or national); a place where bowl eligibility is always celebrated; limited history of on-field success and little or no sustained history of winning. (Akron, Ball State, Coastal Carolina, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Louisiana-Monroe, New Mexico State, Rice, San Jose State, South Alabama, Texas State, UMass, UTEP, UTSA)

IMHO that is the only thing holding us back. The albatross responsible for that has been removed from our collective necks. Tier 2 seems realistic near term to me, with Tier 1 before I'm off to the old retirement home.
01-06-2021 10:21 AM
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mturn017 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
Seems like the right place. What a dummy.

https://www.wavy.com/sports/local-sports..._zovr5nLOQ
01-07-2021 01:56 PM
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ODUalum78 Offline
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RE: 2020 CFB Coaches Fired
(01-07-2021 01:56 PM)mturn017 Wrote:  Seems like the right place. What a dummy.

https://www.wavy.com/sports/local-sports..._zovr5nLOQ

Indeed. The filter would get me if I posted what I think.
I would be surprised if he ever coaches again at any notable level.
01-07-2021 03:36 PM
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