(08-05-2020 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  But I'll give him credit for the quick wit on recognizing the leading nature of the question with the bit comparing it to taking a cocaine test before being interviewed. Biden is correct that him doing a mental cognition test would just provide fuel to the fire.

There are many jobs where you are required to demonstrate competency (or a lack of drug use) before being hired.

He's not being interviewed... He's gotten through the screener and we're down to the last two candidates. The comparison falls a little flat after then in that should someone fail the background check, we don't go back and make a new decision, but instead have already 'decided' by virtue of their party.

I find it telling that taking such a test would only 'add fuel to the fire' as opposed to 'answering the question definitively'.

(08-12-2020 08:33 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  But I'll give him credit for the quick wit on recognizing the leading nature of the question with the bit comparing it to taking a cocaine test before being interviewed. Biden is correct that him doing a mental cognition test would just provide fuel to the fire.

There are many jobs where you are required to demonstrate competency (or a lack of drug use) before being hired.

He's not being interviewed... He's gotten through the screener and we're down to the last two candidates. The comparison falls a little flat after then in that should someone fail the background check, we don't go back and make a new decision, but instead have already 'decided' by virtue of their party.

I find it telling that taking such a test would only 'add fuel to the fire' as opposed to 'answering the question definitively'.

Acing such a test would not quiet the criticism, but failing to ace it would just increase it.

Not a bad idea to avoid something with no upside even if you pass - so, like Trump's tax returns, it was smart to avoid it.

Still it would be nice to see Biden and Trump take the same test at the same time and the results published. I think that the left would claim the results were manipulated by the Russians.

How the Identity party works.

(08-12-2020 08:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 08:33 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  But I'll give him credit for the quick wit on recognizing the leading nature of the question with the bit comparing it to taking a cocaine test before being interviewed. Biden is correct that him doing a mental cognition test would just provide fuel to the fire.

There are many jobs where you are required to demonstrate competency (or a lack of drug use) before being hired.

He's not being interviewed... He's gotten through the screener and we're down to the last two candidates. The comparison falls a little flat after then in that should someone fail the background check, we don't go back and make a new decision, but instead have already 'decided' by virtue of their party.

I find it telling that taking such a test would only 'add fuel to the fire' as opposed to 'answering the question definitively'.

Acing such a test would not quiet the criticism, but failing to ace it would just increase it.

Not a bad idea to avoid something with no upside even if you pass - so, like Trump's tax returns, it was smart to avoid it.

Still it would be nice to see Biden and Trump take the same test at the same time and the results published. I think that the left would claim the results were manipulated by the Russians.

Not disagreeing with you, but people can complain about anything. There are people for whom no amount of evidence or facts would make any difference.... and I'm not speaking to or about them.

Your comparison to taxes makes a little sense, but it falls flat in one key area... the people who analyze taxes for the purpose for which they are intended have and/or will review them and have signed off on them as 'in line'. Surely if they found reason to suspect criminal activity, such evidence would be forwarded to the appropriate authorities. Tax evasion is a very common way of catching criminals.... but I've never seen it done by the press.

Joe Biden is absolutely under no legal obligation to submit to such a test... and for a number of reasons, he shouldn't.... but his response only made things worse.

1) This isn't a surprise question... It's been out there for some time... I understand it is/should be ignored/downplayed/dismissed, but if he hasn't prepared a canned response to this question of either, I'm not going to even dignify that with a response, next question... or a dismissive, I'm just fine... thanks... then he and/or his people are stupid. For them to be unprepared for it to where he needs a 'quick witted' response screams of incompetence.

2) The response is not at all on point. It might have been somewhat on point during the caucuses, but he's got the nomination now... It's time to start demonstrating your skills and capabilities for the job. If there are people out there right now trying to decide whether or not to vote for Biden, that response isn't going to resonate with them... even if they think he's fine mentally and don't like the question.

3) his response was so rambling, he almost made the point he was trying to deflect from.

Joe should have a concise one liner... and he should use it any time the subject is brought up. I'm just fine, thank you... next question.

(08-12-2020 10:48 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 08:38 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 08:33 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  But I'll give him credit for the quick wit on recognizing the leading nature of the question with the bit comparing it to taking a cocaine test before being interviewed. Biden is correct that him doing a mental cognition test would just provide fuel to the fire.

There are many jobs where you are required to demonstrate competency (or a lack of drug use) before being hired.

He's not being interviewed... He's gotten through the screener and we're down to the last two candidates. The comparison falls a little flat after then in that should someone fail the background check, we don't go back and make a new decision, but instead have already 'decided' by virtue of their party.

I find it telling that taking such a test would only 'add fuel to the fire' as opposed to 'answering the question definitively'.

Acing such a test would not quiet the criticism, but failing to ace it would just increase it.

Not a bad idea to avoid something with no upside even if you pass - so, like Trump's tax returns, it was smart to avoid it.

Still it would be nice to see Biden and Trump take the same test at the same time and the results published. I think that the left would claim the results were manipulated by the Russians.

Not disagreeing with you, but people can complain about anything. There are people for whom no amount of evidence or facts would make any difference.... and I'm not speaking to or about them.

Your comparison to taxes makes a little sense, but it falls flat in one key area... the people who analyze taxes for the purpose for which they are intended have and/or will review them and have signed off on them as 'in line'. Surely if they found reason to suspect criminal activity, such evidence would be forwarded to the appropriate authorities. Tax evasion is a very common way of catching criminals.... but I've never seen it done by the press.

Joe Biden is absolutely under no legal obligation to submit to such a test... and for a number of reasons, he shouldn't.... but his response only made things worse.

1) This isn't a surprise question... It's been out there for some time... I understand it is/should be ignored/downplayed/dismissed, but if he hasn't prepared a canned response to this question of either, I'm not going to even dignify that with a response, next question... or a dismissive, I'm just fine... thanks... then he and/or his people are stupid. For them to be unprepared for it to where he needs a 'quick witted' response screams of incompetence.

2) The response is not at all on point. It might have been somewhat on point during the caucuses, but he's got the nomination now... It's time to start demonstrating your skills and capabilities for the job. If there are people out there right now trying to decide whether or not to vote for Biden, that response isn't going to resonate with them... even if they think he's fine mentally and don't like the question.

3) his response was so rambling, he almost made the point he was trying to deflect from.

Joe should have a concise one liner... and he should use it any time the subject is brought up. I'm just fine, thank you... next question.

He does have a concise one liner - it's "C'mon, man".

Yeah, the IRS has audited his taxes for decades now. But that doesn't keep the self-appointed experts from saying "$X from operation in the Ukraine? Looks fishy to me. We need an explanation, and to get that we need a Congressional inquiry".

(08-12-2020 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  He does have a concise one liner - it's "C'mon, man".

Which to me, only looked like an old white guy trying to sound younger...

From the 70's.

(08-12-2020 12:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  He does have a concise one liner - it's "C'mon, man".

Which to me, only looked like an old white guy trying to sound younger...

From the 70's.

C'mon, man.

(08-12-2020 08:33 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-05-2020 03:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  But I'll give him credit for the quick wit on recognizing the leading nature of the question with the bit comparing it to taking a cocaine test before being interviewed. Biden is correct that him doing a mental cognition test would just provide fuel to the fire.

There are many jobs where you are required to demonstrate competency (or a lack of drug use) before being hired.

He's not being interviewed... He's gotten through the screener and we're down to the last two candidates. The comparison falls a little flat after then in that should someone fail the background check, we don't go back and make a new decision, but instead have already 'decided' by virtue of their party.

I find it telling that taking such a test would only 'add fuel to the fire' as opposed to 'answering the question definitively'.

It's akin to a leading question like, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

It would allow detractors to say, "See, even Biden's team think his mental competency is questionable since they made him take the test!"

I would have 0 issue with Biden doing it, I'm just explaining why I think his team won't have him do it - there is 0 upside/benefit to Biden taking the test. What upside do you see for Biden? Would a passing result change any votes?

(08-12-2020 04:53 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  there is 0 upside/benefit to Biden taking the test. What upside do you see for Biden?

I would say, in parallel, that there is 0 upside/benefit in Trump releasing his tax returns. What upside do you see for Trump?

This has been my position on the tax returns all along. Now, of course, some soldier ants will whine about it being traditional - traditional since Nixon, that is. But every tradition starts with the first time it is done. No reason not to start a new tradition this time, eh?

(08-12-2020 06:13 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 04:53 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  there is 0 upside/benefit to Biden taking the test. What upside do you see for Biden?

I would say, in parallel, that there is 0 upside/benefit in Trump releasing his tax returns. What upside do you see for Trump?

This has been my position on the tax returns all along. Now, of course, some soldier ants will whine about it being traditional - traditional since Nixon, that is. But every tradition starts with the first time it is done. No reason not to start a new tradition this time, eh?

I completely understand why Trump doesn't want to release them. Anyone with a quarter brain knows why he doesn't want to release them. Your response seems to think I didn't understand why Trump hasn't released his taxes.

But the American people would be better off with that information released. They would have a better understanding of the person running for POTUS. A simple pass/fail test is much less telling, and ripe for a potential abuse if used as a hurdle to become president. But in a perfect world where it wasn't abused, it would be beneficial to have candidates pass some basic physical and mental fitness tests.

(08-12-2020 06:18 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 06:13 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 04:53 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  there is 0 upside/benefit to Biden taking the test. What upside do you see for Biden?

I would say, in parallel, that there is 0 upside/benefit in Trump releasing his tax returns. What upside do you see for Trump?

This has been my position on the tax returns all along. Now, of course, some soldier ants will whine about it being traditional - traditional since Nixon, that is. But every tradition starts with the first time it is done. No reason not to start a new tradition this time, eh?

I completely understand why Trump doesn't want to release them. Anyone with a quarter brain knows why he doesn't want to release them. Your response seems to think I didn't understand why Trump hasn't released his taxes.

But the American people would be better off with that information released. They would have a better understanding of the person running for POTUS. A simple pass/fail test is much less telling, and ripe for a potential abuse if used as a hurdle to become president. But in a perfect world where it wasn't abused, it would be beneficial to have candidates pass some basic physical and mental fitness tests.

Glad you understand.

95% of the population do not understand taxes, and most of the other 5% is Republican. Famously 47% do not even pay federal income taxes, and most of the rest have simple returns done by professionals or software. They put in the numbers and an answer pops out, but they don't understand tax law anymore than I can be a veterinarian. few people have any familiarity with the complex tax returns of people like Trump. But the libs would find something to nit pick and all the soldier ants will chorus what the leaders like Schiff say.

I agree with your final statement.

(08-12-2020 06:18 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I completely understand why Trump doesn't want to release them. Anyone with a quarter brain knows why he doesn't want to release them. Your response seems to think I didn't understand why Trump hasn't released his taxes.

So why is it that you think he doesn't want to release them?

(08-12-2020 10:04 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-12-2020 06:18 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I completely understand why Trump doesn't want to release them. Anyone with a quarter brain knows why he doesn't want to release them. Your response seems to think I didn't understand why Trump hasn't released his taxes.

So why is it that you think he doesn't want to release them?

I could speculate for hours on why, but the fact that he so closely guards them makes me believe they show something he doesn’t want others to see. And given how vain he is, that could be something completely inconsequential like his net worth being lower than he tells others.

(08-13-2020 06:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I could speculate for hours on why, but the fact that he so closely guards them makes me believe they show something he doesn’t want others to see. And given how vain he is, that could be something completely inconsequential like his net worth being lower than he tells others.

I think he does not want the distraction of having to explain what things mean to people who don't want to listen.


And for the umpteenth time, net worth is not part of the tax returns. Good example of why he does not need to publish them.

(08-13-2020 09:29 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-13-2020 06:36 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I could speculate for hours on why, but the fact that he so closely guards them makes me believe they show something he doesn’t want others to see. And given how vain he is, that could be something completely inconsequential like his net worth being lower than he tells others.

I think he does not want the distraction of having to explain what things mean to people who don't want to listen.


And for the umpteenth time, net worth is not part of the tax returns. Good example of why he does not need to publish them.

Yes, there is not a single line item that says "net worth" but there's a significant amount of information that a best guess can be made - certainly not one down to a dollar.

But the point still stands - I don't buy that he doesn't want to explain things, that type of thinking doesn't really comport with the Trump we all know. It's far more likely that he doesn't want people to see something that he considers unsavory, regardless of whether it is actually an issue or not.

(08-12-2020 04:53 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  It's akin to a leading question like, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

It would allow detractors to say, "See, even Biden's team think his mental competency is questionable since they made him take the test!"

I would have 0 issue with Biden doing it, I'm just explaining why I think his team won't have him do it - there is 0 upside/benefit to Biden taking the test. What upside do you see for Biden? Would a passing result change any votes?

You're conflating arguments...

1) the same people who would say 'see they made him take it' are already saying 'he's refusing because he knows he won't pass it'... so nothing changes except their argument. The same would be true of many on the left who would still vote for him if he failed it. Those people deserve no time at all

2) I have not suggested he take one... I have suggested that he either completely dismiss it or that he have a short, concise and somewhat dismissive answer. I have suggested that his rambling answer here actually only provided more fuel to the fire he intended to put out.

3) Only responding because you asked... Yes, I think to a truly undecided person who has seen Biden, including here... and heard the claims about him and has this nagging fear in the back of their minds... I think a test could eliminate their concerns. This probably isn't enough people to matter, but you implied that nobody cared and I think the number is far greater than zero. I know at least one Democrat who has expressed concerns about Biden's ramblings and is therefore looking very hard at his #2. There were similar questions about McCain's health.

Finally to the 'when did you stop beating your wife' comparison... That's not even remotely close. The fact that you lauded his comparison to a pre-employment drug test (as if such things weren't common) and now to this argument in the absurd comes across as an attempt to deflect from a very simple and common question that his team should have been prepared for.

Mr Biden, The life expectancy in the US is just over 78 years. If elected, you will be 78 years old when you take office and 82 by the time your term ends. In addition to death, there are a number of maladies associated with aging that could interfere with your ability to execute the office that you seek. What do you say to people, especially young voters who might have concerns about your age?

He should expect to be asked it and have a prepared answer... So should Trump... and Bernie... and most anyone else of advanced years.... and he should expect the press to ask it in an increasingly abrupt and rude way until they grow tired of the same boring response.

In politics, there sometimes ARE no good answers. As I've suggested, Trump (or Obama) could have spit gold and some would find something to be upset about. Biden's answer made him look like an old white guy trying to sound 'hip'... If he were a Republican, there would be scores of jokes about it... and it did absolutely nothing to dissuade the question from being asked again. If anything, his response made it more likely to be asked because he rambled. The press and/or those seeking to call his capacity into question got exactly what they wanted.

(08-13-2020 09:50 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yes, there is not a single line item that says "net worth" but there's a significant amount of information that a best guess can be made - certainly not one down to a dollar.

Just shows your ignorance of accounting. What is the net worth of an individual who shows $800K of income? what is the net worth of an individual who shows $30K of income? Both of those individuals are me in the last five years - and my net worth has not changed much in that period.

But you are right, there will be guesses made, and they will be biased and baseless. Hardly "best".

Quote:But the point still stands - I don't buy that he doesn't want to explain things, that type of thinking doesn't really comport with the Trump we all know. It's far more likely that he doesn't want people to see something that he considers unsavory, regardless of whether it is actually an issue or not.

Disagree with your opinion, and seeing as it fits with the OMB rant from your crowd, I also dismiss it. Just looking for boogeymen in the dark. I could just as easily say Biden's refusal to take a test probably means he is afraid of the results. Or his handlers are.

I like your usage of "unsavory". Nebulous and unspecific. really, meaningless. Since he is under constant audit, it cannot mean illegal, I presume you are talking about things like earnest money forfeited and capital gains treatment of income? Deductions for legal advice and appraisals? Depreciation?

I am sure people who work for $14/hour would find making a profit on investment "unsavory". Way unlike making a profit on selling influence.

(08-13-2020 10:48 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-13-2020 09:50 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yes, there is not a single line item that says "net worth" but there's a significant amount of information that a best guess can be made - certainly not one down to a dollar.

Just shows your ignorance of accounting. What is the net worth of an individual who shows $800K of income? what is the net worth of an individual who shows $30K of income? Both of those individuals are me in the last five years - and my net worth has not changed much in that period.

But you are right, there will be guesses made, and they will be biased and baseless. Hardly "best".

This. Not trying to be rude Lad, but your response is exactly what most people think (because they don't know) and it exactly why he wouldn't want to release them. You can't even get the direction of the net worth change, much less down to dollars.

As to 'unsavory'... I've seen people upset (they find it unsavory) when companies pay no taxes on millions of revenue this year... ignoring (or ignorant of the fact) that part of the reason they paid no taxes this year because they lost millions in the previous years... and many of those same people would use those losses in previous years to claim the 'unsavory' quality that he's a bad businessman because he lost money. Those are both 'unsavory', and neither is remotely illegal, unethical or wrong.

When you make an investment, you typically lose lots of money up front and make it back later. That is how most accounting for investors work. Often their net worth is increasing as they are reporting losses, especially if the rationale for the investment were to 'increase value of the asset' (like developing a raw property) as opposed to generating revenue from it (by leasing it out). Now throw in having perhaps dozens of projects at various stages of their development, not to mention a dozen different 'participations' and you have something that only a few people (like the IRS) would even begin to be able to unravel.

I DO find it funny that you seem to think Biden ignores the question because the answer wouldn't make the questions stop, but Trump ignores the questions because he has something to hide.

(08-13-2020 12:04 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(08-13-2020 10:48 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-13-2020 09:50 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yes, there is not a single line item that says "net worth" but there's a significant amount of information that a best guess can be made - certainly not one down to a dollar.

Just shows your ignorance of accounting. What is the net worth of an individual who shows $800K of income? what is the net worth of an individual who shows $30K of income? Both of those individuals are me in the last five years - and my net worth has not changed much in that period.

But you are right, there will be guesses made, and they will be biased and baseless. Hardly "best".

This. Not trying to be rude Lad, but your response is exactly what most people think (because they don't know) and it exactly why he wouldn't want to release them. You can't even get the direction of the net worth change, much less down to dollars.

As to 'unsavory'... I've seen people upset (they find it unsavory) when companies pay no taxes on millions of revenue this year... ignoring (or ignorant of the fact) that part of the reason they paid no taxes this year because they lost millions in the previous years... and many of those same people would use those losses in previous years to claim the 'unsavory' quality that he's a bad businessman because he lost money. Those are both 'unsavory', and neither is remotely illegal, unethical or wrong.

When you make an investment, you typically lose lots of money up front and make it back later. That is how most accounting for investors work. Often their net worth is increasing as they are reporting losses, especially if the rationale for the investment were to 'increase value of the asset' (like developing a raw property) as opposed to generating revenue from it (by leasing it out). Now throw in having perhaps dozens of projects at various stages of their development, not to mention a dozen different 'participations' and you have something that only a few people (like the IRS) would even begin to be able to unravel.

I DO find it funny that you seem to think Biden ignores the question because the answer wouldn't make the questions stop, but Trump ignores the questions because he has something to hide.

If there was a precedent of POTUS nominees taking mental evals, I would have the same opinion of Biden. Same if he doesn’t release tax returns.

Edit: the crux of the issue is going against the norms. If you go against norms, there must be a perceived net positive - to me, the most logical reason that Trump went against norms is that he felt keeping that information out of public eye was worth the consternation from the public. And it makes sense to me that it was because he actually wanted to hide something or didn’t want people to know something (subtle difference I can explain if you need me to).

Biden is sticking with the norm by not taking a cognition test, so I don’t see that as him wanting to hide something. Taking a cognition test, against the norm, would be done to prove something, and I don’t buy the idea that it would sway anyone.

But like I said, in a perfect world, we would have some mental and physical evaluations done. And I don’t think questioning either candidate about their age or cognitive ability is off limits.