(08-08-2020 01:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:46 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:36 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  OMG! All you have is denigrating Biden? By publicizing his record. Oh, how devious. Makes underwing Hillary by publishing he yoga schedules positively amateurish. Whoop-ti-do.

Another nothingburger amplified by the DNC to prey on fears that the DNC is amplifying to, ahem, denigrate Trump.

Do you read any of this critically, or just swallow it?

Do you know where the quote I just posted came from?

Here is the previous assessments take on Russia:

Quote: Today, we see our adversaries seeking to compromise the private communications of U.S. political campaigns, candidates and other political targets. Our adversaries also seek to compromise our election infrastructure, and we continue to monitor malicious cyber actors trying to gain access to U.S. state and federal networks, including those responsible for managing elections. However, the diversity of election systems among the states, multiple checks and redundancies in those systems, and post-election auditing all make it extraordinarily difficult for foreign adversaries to broadly disrupt or change vote tallies without detection...

Russia’s persistent objective is to weaken the United States and diminish our global role. Using a range of efforts, including internet trolls and other proxies, Russia continues to spread disinformation in the U.S. that is designed to undermine confidence in our democratic process and denigrate what it sees as an anti-Russia “establishment” in America.

Oh dear. It really is a conspiracy against the Democrats.

This seems like a weird deflection - the DNI is outlining these concerns and clearly identifies Russia as the most aggressive in terms of concrete actions, since they don’t even try and identify concrete actions by Iran/China.

We also know Russia tried to hack election infrastructure in 2016, so history tells us if that general concern exists in 2020, it likely is associated with Russia again.

This really doesn’t matter who is favored by which country, but rather which country is most likely to take concrete, overt steps to interfere.

The attempts to influence 2016 were ineffectual, and I expect 2020 to be no different. All we hear from the Dems is Russia, Russia, Russia. The 1980’s want their enemies back.

One of St Barry's oh so prescient and not-so spot on snark ass comments. I see you are an admirer of the classics.

I am sure the story is that Trump made it bad, just like Portland.

Portraits of Hypocrisy:

2005, St Barry, US Senator, in support of the filibuster brewing on the nomination of Alito --- "“What they don’t expect is for one party — be it Republican or Democrat — to change the rules in the middle of the game so that they can make all the decisions while the other party is told to sit down and keep quiet. The American people want less partisanship in this town, but everyone in this chamber knows that if the majority chooses to end the filibuster — if they choose to change the rules and put an end to democratic debate — then the fighting and the bitterness and the gridlock will only get worse.”

Quite the spirited defense of the filibuster.

2020, St Barry, ex-President and newly returned to Community Organizer in Chief, on the filibuster --- "eliminating the filibuster, another Jim Crow relic"

What an awesome display of spinelessness and superlative display of position dependent caterwauling.

(08-08-2020 01:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:46 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:39 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Do you know where the quote I just posted came from?

Here is the previous assessments take on Russia:

Oh dear. It really is a conspiracy against the Democrats.

This seems like a weird deflection - the DNI is outlining these concerns and clearly identifies Russia as the most aggressive in terms of concrete actions, since they don’t even try and identify concrete actions by Iran/China.

We also know Russia tried to hack election infrastructure in 2016, so history tells us if that general concern exists in 2020, it likely is associated with Russia again.

This really doesn’t matter who is favored by which country, but rather which country is most likely to take concrete, overt steps to interfere.

The attempts to influence 2016 were ineffectual, and I expect 2020 to be no different. All we hear from the Dems is Russia, Russia, Russia. The 1980’s want their enemies back.

You know the DNI is not the DNC, right?

They are pointing to three countries that may try to influence the upcoming elections, and it’s clear that Russia is likely to be the most overtly acting country.

And none of them will make the slightest difference in any outcome. But the Dems are paranoid about this, still unable to see any other way that Hillary could lose and panicked that it could happen again. So they whine and cry and make up tales. Russia! Russia! Russia!

I say let Russia and China buy ads - the US can use the added capital. And Finland and Israel and whoever else wants to spend their money here. Russia can denigrate Biden and China can denigrate Trump and it’s a wash.

(08-08-2020 02:09 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Portraits of Hypocrisy:

2005, St Barry, US Senator, in support of the filibuster brewing on the nomination of Alito --- "“What they don’t expect is for one party — be it Republican or Democrat — to change the rules in the middle of the game so that they can make all the decisions while the other party is told to sit down and keep quiet. The American people want less partisanship in this town, but everyone in this chamber knows that if the majority chooses to end the filibuster — if they choose to change the rules and put an end to democratic debate — then the fighting and the bitterness and the gridlock will only get worse.”

Quite the spirited defense of the filibuster.

2020, St Barry, ex-President and newly returned to Community Organizer in Chief, on the filibuster --- "eliminating the filibuster, another Jim Crow relic"

What an awesome display of spinelessness and superlative display of position dependent caterwauling.

Yeah, Democrats are hypocrites. I am shocked, shocked, I tell you.

(08-08-2020 04:52 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:46 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Oh dear. It really is a conspiracy against the Democrats.

This seems like a weird deflection - the DNI is outlining these concerns and clearly identifies Russia as the most aggressive in terms of concrete actions, since they don’t even try and identify concrete actions by Iran/China.

We also know Russia tried to hack election infrastructure in 2016, so history tells us if that general concern exists in 2020, it likely is associated with Russia again.

This really doesn’t matter who is favored by which country, but rather which country is most likely to take concrete, overt steps to interfere.

The attempts to influence 2016 were ineffectual, and I expect 2020 to be no different. All we hear from the Dems is Russia, Russia, Russia. The 1980’s want their enemies back.

You know the DNI is not the DNC, right?

They are pointing to three countries that may try to influence the upcoming elections, and it’s clear that Russia is likely to be the most overtly acting country.

And none of them will make the slightest difference in any outcome. But the Dems are paranoid about this, still unable to see any other way that Hillary could lose and panicked that it could happen again. So they whine and cry and make up tales. Russia! Russia! Russia!

I say let Russia and China buy ads - the US can use the added capital. And Finland and Israel and whoever else wants to spend their money here. Russia can denigrate Biden and China can denigrate Trump and it’s a wash.

I don’t understand why you keep being “the Dems” into a discussion about the findings of the DNI.

(08-08-2020 01:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  They are pointing to three countries that may try to influence the upcoming elections, and it’s clear that Russia is likely to be the most overtly acting country.

Clear based upon what?

(08-08-2020 01:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The attempts to influence 2016 were ineffectual, and I expect 2020 to be no different. All we hear from the Dems is Russia, Russia, Russia. The 1980’s want their enemies back.

We are in Cold War II, and the enemy is China, not Russia. The 1980s have the wrong enemies for the 2020s.

If we were smart, we could triangulate Russia against China, the same way Nixon tried to triangulate China against Russia.

Come to think of it, we could learn a lot about how to beat China from the way we beat Russia in Cold War I. Truman bribed up an alliance to contain Russian advances in Europe, and four decades later Reagan put pressure their economy and the Soviet Union imploded. China has a stated goal to take over the first island chain. So bribe up an allowance among Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, and Taiwan, to go the existing Quad--USA, Japan, Australia, India--and South Korea. Offer them pretty much the same bribe we offered allies in 1944-1950. We will move industries from China to you, to add to your GDP, and our military will join with yours to oppose future Chinese aggression in the area. That pretty well locks in China from the sea. And their economy depends on exporting cheap consumer goods and importing Mideast oil, two things that the first island chain can prevent.

(08-08-2020 09:49 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  They are pointing to three countries that may try to influence the upcoming elections, and it’s clear that Russia is likely to be the most overtly acting country.

Clear based upon what?

The assessment of the DNI - it’s clear as day in the publicly released statements I have been quoting. Do you not believe the DNI’s assessment? And if not, what makes you think Russia isn’t acting, or may not act, in the manner the DNI suggests?

Heck, even well known Republicans agree:

Quote: And Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) warned in February that any derogatory information coming out of Ukraine about any American should be vetted by intelligence agencies because “Russia is playing us all like a fiddle.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/20...ign-373134

(08-08-2020 09:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 04:52 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 12:52 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  This seems like a weird deflection - the DNI is outlining these concerns and clearly identifies Russia as the most aggressive in terms of concrete actions, since they don’t even try and identify concrete actions by Iran/China.

We also know Russia tried to hack election infrastructure in 2016, so history tells us if that general concern exists in 2020, it likely is associated with Russia again.

This really doesn’t matter who is favored by which country, but rather which country is most likely to take concrete, overt steps to interfere.

The attempts to influence 2016 were ineffectual, and I expect 2020 to be no different. All we hear from the Dems is Russia, Russia, Russia. The 1980’s want their enemies back.

You know the DNI is not the DNC, right?

They are pointing to three countries that may try to influence the upcoming elections, and it’s clear that Russia is likely to be the most overtly acting country.

And none of them will make the slightest difference in any outcome. But the Dems are paranoid about this, still unable to see any other way that Hillary could lose and panicked that it could happen again. So they whine and cry and make up tales. Russia! Russia! Russia!

I say let Russia and China buy ads - the US can use the added capital. And Finland and Israel and whoever else wants to spend their money here. Russia can denigrate Biden and China can denigrate Trump and it’s a wash.

I don’t understand why you keep being “the Dems” into a discussion about the findings of the DNI.

Because I am talking about the Dems.

(08-08-2020 10:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 09:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 04:52 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:03 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  The attempts to influence 2016 were ineffectual, and I expect 2020 to be no different. All we hear from the Dems is Russia, Russia, Russia. The 1980’s want their enemies back.

You know the DNI is not the DNC, right?

They are pointing to three countries that may try to influence the upcoming elections, and it’s clear that Russia is likely to be the most overtly acting country.

And none of them will make the slightest difference in any outcome. But the Dems are paranoid about this, still unable to see any other way that Hillary could lose and panicked that it could happen again. So they whine and cry and make up tales. Russia! Russia! Russia!

I say let Russia and China buy ads - the US can use the added capital. And Finland and Israel and whoever else wants to spend their money here. Russia can denigrate Biden and China can denigrate Trump and it’s a wash.

I don’t understand why you keep being “the Dems” into a discussion about the findings of the DNI.

Because I am talking about the Dems.

But the article discusses the statement made by the DNI...

(08-08-2020 10:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 09:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 04:52 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 01:32 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  You know the DNI is not the DNC, right?

They are pointing to three countries that may try to influence the upcoming elections, and it’s clear that Russia is likely to be the most overtly acting country.

And none of them will make the slightest difference in any outcome. But the Dems are paranoid about this, still unable to see any other way that Hillary could lose and panicked that it could happen again. So they whine and cry and make up tales. Russia! Russia! Russia!

I say let Russia and China buy ads - the US can use the added capital. And Finland and Israel and whoever else wants to spend their money here. Russia can denigrate Biden and China can denigrate Trump and it’s a wash.

I don’t understand why you keep being “the Dems” into a discussion about the findings of the DNI.

Because I am talking about the Dems.

But the article discusses the statement made by the DNI...

And I am talking about the Democrats.

(08-08-2020 10:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 09:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 04:52 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  And none of them will make the slightest difference in any outcome. But the Dems are paranoid about this, still unable to see any other way that Hillary could lose and panicked that it could happen again. So they whine and cry and make up tales. Russia! Russia! Russia!

I say let Russia and China buy ads - the US can use the added capital. And Finland and Israel and whoever else wants to spend their money here. Russia can denigrate Biden and China can denigrate Trump and it’s a wash.

I don’t understand why you keep being “the Dems” into a discussion about the findings of the DNI.

Because I am talking about the Dems.

But the article discusses the statement made by the DNI...

And I am talking about the Democrats.

But the Democrats aren’t making up tales - the DNI is explicitly stating that Russia is a serious threat to overtly try to influence the election.

The only way Democrats could be making up tales about Russia, is if the DNI is also making up tales about Russia.

(08-05-2020 10:48 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  I would just rather have a VP (and future Presdent) who has not lied to me about something as major as Benghazi, even t if it was at the instructions of Obama.

When you think about it, having her do those interviews was a master stroke of illusion.

She had a title at the time (UN Ambassador) that made her sound important, but there was no need for her to know any actual facts. So she could be fed whatever narrative they wanted to give her, and have plausible deniability later.

(08-09-2020 07:03 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 09:38 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  I don’t understand why you keep being “the Dems” into a discussion about the findings of the DNI.

Because I am talking about the Dems.

But the article discusses the statement made by the DNI...

And I am talking about the Democrats.

But the Democrats aren’t making up tales.

Where have you been the last four years?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/their-...li=BBnb7Kz

(08-09-2020 09:24 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-09-2020 07:03 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:57 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:17 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-08-2020 10:14 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Because I am talking about the Dems.

But the article discusses the statement made by the DNI...

And I am talking about the Democrats.

But the Democrats aren’t making up tales.

Where have you been the last four years?

Think of the implication of that comment - it says that the DNI’s current evaluation of potential election interference isn’t relevant.

Do you believe the DNI is making up its assessment?

(08-09-2020 10:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Do you believe the DNI is making up its assessment?

Understand something. Intelligence assessments are almost ALWAYS made up to some extent. You almost never have complete information, so you have to make up at least part of it. You don't have subpoena or other discovery methods, and the other side is trying to conceal information from you, so you can't possibly have a solid case. You get as much data as you can, and then make your best guess. That's one reason why they are called "intelligence estimates." And if the guessers are biased, then the guesses are going to be biased too.

I know of two contrary examples from WWII--Joe Rochefort and Bletchley Park. But both were very extraordinary situations.

Relying on an intelligence assessment as the Gospel truth is a good way to get your ass handed to you.

(08-09-2020 02:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-09-2020 10:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Do you believe the DNI is making up its assessment?

Understand something. Intelligence assessments are almost ALWAYS made up to some extent. You almost never have complete information, so you have to make up at least part of it. You don't have subpoena or other discovery methods, and the other side is trying to conceal information from you, so you can't possibly have a solid case. You get as much data as you can, and then make your best guess. That's one reason why they are called "intelligence estimates." And if the guessers are biased, then the guesses are going to be biased too.

I know of two contrary examples from WWII--Joe Rochefort and Bletchley Park. But both were very extraordinary situations.

Relying on an intelligence assessment as the Gospel truth is a good way to get your ass handed to you.

Of course they’re not gospel, as they are assessments. But there is a stark difference between an assessment founded on evidence that comes to a conclusion and one that is made up.

Frankly, it is impressive that you’re seemingly trying to justify this position by OO, that Dems are making up that Russia is looking to interfere with the 2020 elections, when we have ample evidence they did it in 2016 and we have our intelligence agency saying they will (and already) are doing it again.

You’re drawing an absolutely absurd false equivalency here.

(08-09-2020 06:42 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(08-09-2020 02:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(08-09-2020 10:25 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Do you believe the DNI is making up its assessment?

Understand something. Intelligence assessments are almost ALWAYS made up to some extent. You almost never have complete information, so you have to make up at least part of it. You don't have subpoena or other discovery methods, and the other side is trying to conceal information from you, so you can't possibly have a solid case. You get as much data as you can, and then make your best guess. That's one reason why they are called "intelligence estimates." And if the guessers are biased, then the guesses are going to be biased too.

I know of two contrary examples from WWII--Joe Rochefort and Bletchley Park. But both were very extraordinary situations.

Relying on an intelligence assessment as the Gospel truth is a good way to get your ass handed to you.

Of course they’re not gospel, as they are assessments. But there is a stark difference between an assessment founded on evidence that comes to a conclusion and one that is made up.

Frankly, it is impressive that you’re seemingly trying to justify this position by OO, that Dems are making up that Russia is looking to interfere with the 2020 elections, when we have ample evidence they did it in 2016 and we have our intelligence agency saying they will (and already) are doing it again.

You’re drawing an absolutely absurd false equivalency here.

Well, of the two having the back and forth in this:

one was jumping up and down and noting how the Steele dossier was serious ****, the FISA stuff was all above aboard, Flynn should be drawn and quartered, and how it stunk to to high heaven and beyond how far Trump seemed to be be involved (i.e. 'what the Democrats were saying').

And one didnt.

(08-09-2020 06:42 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  that Dems are making upagain that Russia is looking to interfere with the 2020 elections, when we have ample evidence they did it in 2016

I think the 2016 "interference" has been way, way, way overstated by the Democrats looking for an excuse invalidate the election since it didn't go their way. The publishing of truth in the Hillary emails stands in stark contrast to use of lies in the Steele dossier. But the bottom line is that whatever the Russians did, it had little or no effect.

Likewise, I expect this same stuff to have little or no effect in 2020, but the same people (Democrats) are trying to blow it it into a massive attack, while at the same time minimizing the same type of stuff from China and Iran and others. I think the only reason to do this is because they have tied Russia and Trump together so long.

So in the end it is just another anti-Trump ploy. We have been hearing this stuff for four yeas (WOLF!!!). I think in the end, we saw no significant influence in the 2016 election and we will see none in the 2020 election. Same as in every election.

Not to say the Russians, Iranians, Chinese and others aren't trying. But they are not changing our elections, any more than we are successfully changing theirs, and we also are trying that.