(07-19-2020 10:38 AM)Bogg Wrote:  

(07-19-2020 10:33 AM)Gamecock Wrote:  

(07-18-2020 11:47 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(07-18-2020 05:42 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  Cincinnati tried this experiment in the 70s thru the early 90s. You can’t build a fan base this way, fans who will buy tickets and donate $$ to the school. With no fans you cannot attract recruits. Recruits want to play for conference championships and be selected to all-conference teams. It sounds hokie but it is true.

Cincinnati may have failed at this, but that doesn’t mean schools in different situations can’t make it work. Ohio isn’t the whole country, must I remind you, friend? You’re in MAC territory with a major basketball program that has dictated decisions for years.

Cincinnati following the UConn path might make some sense. Not sure if the Big East would have them but they have a great hoops program

Seems like Cincinnati and Temple are blocked by X and Nova, however they may feel about the idea.

As all the fair-minded posters on this board have noted: Cincinnati and Temple are both "Big East worthy and of Big East caliber." However, and as we all know, it would make zero sense for the Big East to want the two as the league already has a presence in Cincy and Philly.

(07-19-2020 11:37 AM)THUNDERStruck73 Wrote:  

(07-18-2020 02:02 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(07-18-2020 01:54 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  ODU would be a better selection for the Big East than St. Louis.

If there was a hypothetical Big East president vote between SLU-ODU, SLU would be the slam dunk winner. One is non-FB Jesuit, the other an FBS public. ODU would have to perform at a minimum VCU-like level to overcome that.

Just FYI, Butler isn’t Catholic either... and neither is UConn, but I get why they were added.

I strongly feel Saint Louis would make much more sense than Old Dominion (and I tremendously respect what ODU is doing with its athletics program) for the Big East. SLU has a history with DePaul and Marquette (ODU does not), does not offer IA football (ODU does) and is a Catholic university (ODU is secular). In fact, in some respects, SLU would have made more sense as a Big East add than UConn.

Of note: Though Butler is a secular school, it was founded by members of the Disciples of Christ. So it has a religious/Christian background.

Based on "profile," UConn is hands down the "outlier" in the Big East given it is public school, offers Division IA football and is home to about 32,000 students, which is massive by the standards of most BE universities.

(07-18-2020 11:33 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(07-18-2020 11:30 AM)bullet Wrote:  The MAC/CUSA/SB schools get $1-$2 million typically from CFP. That's a big chunk of revenue.

No, it is simply a single P5 buy game.

Indeed ... it brings Kent State from three buy games to the equivalent of four.

It lets schools with more serious bowl game ambitions to schedule one buy game, two Go5 Home and Away contracts and buy an FCS game, and still end netting the revenue of one and a half buy games.

(07-18-2020 10:05 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Here are some quotes from the article. "UMass AD believes more schools will become FBS Independents as conference realignment starts up again in next five years"

Quote:UMass athletic director Ryan Bamford told the paper that UConn’s decision to leave the AAC could be the first of many others doing the same and that conference realignment likely kicking off in the next few years could be a driving force for schools in similar situations seeing the benefits to such a move as opposed to the negatives.

“From a football standpoint, looking at a league like the American with UConn and Temple in there would have made some sense,” Bamford said of talk about potentially taking the Huskies spot. “Now, I don’t think it does and we’ve found that being an independent and getting a really good, competitive, balanced schedule is doable. Now having lived it for three years and scheduling for the next three or four, there’s no real impetus for us to get into a league when I think there’s going to be more independent football-playing schools in the next three-to-five years as there’s going to be conference realignment.”

UConn weighing the pros and cons and going independent could be the start of a new wave (small wave) of new independents. It's great for UMass, which now has two bus trips to UConn and Army. Liberty is within the footprint of the old Yankee Conference, now CAA fcs football. Image if James Madison found a way to take their football team Independent. Or the A10 takes Old Dominion when say someone like Saint Louis is plucked for the new Big East. That would be 6 independents within a fairly tight footprint.

Click - full article link

Are there other teams that weigh the pros and cons?

I don't know about realignment impacting the A10 but I wouldn't be surprised if ODU would have quite a few votes for an invite regardless of a raid or not. VCU, Richmond, George Mason, George Washington, Davidson are all within about 4 to 5 hours of ODU which is a good chunk of the conference.

The A10 is at 14 and doesn't necessarily have to stay there with they way that conference is configured to schedule league play around the top teams. The scenario you put forward SLU to the BE seems quite unlikely at this point with the BE now enjoying the 11 team/20 game conference basketball schedule. More likely a drop of a weaker program or attempting to counter move the AAC.

The only Issue I see is TV dollars.... ND is the only Big Money team that get OTA $$ (currently with NBC)

Then BYU is the ESPN Indy and gets more than G5 Conf but way less than P-5 teams.... On the side...BYU would jump to a P5 if invited...

Uconn might be able to make it work who knows.... they have the best set up as far as the next TV with CBS Sports...but they are a MBB/WBB program who happens to play FB (the truth will be in the next FB TV contract if they get a lil more money then maybe indy FB is long term for them)....On a side note the Uconn would jump to a P5 if invited...

NMSU, Liberty IIWII and I can not see to many teams wanting to be them.... NMSU would jump to the MWC if invited, would play FB in WAC if re established

Not sure two many teams want to leave a conf for Indy, since teams need TV dollars to sustain long term... I think Ryan Bramford is just speaking out his arse..

I have a question of G5 vs Indy. How many of you guys think UMass or NM State, as independents, are “playing at a higher level” than a UCF, Houston, Memphis, Boise or Cincinnati? I get the sense that a lot of you feel this way.

I see Indy as more of a place to appease the fans who aren't satisfied with a conventional conference alignment.

NMSU-Should be FCS
UMass-Should be MAC
BYU-Should be MWC
Army-Should be AAC
UConn-Should be AAC
Liberty-Should be G5

Indy for them makes for a better situation rather than default conference membership.

Liberty I know doesn't have much of a choice but they have the FB and backing to be in FBS somewhere.

(07-18-2020 11:00 PM)solohawks Wrote:  Here is a fun idea if the A10 was able to split and work together for an FBS football scheduling consortium

UMass
URI
Fordham
LaSalle
St. Joe's
Duquense
St. Bonaventure
Dayton
St. Louis

George Washington
George Mason
VCU
Richmond
ODU
JMU
Davidson
Charlotte
UNCW
Charleston

FB - UMass, UConn, Army, Liberty, JMU, ODU, Charlotte
Each School would be guaranteed 3 home and 3 away each year which would make late season scheduling much much easier

I had a similar idea for this once only it looked more like the old Big East setup. And it would require the A10 to lose or drop a school while going to 18 Olympic sports schools. (which may be too much but it's a realignment board so here goes.)

Let's just say they dropped Fordham.

You'd have-

Olympic Only
Davidson
Dayton
Duquesene
George Mason
George Washington
La Salle
Rhode Island
Richmond
St. Joe's
St. Louis
St. Bonaventure
VCU

All Sports
UMass
New School
New School
New School
New School
New School

Football Only
Army
UConn

The A10 football league would have UMass and 5 new all sports members. With Army and UConn as football onlys.


It won't happen. Your idea just made me think of it again. As a Marshall fan I'd take one of the New School spots in a heartbeat.

I think the toxicity over the years in and among the east and mid-southern football independents doesn't bode much hope for significant growth in independence. Scheduling is one thing, which gets easier as that indy population grows, but the revenue, be it television, body-bags, or the traditional money that comes through the door and stadium gates. Let's face it, even if UConn and UMass can make independence work, when they are hosting games, most of them won't be power teams or schools who bring loyal fans with them. Heck, this is true of UMass and UConn themselves.

And there's the big-leaguing. Independence brings UConn and UMass together in affiliation, but good luck ever getting the two to work together as equals. And that's the case for Liberty and NMSU, too. If you see others start to emerge from FCS, they, too, will suffer the same.

Still think any team in CAA Football with sufficient facilities could make a case to go Indy. JMU, looking at you. There is also a case for a CUSA team with next to nill in TV revenue could go Indy, if they can find a home for other sports. ODU, looking at you when ESPN tells the Big East to expand and they raid a conference as the A10, making room for ODU.

JMU was too good for the G5 conference, which wanted to invite them and did not follow ODU when asked. Perhaps this time if ODU makes a move JMU will follow.

East Coast Indy would be:
Army
UConn
UMass
Liberty
ODU
JMU

With NMSU and BYU also being available to schedule before even looking at G5, P5 or a fcs conference team.

(07-21-2020 06:53 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I have a question of G5 vs Indy. How many of you guys think UMass or NM State, as independents, are “playing at a higher level” than a UCF, Houston, Memphis, Boise or Cincinnati? I get the sense that a lot of you feel this way.

I don’t think UMass or NMSU are playing at a higher level than the G5 conference members. Of course, those schools didn’t actually choose independence and they would be more than happy to join the AAC or MWC, respectively.

BYU has a better schedule (in the sense of playing more P5 schools) than a G5 school and UConn seems to be heading in that direction. Those are the schools that legitimately *chose* independence. I think the key factor for both of them is that they truly in their heart of hearts believed that they would have been in P5 conferences at this point. BYU has the added factor of its #1 hated rival getting a Pac-12 invite, while UConn had its basketball brand and historical natural landing spot with the Big East. Put all of that together and that’s why they’re willing to take a haircut on football rights fees in exchange for (at least in their minds) a way to be separate from the *structural* inferiority of the G5.

Independence doesn’t really make sense as a true *choice* for the vast majority of schools, although I’d agree with the UMass AD insofar that it’s not quite the outrageous crazy move that it might have been 5 years ago as long as a schools fits a certain type of profile. Geography is still the basis of most conference structures, so if a school’s profile is distinct from its geographic location, then it’s more likely that independence is viable. Schools that have true national profiles as opposed to being tied to a geographic region, such as the service academies, have always been natural candidates for independence (which is why Army is one and Navy used to be one). I don’t think it’s an accident that 3 independents happen to be highly religious schools (ND, BYU and Liberty), where once again their reasons for existence and draws for students are way beyond their respective geographic regions.

There are also the schools that feel that they legitimately deserve P5 membership but might be resigned to the fact that they won’t ever be invited due to rival schools blocking them, academics or other factors outside of their control. The schools in the MAC and Sun Belt are largely just happy to be playing FBS football. There are quite a few schools in the AAC and MWC, though, with significant chips on their shoulders and feel that they are school #66 in a system that is only allowing 65 schools in the P5 structure... and we live in a world where the gap in treatment, revenue and prestige between #65 and #66 is the size of the Grand Canyon. That’s what happened with UConn and BYU.

Could you see a school like, say, Boise State (where the MWC TV contracts explicitly call out that the Boise State games are more valuable) choose independence? What about the AAC schools that were defined as being in the “top tier” in that league’s contracts? To be very clear, I don’t think it’s *likely* that any of them would leave (as UConn had its home in the Big East for basketball and BYU has the backing of an entire religious denomination), but it’s not the 100% NFW non-starter that it was a few years ago, either. The P5 membership looks to be pretty much set for the foreseeable future, so the schools that perceive themselves to be the most valuable in the G5 are the ones that are more likely to get restless with the status quo.

(07-21-2020 09:09 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don’t think UMass or NMSU are playing at a higher level than the G5 conference members. Of course, those schools didn’t actually choose independence and they would be more than happy to join the AAC or MWC, respectively.

Frank, UMass is no longer interested in the AAC, with UConn departure.

See the first post of this thread in bold.

Any sort of consortium of Eastern Independents is going to face these 3 problems:

1. TV contract revenue
2. Bowl game access
3. CFP revenue

As much as they are frustrated with C-USA, ODU and Charlotte would lose a lot if they left it.

Neither the A-10 nor the CAA are well built to accommodate an FBS football league. Conceivably you could add 4 full members with FBS football to the CAA, have Delaware and JMU play with them with Army, UConn, and UMass as affiliates. America East takes over the FCS league. But all of that has a lot of working parts.

(07-21-2020 09:27 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(07-21-2020 09:09 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don’t think UMass or NMSU are playing at a higher level than the G5 conference members. Of course, those schools didn’t actually choose independence and they would be more than happy to join the AAC or MWC, respectively.

Frank, UMass is no longer interested in the AAC, with UConn departure.

See the first post of this thread in bold.

My guess is that UMass was one of the first schools to contact the AAC when UConn announced their intent to leave. I suspect a more historically well known CUSA team that feels undervalued—-like S Miss or Marshal might see an avenue to make more money as an independent than an AAC school (as AAC schools are being paid pretty well as G5 schools go).

(07-21-2020 06:53 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I have a question of G5 vs Indy. How many of you guys think UMass or NM State, as independents, are “playing at a higher level” than a UCF, Houston, Memphis, Boise or Cincinnati? I get the sense that a lot of you feel this way.

Who could possibly feel that way? The schedules of the AAC teams you mention are clearly better than the schedules UMass and NM State have put together.

Now BYU is another matter, they play a better schedule than do the AAC schools. But NMST and UMass are clearly lower in the G5/Indy hierarchy than are AAC schools.

(07-18-2020 11:57 PM)Scoochpooch1 Wrote:  

(07-18-2020 11:22 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(07-18-2020 10:51 AM)bullet Wrote:  Wishful thinking.

The TV contracts, bowls and access to the playoff money make it a non-starter except in special circumstances.

NMSU and Liberty would join a conference in an instant. If the A10 gets raided while the MAC continues to strengthen in basketball, UMass will be looking to join (let alone if the AAC invites them).

There is so much east coast bias. Eventhou the MAC is better than the A10 in almost every sport, except men's basketball. My hope is that some day down the road, UMass and either or both UConn and Army go as a package to an east coast or MAC football only.

Pipe dream and recommend skipping and back to more teams going independent.
For the MAC, which I like, imagine that UMass, UConn go full football and Army half in football. The MAC says it has to be revenue positive to the conference and the teams. So will take a team ending football. Say the MAC gets full 200k dues for each team. The MAC teams split 20% of the departed football team. UMass and UConn take a 30% cut and Army gets 20% cut of the departed football teams share. Army gets more than half of UConn and UMass but are pay full MAC dues for half the games.

There is no need from the scheduling perspective, but would be nice to have a conference championship possibility and defined bowl tie-ins.
UConn, UMass, Army pod is important playing each other as travel coast are to G5 teams.

I know you are talking about the Midwest but remember 80% of US population lives in the Central and Eastern time zones.

Central Time zone is not east coast. Texas is definitely not east coast.

(07-21-2020 09:27 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(07-21-2020 09:09 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don’t think UMass or NMSU are playing at a higher level than the G5 conference members. Of course, those schools didn’t actually choose independence and they would be more than happy to join the AAC or MWC, respectively.

Frank, UMass is no longer interested in the AAC, with UConn departure.

See the first post of this thread in bold.

There's no way UMass is turning down an AAC invite that would give the FB team a conference home and be an upgrade in basketball with a far better TV deal than what UMass has presently. The AD is simply positioning UMass as best he can given the present realities.

I'm not completely opposed to UMass, because I see value in state flagships for prestige and political muscle.

What is the current state on your on campus stadium? I vaguely remember there was going to be an expansion and upgrades? I think Foxborough would be a non-starter for the AAC.

(07-21-2020 09:27 AM)Steve1981 Wrote:  

(07-21-2020 09:09 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I don’t think UMass or NMSU are playing at a higher level than the G5 conference members. Of course, those schools didn’t actually choose independence and they would be more than happy to join the AAC or MWC, respectively.

Frank, UMass is no longer interested in the AAC, with UConn departure.

See the first post of this thread in bold.

You might be correct to post this, Steve1981. But I would think UMass would at least have to consider an AAC invite.

I would be fine having UMass in the American. It's a fine university in a highly populated state and with name recognition due to its quality men's hoops program and its one-time outstanding results in football in IAA.

Think it is important to have a conference affiliation for football. How ever the A10 has been a conference we have been uncomfortable leaving.

(07-21-2020 12:35 PM)Steve1981 Wrote:  Think it is important to have a conference affiliation for football. How ever the A10 has been a conference we have been uncomfortable leaving.

So your saying UMass would not leave the A10 for $7 million dollars a year.