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When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
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ChrisLords Offline
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Post: #41
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-06-2020 03:57 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  When the P5 breaks away from the NCAA to do their own thing, how do you expect the alignment to shake out? My guess:
......

I put this together in early 2018. It's a promotion/relegation league where the top 4 teams from the relegation league and the bottom 4 teams from the Champions league switch every other year based on a 2 year average. So it doesn't really matter how the leagues start as elite play will determine your league. That's only for football. All other sports have similar to existing leagues.

MCAA (Major Collegiate Athletics Association) 2 32 team conferences with 16 team relegation in football.
Conferences for all other sports other than football still NCAA:
SEC
-----
East
-----
Florida
Florida State
Georgia
Kentucky
South Carolina
Tennessee
Vanderbilt
West Virginia

-----
West
-----
Alabama
Arkansas
Auburn
LSU
Mississippi
Mississippi State
Missouri
Texas A&M



Big 10
-----
East
-----
Indiana
Maryland
Michigan
Michigan State
Ohio State
Penn State
Purdue
Rutgers

-----
West
-----
Illinois
Iowa
Kansas
Minnesota
Nebraska
Northwestern
Oklahoma
Wisconsin



ACC
-----
Atlantic
-----
Duke
Louisville
North Carolina
North Carolina State
Syracuse
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest

-----
Coastal
-----
Boston College
Clemson
Georgia Tech
Miami
Notre Dame
Pittsburgh
TCU
Texas



Pac 12
-----
West
-----
California
Oregon
Oregon State
Stanford
UCLA
USC
Washington
Washington State

-----
East
-----
Arizona
Arizona state
Colorado
Houston
Kansas State
Oklahoma State
Texas Tech
Utah


MCAA - 12 games. 7 against division, 4 other division, 1 vs Relegation league rival if possible. 8 team playoff for the Premiere leagues and an 8 team for the relegation leagues. No more championship games.

MCAA Football Premiere League East
South
-----
Alabama
Auburn
Clemson
Florida
Florida State
Georgia
LSU
Miami

North
-----
Louisville
Notre Dame
TCU
Tennessee
Texas
Texas A&M
Virginia Tech
West Virginia



MCAA Football Relegation League East
-----
North
-----
Boston College
Duke
North Carolina
North Carolina State
Pittsburgh
Syracuse
Virginia
Wake Forest

South
-----
Arkansas
Georgia Tech
Kentucky
Mississippi
Mississippi State
Missouri
South Carolina
Vanderbilt


MCAA Football Premiere League West
East
-----
Iowa
Kansas State
Michigan
Michigan State
Nebraska
Ohio State
Penn State
Wisconsin

West
-----
Arizona state
Houston
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Oregon
UCLA
USC
Washington



MCAA Football Relegation League West

East
-----
Indiana
Maryland
Purdue
Rutgers
Illinois
Kansas
Minnesota
Northwestern

West
-----
Arizona
California
Colorado
Oregon State
Stanford
Texas Tech
Utah
Washington State





Apparently, I thought Texas was a good fit for the ACC in 2018.
05-07-2020 06:09 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #42
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
Breakaway fanboys consistently forget that P5 universities are majority state-funded entities. Anybody remember why the BCS was forced to change to be more inclusive? Certain states being excluded ring a bell?

Do you know how many talented and hungry lawyers are just salivating at the breakaway idea? Doesn't matter if the AD is funded by state dollars or not, it's giving one state an unfair advantage over another that will be the issue, just like it was with the BCS.

Let's try to learn from history here, people.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2020 09:12 AM by esayem.)
05-07-2020 09:11 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #43
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 09:11 AM)esayem Wrote:  Breakaway fanboys consistently forget that P5 universities are majority state-funded entities. Anybody remember why the BCS was forced to change to be more inclusive? Certain states being excluded ring a bell?

Do you know how many talented and hungry lawyers are just salivating at the breakaway idea? Doesn't matter if the AD is funded by state dollars or not, it's giving one state an unfair advantage over another that will be the issue, just like it was with the BCS.

Let's try to learn from history here, people.

Well, lawyers didn't have much to do with the BCS becoming more inclusive. That was the US Senate. And it's not clear what legal issues would be raised by a breakaway.

I'm all for studying history, but one can argue that what happened to the BCS in the 2000s was kind of unique. You had one state, Utah, with two very well established football programs but no schools in the Power leagues, and a senator from that state who happened to be the Chair of the Judiciary Committee and thus in position to rattle some serious cages.

And that only lasted for a while. Remember, the only real substantive change was making it easier for non-AQ teams to get in, and that happened in 2005, when Hatch was at the height of his power. Hatch continued to rattle his sword about "anti-Trust' for the rest of the decade and in to the early 2010s, but no other changes were made because he had by then lost that power, and when the CFP was inaugurated, the big thing he had complained about, the money split between Power and non-Power, remained unchanged.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2020 09:25 AM by quo vadis.)
05-07-2020 09:24 AM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #44
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
I just don't see the P5 wanting to be so exclusive that in aggregate all their athletic teams would only win 50% of the time. They want - heck, they need - to have members they can reliably beat a high percentage of the time. Some of those schools are in their own conferences, but most are not. What they don't want in their club are schools that are only in it for the money. Money far in excess of the value that they bring to the organization.

I believe you could form an organization outside the NCAA where membership is by invitation only. Conferences themselves are by invitation only, and that apparently doesn't violate any legal restrictions. So why not an umbrella organization by invite only? Want to keep out the leeches? Set your dues at a level that is greater than an individual school which can't realistically compete would earn from shared revenues like national championship tournaments.

If annual dues were $2 million a year, and individual schools were only assured of about $200K a year from tournaments, a lot of the schools one might invite would decline to join. If you invited the schools that currently play FBS football, plus conferences like the Big East, A-10, WCC and MVC, I'm guessing that fewer than 150 of those 170 schools would decide to sign up. Maybe as few as 120 or so.

Now you have adequate revenue through dues to provide better officiating in all sports, conduct all your national championship events and provide much better compliance review and enforcement than you have now. Especially because your rule book would be considerably smaller than the NCAA's. You would no longer have to subsidize more than 1,000 schools with whom you have little in common other than the words "college" or "university" in their name.

But a P5 only breakaway? I just don't see it.
05-07-2020 09:33 AM
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Eldonabe Offline
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Post: #45
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
It ain't gonna happen. P5 Football can continue to stunt the growth of any competition they feel like - and the hoops is a cash cow. Oh and they can fly under the IRS radar.
05-07-2020 09:40 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #46
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 02:53 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-07-2020 01:54 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 08:58 PM)46566 Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 06:28 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 04:31 PM)46566 Wrote:  I agree and also think that the schools will leave allot of money through NCAA tournament units on table. The P5 units could be easily spread out among the remaining D1 schools and maybe bump D2 and D3 share. I personally think the NCAA would play hardball and state the new Organization is like the NAIA and only allow 4 non conference basketball games a year per school. They could easily merge the remaining FBS and FCS football they could have weekday bowl games and weekend playoff games. Make the P5 schools not eligible to play the new D1 football teams. This could try and force the bottom tier P5 to try and come back.

The main curiosity is the Big East as there non football but huge in basketball. I'm under the assumption they stay with the NCAA. I'm thinking that the P5 may be shooting themselves in the foot if they leave.

I doubt that would be helpful for those left behind in the NCAA. Not that it would matter much either way. While a break away P5 might not generate much extra net revenue for the P5---there is little doubt in my mind it would be devastating for the revenue prospects of the schools remaining in the NCAA. I dont really know what the G5 would do. My guess is it would be time to go to court with a anti-trust case. Im not sure they would have much of a case, but at that point, they would clearly have absolutely nothing to lose.

Would a anti trust argument work with already preexisting alternatives to the NCAA out there? I mentioned the NAIA already but there's also the NCCAA. The P5 could just mention there a separate organization like the NAIA. I'd say the G5 plus the remaining FBS independent schools merge with the FCS and the only scholarship rule is the max football scholarship is 85. Basically give the conference room to determine it's scholarship requirements.

Are bowl games like the rose bowl contracted with the NCAA or conferences? If the big ten and PAC 12 leave could a redone D1 football have a rose bowl game between the MWC and Big Sky conference?

FWIW---the NCAA tried the "Well. Oklahoma could always join the NAIA" argument in 1984 and it didnt fly. Like I said, I dont know if the G5 would have much of a case--but their prospects in the diminished NCAA would be so bleak that they really would have nothing to lose by trying the anti-trust route.

Your legal theory is that if a group of people leave an organization that is a monopoly in its industry, to start a competing organization, the folks remaining in the monopoly should sue the departing folks and accuse them of being anti-competitive.

I’ve given no legal theory and have said they might not have much of a case. What I said is they would have nothing to lose by tossing the anti-trust grenade at that point. Frankly, the NCAA was a walking anti-trust violation during its last 2 decades. It’s going to be very difficult for any similar P5 organization/cartel created around the pillars of exclusivity and denial of access—-to avoid many of the same pit falls.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2020 09:51 AM by Attackcoog.)
05-07-2020 09:50 AM
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TripleA Offline
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Post: #47
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-06-2020 07:15 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 09:23 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 08:30 AM)Herd6993 Wrote:  I keep hearing this, but why would they? They are establishing all of the rules, control the payoffs, control the NCAA basketball tournament, the G-5 helps with scheduling/ gives them wins, and they can hide under the non-profit umbrella.

If they leave, you will see the IRS at the door.

The NCAA keeps the vast majority of the NCAA tourney money. There's a billion a year that the P5 creates 90-99% of, but gets only a minority of.

There's half a billion reasons to do it.

This and so much more.

1. The organizing principle of the NCAA is amateurism. It's now moot.

2. There needs to be standardization in enforcement. The NCAA has proven a colossal failure in this matter.

3. The basketball tournament isn't the only money maker being raped by the NCAA. The CWS is another and the Women's Softball Tournament another.

4. We need a national organization for officials who need to be paid a lot better if we are to discourage corruption in the games. The NCAA won't touch this issue.

5. The NCAA and AOC were once much more closely aligned. They can't even keep those standards aligned now.

6. The breakaway will be over revenue sure, but it will also be about separation in branding as older established large state schools seek to maintain their advantages in the recruitment of students, not just student athletes. Being an more exclusive set of schools in a formal way helps to accomplish this.

7. There is attrition coming to the ranks of all colleges and universities as the Baby Boom is nearly gone, their children are grown, and their children aren't having as many kids that will be hitting college in the next 10 years, if not already. As some privates opt out of high dollar athletic investment look for the 65 schools in the current P5 to consolidate down to around 56 to 60 and for the service academies for branding's sake to be willing to join in, and the most eligible G5's to be promoted. I think the breakaway might include as many as 72 schools or so. It will not be a separation of the top 56 but it will cut the FBS roughly in half.

8. The networks will reward a contained system where no FCS or low level FBS games are played. So look for the networks to silently be supportive of this move. I don't think the Big East basketball schools need fear exclusion but they would not be football members. I don't think the AAC schools have anything to worry about either with minor exceptions.

So yes they would split a half billion in basketball revenues from the tournament alone every year. But they would also keep a lot more of the CWS regionals, superregionals, and final event money, and do the same with softball.

Remember ESPN and FOX broadcast a lot more than just Football and Basketball, and that rights money sticks to the fingers of the NCAA which doles out money to all the smaller schools, but pockets a lot more. And while that money isn't nearly as much, without the basketball money (which they bank 70 million a year plus some into two different endowed accounts which combined are worth well over a Billion) the pittance they give the smaller schools would even be less.

Trusting the NCAA is a lot like trusting Congress with your tax dollars. They spend everything you send and want more. It's past time to move on.

I agree with all this.

When Memphis was seriously chasing the Big 12 a few years ago, they told us then that talks were in the works for the P5 and a small number of other schools to eventually break off from the NCAA.

Their thought back then was it would be the 65 or so P5 schools, plus maybe 15-30 more, for all sports. Generally speaking, that would be most of the AAC, the Big East for basketball, and a few others like BYU, Gonzaga, etc.

The two main goals were:

1. To acquire the lion's share of the March Madness money.

2. To rid themselves of the inconsistent, arbitrary rulings of the NCAA.

Will it happen? Who knows? But I know they have been discussing it privately for several years now. And just the other day, a board member from Minnesota, IIRC, mentioned it publicly, before being "corrected."
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2020 10:16 AM by TripleA.)
05-07-2020 10:13 AM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #48
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
If this were a serious threat, the NCAA would pacify them by paying out more tournament money.

Trying to start a whole new organization to monitor university athletics is a non-starter. Who wants to take on that headache? Are the universities going to take a risk after what just happened and is still happening? Athletics are not important, I'm sorry.

People must be going stir crazy.
05-07-2020 11:05 AM
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Post: #49
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-06-2020 12:15 PM)pablowow Wrote:  I do think this looks great ... but the numbers in my opinion will be even... so it’s 14 or 12 per region which could add the AAC


They don't want the AAC or any other mid majors getting a piece of the pie.
05-07-2020 11:11 AM
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Post: #50
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 11:11 AM)westwolf Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 12:15 PM)pablowow Wrote:  I do think this looks great ... but the numbers in my opinion will be even... so it’s 14 or 12 per region which could add the AAC


They don't want the AAC or any other mid majors getting a piece of the pie.

They may not "want" AAC members or MWC members but feel it could be advantageous (in some respects) to have some of them tag along — and thus invite them.

I never "want" to experience the sensation of the doctor checking my prostate, but I have it done because I know it is helpful.
05-07-2020 11:47 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #51
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 09:50 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-07-2020 02:53 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-07-2020 01:54 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 08:58 PM)46566 Wrote:  
(05-06-2020 06:28 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  I doubt that would be helpful for those left behind in the NCAA. Not that it would matter much either way. While a break away P5 might not generate much extra net revenue for the P5---there is little doubt in my mind it would be devastating for the revenue prospects of the schools remaining in the NCAA. I dont really know what the G5 would do. My guess is it would be time to go to court with a anti-trust case. Im not sure they would have much of a case, but at that point, they would clearly have absolutely nothing to lose.

Would a anti trust argument work with already preexisting alternatives to the NCAA out there? I mentioned the NAIA already but there's also the NCCAA. The P5 could just mention there a separate organization like the NAIA. I'd say the G5 plus the remaining FBS independent schools merge with the FCS and the only scholarship rule is the max football scholarship is 85. Basically give the conference room to determine it's scholarship requirements.

Are bowl games like the rose bowl contracted with the NCAA or conferences? If the big ten and PAC 12 leave could a redone D1 football have a rose bowl game between the MWC and Big Sky conference?

FWIW---the NCAA tried the "Well. Oklahoma could always join the NAIA" argument in 1984 and it didnt fly. Like I said, I dont know if the G5 would have much of a case--but their prospects in the diminished NCAA would be so bleak that they really would have nothing to lose by trying the anti-trust route.

Your legal theory is that if a group of people leave an organization that is a monopoly in its industry, to start a competing organization, the folks remaining in the monopoly should sue the departing folks and accuse them of being anti-competitive.

I’ve given no legal theory and have said they might not have much of a case. What I said is they would have nothing to lose by tossing the anti-trust grenade at that point. Frankly, the NCAA was a walking anti-trust violation during its last 2 decades. It’s going to be very difficult for any similar P5 organization/cartel created around the pillars of exclusivity and denial of access—-to avoid many of the same pit falls.

The NCAA was found to have committed anti-trust violations against its own member schools in the Oklahoma/Georgia case. They didn't harm schools that are not NCAA members.

March Madness is, to borrow your term, "a walking anti-trust violation" because it prohibits NCAA member schools from participating in competing postseason tournaments. The NCAA had to fork over a large sum of money to the NIT owners to prevent a court from finding that NCAA rule invalid. If that rule becomes relevant again, the NCAA will lose again.

Any such problems with a new organization would be between the organization and its own members. There wouldn't be issues with schools that are not members, just as the NCAA's potential antitrust issues are not with NAIA schools that don't belong to the NCAA.

No doubt lawyers will come up with their own clever arguments, but IMO if remaining NCAA schools wanted to sue P5-and-friends for starting a new organization, they would focus on the NCAA's $1 billion/year from March Madness. They'd argue, even if it's totally untrue, that the P5 conspired with CBS and Turner to cancel the March Madness TV contract after the P5 departed.
05-07-2020 01:42 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #52
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 01:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The NCAA was found to have committed anti-trust violations against its own member schools in the Oklahoma/Georgia case. They didn't harm schools that are not NCAA members.

Yes, I'm no lawyer either, but the whole point of anti-trust law with respect to cartels is that it is aimed against the formation and maintenance of cartels, the pillar of which is the use of threats to compel *continued* membership in a cartel. E.g., in 1984, the issue was the NCAA's threats against Oklahoma/Georgia to keep them signed on to the NCAA television deal when they were seeking to break away from it.

A lawsuit by the G5 against the P5 if the latter breaks away would be akin to if the rest of the NCAA had sued Oklahoma and Georgia for anti-trust, somehow claiming that their attempt to *leave* the NCAA TV deal violated those laws. That beggars belief, it turns the whole idea on its head.

Seemingly the only way that the P5 could be guilty of anti-trust would be if they broke away, and then engaged in anti-competitive behavior, like say threatening ESPN that if ESPN signs a contract with NCAA/G5 conferences then the P5 will not sign with them, threatening stadiums or merchandisers or advertisers or bowls with boycotts if they sign deals with G5 schools or conferences, etc.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2020 04:48 PM by quo vadis.)
05-07-2020 04:45 PM
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Post: #53
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 04:45 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(05-07-2020 01:42 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The NCAA was found to have committed anti-trust violations against its own member schools in the Oklahoma/Georgia case. They didn't harm schools that are not NCAA members.

Yes, I'm no lawyer either, but the whole point of anti-trust law with respect to cartels is that it is aimed against the formation and maintenance of cartels, the pillar of which is the use of threats to compel *continued* membership in a cartel. E.g., in 1984, the issue was the NCAA's threats against Oklahoma/Georgia to keep them signed on to the NCAA television deal when they were seeking to break away from it.

A lawsuit by the G5 against the P5 if the latter breaks away would be akin to if the rest of the NCAA had sued Oklahoma and Georgia for anti-trust, somehow claiming that their attempt to *leave* the NCAA TV deal violated those laws. That beggars belief, it turns the whole idea on its head.

Seemingly the only way that the P5 could be guilty of anti-trust would be if they broke away, and then engaged in anti-competitive behavior, like say threatening ESPN that if ESPN signs a contract with NCAA/G5 conferences then the P5 will not sign with them, threatening stadiums or merchandisers or advertisers or bowls with boycotts if they sign deals with G5 schools or conferences, etc.

I ought to ding you both! You should have made these arguments 8 years ago and saved this board endless butt hurt threads about the G5 suing the P5 for anti-trust. Every time consolidation or realignment talk starts up the ubiquitous "Anti-trust" claims of the G5 reach a fevered pitch and they were never credible. So shame on you for not introducing the logical and cogent line of legal reasoning 8 years sooner!
05-07-2020 04:57 PM
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EigenEagle Offline
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Post: #54
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
I started to reply to what JRsec's reply to me but then just decided to make my own independent post.

Here's my 4 reasons why a P5 breakaway won't happen (from least important to most important) without even mentioning anti-trust laws or tax exemption.

1. Scheduling in non-major sports. Most sports don't work like football or basketball where only 1/3 of the games are non-conference. In baseball (for example) it's typical to have 30 conference games with 56 (ish) total games. Now this may not be a problem if you're in the southeastern bloc of the SEC and ACC teams, but for much of the Power 5 it will get expensive traveling to only other Power 5s in these sports.

2. If you break away from the NCAA, you're still going to have a hierarchy that creates issues. You'll still have controversies over how to split money. Are the lower rungs of the Power 5 going to be okay knowing they'll need to significantly beef up spending to compete the blue bloods to avoid perennial 3-9 seasons in football which will kill fan interest and maybe put them at risk for being voted out at the next P5 tribal council? And will the blue bloods be okay with giving up home games against G5 and FCS teams to play non-conference P5 games to make TV money they'll have to share? If there weren't engineering and practical concerns you could make your stadium hold a quarter million and make more money off tickets with a P5-only schedule but as it stands now 2 payday games will make more than a single game against a major non-conference opponent. That's a big reason why you don't already have P5 scheduling requirements, because the current business model works better.

3. Conference TV networks. Presumably the plan is to reorganize P5 leagues into coherent geographic conferences to try and mitigate what I mentioned in #1 (though it won't help a lot). But there's a problem with this. Geographic oddities like Maryland and Rutgers in the Big Ten and Mizzou in the SEC don't exist because they want to make football or basketball stronger. They exist to boost the reach of their (very lucrative) conference TV networks into major markets to add subscribers. You kill that reach by going to regional conferences and thus kill a lot of that revenue.

And the biggest reason why a breakaway won't happen...

4. Congress. The fact is that the vast majority of the P5 and DI are public schools which gives government a lot of leverage over them. The members of congress don't represent the Power 5 schools in their state. They represent the schools in their districts and (for the senate) all of the schools in their state. They wouldn't go along with the breakaway and it wouldn't be difficult to stop it.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2020 09:53 PM by EigenEagle.)
05-07-2020 09:51 PM
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Post: #55
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 09:51 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  I started to reply to what JRsec's reply to me but then just decided to make my own independent post.

Here's my 4 reasons why a P5 breakaway won't happen (from least important to most important) without even mentioning anti-trust laws or tax exemption.

1. Scheduling in non-major sports. Most sports don't work like football or basketball where only 1/3 of the games are non-conference. In baseball (for example) it's typical to have 30 conference games with 56 (ish) total games. Now this may not be a problem if you're in the southeastern bloc of the SEC and ACC teams, but for much of the Power 5 it will get expensive traveling to only other Power 5s in these sports.

2. If you break away from the NCAA, you're still going to have a hierarchy that creates issues. You'll still have controversies over how to split money. Are the lower rungs of the Power 5 going to be okay knowing they'll need to significantly beef up spending to compete the blue bloods to avoid perennial 3-9 seasons in football which will kill fan interest and maybe put them at risk for being voted out at the next P5 tribal council? And will the blue bloods be okay with giving up home games against G5 and FCS teams to play non-conference P5 games to make TV money they'll have to share? If there weren't engineering and practical concerns you could make your stadium hold a quarter million and make more money off tickets with a P5-only schedule but as it stands now 2 payday games will make more than a single game against a major non-conference opponent. That's a big reason why you don't already have P5 scheduling requirements, because the current business model works better.

3. Conference TV networks. Presumably the plan is to reorganize P5 leagues into coherent geographic conferences to try and mitigate what I mentioned in #1 (though it won't help a lot). But there's a problem with this. Geographic oddities like Maryland and Rutgers in the Big Ten and Mizzou in the SEC don't exist because they want to make football or basketball stronger. They exist to boost the reach of their (very lucrative) conference TV networks into major markets to add subscribers. You kill that reach by going to regional conferences and thus kill a lot of that revenue.

And the biggest reason why a breakaway won't happen...

4. Congress. The fact is that the vast majority of the P5 and DI are public schools which gives government a lot of leverage over them. The members of congress don't represent the Power 5 schools in their state. They represent the schools in their districts and (for the senate) all of the schools in their state. They wouldn't go along with the breakaway and it wouldn't be difficult to stop it.

1. I strongly suspect that any breakaway will include schools who don't want to compete in football but have a particular sport they do want to compete in. Fullerton State and Fresno State in baseball come to mind as well as small programs like Stetson. Southern Miss and Missouri State would be 2 more such schools.

So the breakaway and conference structure would be set up for football. But no legitimacy could be had in a new hoops tournament without some very important mid majors and the Big East.

So I look to see inclusion of different schools for different sports.

2. It is true that we will likely never have parity in media salary as conferences. But we don't have that now and we aren't after it. What would happen with a breakaway is that the emerging conference would have guaranteed access to the playoffs for its football champion and would also be eligible for at large spots should we move to an 8 team playoff. That allows them to monetize their alumni base and their sponsors much more effectively. And I'm sure their media payouts would be more in line with what the Big 12 gets or a bit more than what the AAC currently receives.

As for those only in for baseball, softball, or hoops they would receive equal tournament revenue, equal media revenue for the conference they were associated with, and would be paid accordingly .

3. Your point is moot. Conference networks are not growing they are shrinking. Part of the reason for playing just other P5 schools in football is to raise the T2 content value to levels that surpass what the T3 was paying for these conference networks, which I'm not sure will continue to exist as they have. The programming is going to have to be a lot more appealing when no live events are on. Streaming apps via ESPN+ is going to cover those games for people buying the package. That's where some of the revenue will be recouped.

4. You are way off base in your assumptions here. Nobody in Congress works for the home folks now. They work for corporate America and if Disney wants the rearrangement they'll listen a lot more to the than they will to say the alumni of Troy or Georgia Southern. And if one representative from those districts speak up for those schools his buddies will let him rant and then they will wink at each other and do what the lobbyists pay them to do. So if you think these guys have the gonads to speak up great. But they will be in a vast minority for the reason just stated and because back home their constituents are still largely alumni of the oldest state flagship schools where they themselves graduated law school and attend games when they need to be seen publicly to be reelected. So good luck with all of that.

The bottom line is the NCAA is screwing us all out of revenue, even the small schools. They have well over 1 billion in endowed accounts. They bankroll 70 million plus per year on the tourney and they keep that money for 6 years before paying a share. That's a lot of cheddar in interest. Don't you think the average mid major could use that money they year they play in the tourney? Wouldn't that lump sum go a lot farther in improving the program? If you work this month and your employer kept your paycheck and doled out 1/6th of it a year and it took 6 years to get all of your tournament money could you live on that? Do you think that is fair? Or do you think that is graft? That's your NCAA and it is past time for it to be gone.
05-07-2020 10:14 PM
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Post: #56
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 11:05 AM)esayem Wrote:  If this were a serious threat, the NCAA would pacify them by paying out more tournament money.

Trying to start a whole new organization to monitor university athletics is a non-starter. Who wants to take on that headache? Are the universities going to take a risk after what just happened and is still happening? Athletics are not important, I'm sorry.

People must be going stir crazy.

Exactly. It's unclear in any of these elaborate breakaway scenarios what problems are being solved which the P5 can't solve by using their outsize influence in the NCAA and require the creation of a whole new governing body.

Want to increase TV rights by scheduling more P5 games? No one's stopping you. Unhappy with how violations are adjudicated? Create a new model and accept that member institutions sometimes actually will get punished, or else push for serious reform of the current model (e.g. NIL/amateurism). Don't like March Madness distributions? Propose a change, letting the NCAA and other schools know that they'll have $0 in revenue if the P5 is forced to breakaway.
05-08-2020 07:45 AM
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Post: #57
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 10:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The bottom line is the NCAA is screwing us all out of revenue, even the small schools. They have well over 1 billion in endowed accounts. They bankroll 70 million plus per year on the tourney and they keep that money for 6 years before paying a share. That's a lot of cheddar in interest. Don't you think the average mid major could use that money they year they play in the tourney? Wouldn't that lump sum go a lot farther in improving the program? If you work this month and your employer kept your paycheck and doled out 1/6th of it a year and it took 6 years to get all of your tournament money could you live on that? Do you think that is fair? Or do you think that is graft? That's your NCAA and it is past time for it to be gone.

No, this is the large schools wanting to keep all the money. Most of the money that the NCAA takes in does get distributed back to the schools just not in direct payments. It goes to fund championships and tournaments (in all three Divisions), payments to conferences (of all three divisions), scholarships, academic programs, etc. A relatively small amount goes to their overhead and governance. So if the schools were given back this money then they'd have to pony up for all these expenses themselves. That would be a huge net gain for the P5, a terrible burden on the G5 and mid major Div I basketball schools and pretty much turn Div II & III into intramural sports or put them out of business entirely. And you think congress would have nothing to say about that? Yes the P5 is subsidizing the rest of college athletics, mainly through the basketball tournament, they're already keeping the lions share of all football money. We've all been subsidizing these same land grant mostly public schools for decades if not centuries and elevated them to what they are now. This isn't NCAA greed, it's P5 greed. The NCAA needs a lot of reforms but if the P5 tries to do a money grab on March Madness they're going to kill most of college athletics and end up with an inferior product. It won't end well for them.
05-08-2020 08:09 AM
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Post: #58
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-08-2020 08:09 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(05-07-2020 10:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The bottom line is the NCAA is screwing us all out of revenue, even the small schools. They have well over 1 billion in endowed accounts. They bankroll 70 million plus per year on the tourney and they keep that money for 6 years before paying a share. That's a lot of cheddar in interest. Don't you think the average mid major could use that money they year they play in the tourney? Wouldn't that lump sum go a lot farther in improving the program? If you work this month and your employer kept your paycheck and doled out 1/6th of it a year and it took 6 years to get all of your tournament money could you live on that? Do you think that is fair? Or do you think that is graft? That's your NCAA and it is past time for it to be gone.

No, this is the large schools wanting to keep all the money. Most of the money that the NCAA takes in does get distributed back to the schools just not in direct payments. It goes to fund championships and tournaments (in all three Divisions), payments to conferences (of all three divisions), scholarships, academic programs, etc. A relatively small amount goes to their overhead and governance. So if the schools were given back this money then they'd have to pony up for all these expenses themselves. That would be a huge net gain for the P5, a terrible burden on the G5 and mid major Div I basketball schools and pretty much turn Div II & III into intramural sports or put them out of business entirely. And you think congress would have nothing to say about that? Yes the P5 is subsidizing the rest of college athletics, mainly through the basketball tournament, they're already keeping the lions share of all football money. We've all been subsidizing these same land grant mostly public schools for decades if not centuries and elevated them to what they are now. This isn't NCAA greed, it's P5 greed. The NCAA needs a lot of reforms but if the P5 tries to do a money grab on March Madness they're going to kill most of college athletics and end up with an inferior product. It won't end well for them.

Why should one group of schools subsidize another? How is that greed?
The biggest burden would be on Division II and III, not the G5.
05-08-2020 09:51 AM
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Post: #59
RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-08-2020 09:51 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(05-08-2020 08:09 AM)mturn017 Wrote:  
(05-07-2020 10:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  The bottom line is the NCAA is screwing us all out of revenue, even the small schools. They have well over 1 billion in endowed accounts. They bankroll 70 million plus per year on the tourney and they keep that money for 6 years before paying a share. That's a lot of cheddar in interest. Don't you think the average mid major could use that money they year they play in the tourney? Wouldn't that lump sum go a lot farther in improving the program? If you work this month and your employer kept your paycheck and doled out 1/6th of it a year and it took 6 years to get all of your tournament money could you live on that? Do you think that is fair? Or do you think that is graft? That's your NCAA and it is past time for it to be gone.

No, this is the large schools wanting to keep all the money. Most of the money that the NCAA takes in does get distributed back to the schools just not in direct payments. It goes to fund championships and tournaments (in all three Divisions), payments to conferences (of all three divisions), scholarships, academic programs, etc. A relatively small amount goes to their overhead and governance. So if the schools were given back this money then they'd have to pony up for all these expenses themselves. That would be a huge net gain for the P5, a terrible burden on the G5 and mid major Div I basketball schools and pretty much turn Div II & III into intramural sports or put them out of business entirely. And you think congress would have nothing to say about that? Yes the P5 is subsidizing the rest of college athletics, mainly through the basketball tournament, they're already keeping the lions share of all football money. We've all been subsidizing these same land grant mostly public schools for decades if not centuries and elevated them to what they are now. This isn't NCAA greed, it's P5 greed. The NCAA needs a lot of reforms but if the P5 tries to do a money grab on March Madness they're going to kill most of college athletics and end up with an inferior product. It won't end well for them.

Why should one group of schools subsidize another? How is that greed?
The biggest burden would be on Division II and III, not the G5.

The G5 rely pretty heavily on NCAA tourney payouts and if the P5 left those funds would dry up and we'd still have to finance the tournaments for all of our sports if we wanted to continue doing what we're doing. It'd be a huge burden.

Well a couple of reasons NCAA tournament money should be shared out more equitably among all of the NCAA participating schools including other divisions rather than the P5 try to steal it, we can call it subsidizing if we want, no doubt those big schools are the biggest media draw.

1. It's collegiate amateur athletics or has been at least. We should be playing for braggin rights and trophies only. Idealistic, I know.

2. A lot of tax money has gone to those land grant schools and their programs were subsidized by it for decades before college sports became lucrative.

3. A lot more people, schools & organizations than the P5 have made March Madness what it is, so why are the P5 entitled to more than they're getting?

Everybody was fine with the arrangement in the 80's & 90's. I wonder what's changed?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/2875...n-revenue/
05-08-2020 10:19 AM
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RE: When the P5 inevitably secede from the NCAA
(05-07-2020 09:51 PM)EigenEagle Wrote:  I started to reply to what JRsec's reply to me but then just decided to make my own independent post.

Here's my 4 reasons why a P5 breakaway won't happen (from least important to most important) without even mentioning anti-trust laws or tax exemption.

1. Scheduling in non-major sports. Most sports don't work like football or basketball where only 1/3 of the games are non-conference. In baseball (for example) it's typical to have 30 conference games with 56 (ish) total games. Now this may not be a problem if you're in the southeastern bloc of the SEC and ACC teams, but for much of the Power 5 it will get expensive traveling to only other Power 5s in these sports.

2. If you break away from the NCAA, you're still going to have a hierarchy that creates issues. You'll still have controversies over how to split money. Are the lower rungs of the Power 5 going to be okay knowing they'll need to significantly beef up spending to compete the blue bloods to avoid perennial 3-9 seasons in football which will kill fan interest and maybe put them at risk for being voted out at the next P5 tribal council? And will the blue bloods be okay with giving up home games against G5 and FCS teams to play non-conference P5 games to make TV money they'll have to share? If there weren't engineering and practical concerns you could make your stadium hold a quarter million and make more money off tickets with a P5-only schedule but as it stands now 2 payday games will make more than a single game against a major non-conference opponent. That's a big reason why you don't already have P5 scheduling requirements, because the current business model works better.

3. Conference TV networks. Presumably the plan is to reorganize P5 leagues into coherent geographic conferences to try and mitigate what I mentioned in #1 (though it won't help a lot). But there's a problem with this. Geographic oddities like Maryland and Rutgers in the Big Ten and Mizzou in the SEC don't exist because they want to make football or basketball stronger. They exist to boost the reach of their (very lucrative) conference TV networks into major markets to add subscribers. You kill that reach by going to regional conferences and thus kill a lot of that revenue.

And the biggest reason why a breakaway won't happen...

4. Congress. The fact is that the vast majority of the P5 and DI are public schools which gives government a lot of leverage over them. The members of congress don't represent the Power 5 schools in their state. They represent the schools in their districts and (for the senate) all of the schools in their state. They wouldn't go along with the breakaway and it wouldn't be difficult to stop it.

Who says the new group will ban games against the NCAA remainers? I imagine they will allow a certain number of such games.
05-08-2020 12:13 PM
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