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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
Funny, I thought the decision of whether a 'player was good for a system' was typically that of the GM, the head coach, and the specific coordinator.

I am glad to know the ultimate arbiter of that highly subjective decision is now a poll of players from the 'bleacherreport.com'. I learn something new every day.
04-29-2020 10:58 AM
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Post: #22
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 10:40 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 10:36 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I think what has been lost in the Kaepernick conversation is that he was an effective NFL quarterback until teams figured out how to stop what he could do, and then he couldn't adapt and remain effective. He was 17-6 in his first year and a half, when his unconventional talents prevailed Then he went 8-8, 2-6, and 1-10 as people figured out how to stop him. Basically, they let him have what he could do, knowing that couldn't beat them. His individual statistics were pretty decent even in those years, his QB ratings for the five years were 98, 92, 86, 78, and 91. But there are lots of QBs with decent stats that can't win games. He would now be a 33 year old QB who hasn't played in 4 years. He's making more money as a rabble rouser than he would make as a QB.

I'd say the same thing about Rohrwasser. If he turns into another Vinateri, it will be forgotten. If he is a mediocre kicker, he will be gone in two years or less.

HIs stated position is that it was a mistake, he rejects the three-percenter beliefs, and he is having the tattoo removed. That's totally different from Kaepernick's approach. I'm willing to take him at his word until he proves otherwise. Just as I take Kaepernick at his word until he proves otherwise. But Kaepernick's word is very different from Rohrwasser's.

NFL players are quite united in his ability as a QB:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2814...yer-survey

Granted... this doesn't say anything about what salary he would accept as a backup.

But when you guys says that he wasn't good enough for an NFL roster, actual NFL players disagree with this assessment.

When you say "you guys" does that include me? I think he is good enough to be an emergency QB or back up. I just don't think the baggage he brings is offset by the slight margin in ability he "may" bring to the team. Hiring a known troublemaker on the basis of a slight edge in potential is not a good use of the team's resources.

The Cowboys just spent a 7th round pick on a QB. Why do that when Kaep is available?
1. Younger. In three years, the pick may be ready to compete for the starter job. In three years, kaep will be out.
2. Cheaper.
3. Easier to deal with.
4. Less trouble for the team.
5. bigger upside


This is what mean by the total package.
04-29-2020 10:59 AM
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RiceLad15 Online
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Post: #23
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
Oh hey, now I get why Tanq was saying weird crap about my opinions on tattoos and sports.
04-29-2020 11:04 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 11:04 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Oh hey, now I get why Tanq was saying weird crap about my opinions on tattoos and sports.

Yep, and now you understand why I noted that mea culpa on my mistake. At least now you know that I am not enduring severe fractures with reality..... 03-wink (softball there....)
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 11:15 AM by tanqtonic.)
04-29-2020 11:09 AM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 10:58 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Funny, I thought the decision of whether a 'player was good for a system' was typically that of the GM, the head coach, and the specific coordinator.

I am glad to know the ultimate arbiter of that highly subjective decision is now a poll of players from the 'bleacherreport.com'. I learn something new every day.

I was commenting on Owl#s and your opinions that Kaepernick wasn't talented enough to play in the NFL. I don't think that you will find offense in my putting more stock in NFL players' opinions on the matter.
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 11:35 AM by Rice93.)
04-29-2020 11:34 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
Quote: [my] opinion[] that Kaepernick wasn't talented enough to play in the NFL.

Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 11:59 AM by tanqtonic.)
04-29-2020 11:59 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #27
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 10:40 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  NFL players are quite united in his ability as a QB:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2814...yer-survey
Granted... this doesn't say anything about what salary he would accept as a backup.
But when you guys says that he wasn't good enough for an NFL roster, actual NFL players disagree with this assessment.

And what percentage of those players every played against him or had him as a teammate? Probably what they know about him is what the press tells them about him. Yes he quarterbacked a team to a super bowl. So did Trent Dilfer. He also quarterbacked a team to 1-10 more recently.

He was a pretty good QB until defenses figured out how to let him have the things he could do and force him to do the things he couldn't do in order to beat them. And he couldn't do them. His career reminds me a lot of Vince Young's. As long as he could operate on the run, he could beat you. But force him to stay in the pocket, and he couldn't.
04-29-2020 12:01 PM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
Quote: [my] opinion[] that Kaepernick wasn't talented enough to play in the NFL.

Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)

I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.
04-29-2020 12:11 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
Quote: [my] opinion[] that Kaepernick wasn't talented enough to play in the NFL.

Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)

I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.

And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

As for 'stats and metrics', for a guy that 'wasn't looking at them', you certainly did fly to that particular point very explicitly right off the bat. But now you 'dont look at them'. Again, got it.
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 12:16 PM by tanqtonic.)
04-29-2020 12:15 PM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:01 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 10:40 AM)Rice93 Wrote:  NFL players are quite united in his ability as a QB:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2814...yer-survey
Granted... this doesn't say anything about what salary he would accept as a backup.
But when you guys says that he wasn't good enough for an NFL roster, actual NFL players disagree with this assessment.

And what percentage of those players every played against him or had him as a teammate? Probably what they know about him is what the press tells them about him. Yes he quarterbacked a team to a super bowl. So did Trent Dilfer. He also quarterbacked a team to 1-10 more recently.

He was a pretty good QB until defenses figured out how to let him have the things he could do and force him to do the things he couldn't do in order to beat them. And he couldn't do them. His career reminds me a lot of Vince Young's. As long as he could operate on the run, he could beat you. But force him to stay in the pocket, and he couldn't.

Again... no offense intended when I say that I put more stock in active NFL players opinions on his capabilities as an NFL QB than yours. It's not like you or Tanq played against him or had him as a teammate either?

I'm pretty sure that NFL players talk about and put in a lot of film study when it comes to other players in the league. I don't think their base of knowledge comes from the press. Do you really think players are that clueless about other players in the NFL?
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 12:28 PM by Rice93.)
04-29-2020 12:15 PM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
Quote: [my] opinion[] that Kaepernick wasn't talented enough to play in the NFL.

Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)

I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.

And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/
04-29-2020 12:23 PM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
Quote: [my] opinion[] that Kaepernick wasn't talented enough to play in the NFL.

Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)

I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.

And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

As for 'stats and metrics', for a guy that 'wasn't looking at them', you certainly did fly to that particular point very explicitly right off the bat. But now you 'dont look at them'. Again, got it.

Sorry... when exactly did I do this?

You're not referring to the player's poll that I linked?
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 12:27 PM by Rice93.)
04-29-2020 12:26 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. so.

But he does have the kneeling controversy, and that is part of what I call the total package. It is not that management disagrees with him. They just don't want the headaches, and he is not enough better than the alternatives to justify taking on the headaches.

If some QB were to announce he was a KKK member, how good would he have to be to offset headaches he would bring the team? More than a little, I am sure.
04-29-2020 12:27 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
Quote: [my] opinion[] that Kaepernick wasn't talented enough to play in the NFL.

Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)

I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.

And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 12:41 PM by tanqtonic.)
04-29-2020 12:36 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)

I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.

And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

Sorry if that's how it came across. I meant it to come across as I give NFL players' assessments (especially one who has a strong vested interest in QB play) more gravity than that of you and Owl#s. I should have been more clear.
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 12:42 PM by Rice93.)
04-29-2020 12:40 PM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 11:59 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Perhaps you may wish to re-read my comment on Kaep, his strengths, his weaknesses, and the quaint things called 'offensive schemes'. If you want to grossly mischaracterize those comments, feel free to do so. Like you have done above, mind you.

Hint: if you have a RPO-strength QB with high ratings, that doesnt make him an even sufficient choice for an air-raid scheme, or for a West Coast scheme. Warren Moon rocked the world in the run and shoot, putting him in a Walsh/Seiffert style offense would have been disastrous.

The funny thing is that the NFL has developed more towards an offensive philosophy more akin to Kaepernick's strengths. But Kaepernick has studiously refused to engage playing, and now has a gap of four years without a snap. My guess is that if had taken a backup elsewhere, which he was offered, there are more teams NOW looking for RPO-style quarterbacks -- which 4 years ago were not very common and those schemes were run only by a maybe two teams.

But you kind of blindly point to raw stats and player polls as *the* metrics, without ever bothering to consider the QB style and the schemes where he could be effective at that time in history.

So as an NFL GM, do you 'buy up the big stat QB' and revamp your entire roster and offensive scheme for that QB? Apparently you would. Others might say, lets get a QB that we dont have to upend the entire scheme and roster for. But funnily you dont consider that, and simply flail away that 'those who dont think Kaep a good fit' as saying 'Kaep cannot play'. Hopefully your background in French Art History provided you at least that level of ability to distinguish those positions. (yeah, there is an intentional troll there)

I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.

And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.

Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?
04-29-2020 12:50 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 12:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:11 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  I wasn't looking at stats and metrics. I was simply remembering that most people that I listened to when it was a hot issue felt that Kaepernick was a better QB (politics aside) than many QB's on current rosters and that without the kneeling controversy that he would still be in the NFL. This poll published in January, 2019 seems to confirm my recollection of NFL experts at the time.

Remember when Deshaun Watson went out with the ACL in 2017 and the Texans apparently considered Kaepernick but turned to Tom Savage instead? Some might say Kaepernick was a bitter fit as a Watson replacement (despite Savage's experience with the team). Deandre Hopkins seemed to think so.

And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.

Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?

Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2020 01:05 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
04-29-2020 01:02 PM
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Rice93 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 01:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.

Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?

Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.

No... I understand that and I agree with you that the teams need to assess talent and well as baggage. Certainly a better player with a ton of baggage (Antonio Brown?) may be a worse choice for a roster than a lesser player without said baggage.

However, over the course of this discussion the other guys argued that he was not good enough to play and/or that simply his talents were not a good fit for any team schematically regardless of the politics and controversy. NFL players disagree with their opinion.
04-29-2020 01:09 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 01:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:15 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  And in that one fell swoop you dismiss the opinions of all of the GM, the head coach, *and* the offensive coordinator, apparently. In favor of a wide receiver's opinion. Got it.

Thank you for making my point so clearly for me, 93.

Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.

Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?

Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.

Bingo.

Those trying to suggest Kaep isn't talented enough to be on a roster need to get their heads checked. He is certainly better than a number of QBs who currently fill a bench spot.

But regardless of where one stands on his protest, it's clear that he was initially out of the league because of his stance and the impact that signing it would have on the team, in a multitude of ways. Perhaps that has changed, and there are teams now willing to take a fly, but Kaep is saying no, because he now values the protest/out-of-NFL position more.

But it's a bit loony, IMO, to think that his talent is below that of every QB on a roster, and that his talent is what is holding him back.
04-29-2020 01:09 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Rohrwasser/Three Percenters
(04-29-2020 01:09 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 01:02 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:50 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:36 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(04-29-2020 12:23 PM)Rice93 Wrote:  Quite possibly the actual GM/head coach/and OC was one man (regardless of who held the actual titles at that time). Maybe the WR was correct in his assessment and BOB was wrong? It's not like BOB's track record of putting together a roster has been stellar...

In any case, the point is that you and Owl#s say he wasn't deserving of a shot at a job but Hopkins said he was. So it's more of my putting more stock in Hopkins' assesment rather than Owl#s and your assessment.

https://clutchpoints.com/texans-news-dea...t-in-2017/

Actually it is you giving Hopkins assessment more gravity than that of the combination of the GM, head coach, and OC. Funny that.

But making broad based implications on 'obviously inferior QBs' without much, if any, consideration of the offensive scheme and personnel serves your political rhetoric far better. As does substituting the opinions of players for GMs, head coaches, and O-coordinators, just as you have done here.

Those opinions were certainly influenced to some extent by the controversy of the situation as well as possible pressure from the owner. It's hard to separate that from a talent/scheme discussion. Are you saying that the fact that he didn't get any job offers over those first couple years is proof that every head coach/OC in the NFL thought he that was a poor scheme fit?

Every Coach, owner, and manager thought he was more trouble than he was worth. Not the same as saying he had no worth.

But he is not being punished for being in the wrong politically. he is punishing himself by bringing trouble to other people, his prospective bosses and employers.

You keep trying t make this all about athletic ability, and nothing more. But it isn't. It is akin to a college coach passing on a kid who has problems with domestic violence or sexual assault in favor of somebody maybe a tad less talented who does not.

It is about the trouble he brings. Period. And not only does he bring it, he keeps bringing it. Every game. He will infect the team, and he will alienate the fans. Not something you need from a benchwarmer. Not even from an All-Pro, which he isn't.

No... I understand that and I agree with you that the teams need to assess talent and well as baggage. Certainly a better player with a ton of baggage (Antonio Brown?) may be a worse choice for a roster than a lesser player without said baggage.

However, over the course of this discussion the other guys argued that he was not good enough to play and/or that simply his talents were not a good fit for any team schematically regardless of the politics and controversy. NFL players disagree with their opinion.

I am not a football junkie. I enjoy watching and rooting for my teams(Rice and Dallas), and I like talking as a fan on the conference board. But the technicalities are far beyond me. All I can say is I did read an article somewhere that said one of Kaep's deficiencies is a relative slowness in decision making. In the article, it said that was not a problem when he had a top notch O-line to operate behind, but as the quality of the O-line fell, (and time to make a decision fell) it became more of a problem. I think the question to ask the players, if they are the ones you think have the answers, are do they wish management would release their current back up QB and replace him with Kaep. I think we would have a lot less players choose that option.

I remember Kaep in college at Nevada, and I was a big fan of him then. But every year I see that QB A is taken in the draft before QB B, and Team C takes neither because they signed free agent D. There is a debate on our conference board right now about Mason Fine, the North Texas QB. ranking and judging players is both an art and a science, and that is just on their physical ability.

The guys who make the evaluations have chosen to pass on Kaep, and judging from Kaep's actions, that is fine with him.
04-29-2020 01:53 PM
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