(04-11-2020 09:52 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 01:33 AM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 10:35 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 07:52 PM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  I’m trying to make a list of the best non power 5 baseball programs over the last decade. The first few that come to mind are

Coastal Carolina
Cal State Fullerton
UC Santa Barbra
Rice
Southern Miss
Louisiana
East Carolina
Houston

How come I knew ULL would be on the list before I even looked at the post?

Because you saw the author of the post and we were #1 in the country 5 years ago, but no the main reason of this post is so I can gather information for the sunbelt C-USA realignment thread.

I know ULL has good baseball, but I forgot you guys were #1 a few years ago. That is something.

Yes sir then we choked in our own super regional to Old Miss and lost by 1.

Stony Brook
Florida A&M (seems Florida schools get the better players with so many Florida schools make it to the College World Series.)
Southern Illinois

(04-11-2020 10:37 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Stony Brook
Florida A&M (seems Florida schools get the better players with so many Florida schools make it to the College World Series.)
Southern Illinois

Florida A&M.......really they float around .500 most years, just because you won the conference to go to a regional most years doesn’t mean your good.

(04-11-2020 09:50 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:13 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:57 PM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:28 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  What about Saint John's baseball from the Big East? Went to the NCAA Tournament six times during the decade and was often ranked.

In my opinion the big East is just as much a power conference as the power 5 I should have added them.

Are you suggesting the Big East, like the five leagues in the P5, is a "comprehensive power conference"?

The BE — though offering, without question, power men's basketball — is not a "member" of the "exclusive club" that is the Power Five.

That's true. I'm a Big East supporter since 1980, but it is a "Power" conference strictly in basketball, and of course it is Football that basically defines what a true "Power" conference is. We have no say at all - less than the Sun Belt does - about football in the various councils, and it is football that drives the entire conference power structure bus.

The Big East is in no way shape or form a "P6" conference, meaning an overall peer of the P5. We just aren't.

This is 100 percent correct. And it is not a slap to the Big East by any means.

(04-11-2020 09:46 AM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:13 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:57 PM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:28 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  What about Saint John's baseball from the Big East? Went to the NCAA Tournament six times during the decade and was often ranked.

In my opinion the big East is just as much a power conference as the power 5 I should have added them.

Are you suggesting the Big East, like the five leagues in the P5, is a "comprehensive power conference"?

The BE — though offering, without question, power men's basketball — is not a "member" of the "exclusive club" that is the Power Five.

A league can be very strong (even "power") in a particular sport (e.g., the BE in men's hoops, the Big West and American in baseball, the National Collegiate Hockey Conference in hockey, etc.). But that fact does not make that league an overall and comprehensive "power conference." There are only five of those and we all know the five. And that "P5" designation, though driven by football, also involves academic budgets, endowments, living alumni, current collective enrollments, athletic department budgets, etc.

The Big East is not part of that overall, and very restrictive, "power structure." As such, I put Saint John's baseball "outside" the P5.

If this were men's basketball we are discussing, I would place Saint John's "inside" what most of us feel is a P6 for that one sport.

There is a distinction to be made.

The only reason the Big East is not a “P6” team is because yall do not support football. If y’all did y’all would be know as the P6 unless the athletic budgets are much less than I am anticipating they are.

If all 11 Big East members, hypothetically, began to sponsor I-A football, I doubt the league would magically and instantly be part of a "Power 6 comprehensive conference structure." And if so, then the American would be as deserving (with what would be vastly superior football to the BE in this scenario) of being part of a "Power 7."

The Big East is extremely prestigious on many levels. I've been a DePaul fan since 1987 and have developed a fondness for (and a somewhat personal attachment to) Georgetown the past few years. I enjoy following the conference and always sing its praises to detractors here in Nashville. The BE is one of a handful of leagues (including the American and Mountain West and perhaps the Ivy, A10 and West Coast) that, though not par tof the P5 club, is highly respected for a combo of academics and athletics.

But your point is interesting.

Kent State has had some good baseball teams.

Dallas Baptist seems like they're in the mix more often than not.

(04-13-2020 08:18 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  Kent State has had some good baseball teams.

Yeah, we're another example of "often the best baseball in the conference" as opposed to "often among the best baseball teams in the country".

(04-16-2020 12:51 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

To be fair, I thought that Babe Ruth was black until I was about 12. I distinctly remember the day I realized that that he played decades before Jackie Robinson, and thinking "everyone else must think that Babe Ruth isn't black."

(04-11-2020 11:44 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:46 AM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:13 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:57 PM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:28 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  What about Saint John's baseball from the Big East? Went to the NCAA Tournament six times during the decade and was often ranked.

In my opinion the big East is just as much a power conference as the power 5 I should have added them.

Are you suggesting the Big East, like the five leagues in the P5, is a "comprehensive power conference"?

The BE — though offering, without question, power men's basketball — is not a "member" of the "exclusive club" that is the Power Five.

A league can be very strong (even "power") in a particular sport (e.g., the BE in men's hoops, the Big West and American in baseball, the National Collegiate Hockey Conference in hockey, etc.). But that fact does not make that league an overall and comprehensive "power conference." There are only five of those and we all know the five. And that "P5" designation, though driven by football, also involves academic budgets, endowments, living alumni, current collective enrollments, athletic department budgets, etc.

The Big East is not part of that overall, and very restrictive, "power structure." As such, I put Saint John's baseball "outside" the P5.

If this were men's basketball we are discussing, I would place Saint John's "inside" what most of us feel is a P6 for that one sport.

There is a distinction to be made.

The only reason the Big East is not a “P6” team is because yall do not support football. If y’all did y’all would be know as the P6 unless the athletic budgets are much less than I am anticipating they are.

If all 11 Big East members, hypothetically, began to sponsor I-A football, I doubt the league would magically and instantly be part of a "Power 6 comprehensive conference structure." And if so, then the American would be as deserving (with what would be vastly superior football to the BE in this scenario) of being part of a "Power 7."

The Big East is extremely prestigious on many levels. I've been a DePaul fan since 1987 and have developed a fondness for (and a somewhat personal attachment to) Georgetown the past few years. I enjoy following the conference and always sing its praises to detractors here in Nashville. The BE is one of a handful of leagues (including the American and Mountain West and perhaps the Ivy, A10 and West Coast) that, though not par tof the P5 club, is highly respected for a combo of academics and athletics.

But your point is interesting.

Basketball programs can be great by hiring a few talented and dedicated individuals. Football requires more institutional resources than basketball.

Institutionally, the Big East schools are more similar to the Colonial than they are to the P5. They just don't have as many resources to commit to football that even the MWC or AAC have.

The average Big East school has about 11,000 students and an endowment of around $500 million. Only one has over $800 million endowment.

The average American Conference school has about 30,000 students and an endowment of about $700 million.

The average ACC school has about 24,000 students and an endowment of almost $2 billion.

The average Big 10 school has about 43,000 students and an endowment of about $3 billion.

(04-16-2020 07:55 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 11:44 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:46 AM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:13 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:57 PM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  In my opinion the big East is just as much a power conference as the power 5 I should have added them.

Are you suggesting the Big East, like the five leagues in the P5, is a "comprehensive power conference"?

The BE — though offering, without question, power men's basketball — is not a "member" of the "exclusive club" that is the Power Five.

A league can be very strong (even "power") in a particular sport (e.g., the BE in men's hoops, the Big West and American in baseball, the National Collegiate Hockey Conference in hockey, etc.). But that fact does not make that league an overall and comprehensive "power conference." There are only five of those and we all know the five. And that "P5" designation, though driven by football, also involves academic budgets, endowments, living alumni, current collective enrollments, athletic department budgets, etc.

The Big East is not part of that overall, and very restrictive, "power structure." As such, I put Saint John's baseball "outside" the P5.

If this were men's basketball we are discussing, I would place Saint John's "inside" what most of us feel is a P6 for that one sport.

There is a distinction to be made.

The only reason the Big East is not a “P6” team is because yall do not support football. If y’all did y’all would be know as the P6 unless the athletic budgets are much less than I am anticipating they are.

If all 11 Big East members, hypothetically, began to sponsor I-A football, I doubt the league would magically and instantly be part of a "Power 6 comprehensive conference structure." And if so, then the American would be as deserving (with what would be vastly superior football to the BE in this scenario) of being part of a "Power 7."

The Big East is extremely prestigious on many levels. I've been a DePaul fan since 1987 and have developed a fondness for (and a somewhat personal attachment to) Georgetown the past few years. I enjoy following the conference and always sing its praises to detractors here in Nashville. The BE is one of a handful of leagues (including the American and Mountain West and perhaps the Ivy, A10 and West Coast) that, though not par tof the P5 club, is highly respected for a combo of academics and athletics.

But your point is interesting.

Basketball programs can be great by hiring a few talented and dedicated individuals. Football requires more institutional resources than basketball.

Institutionally, the Big East schools are more similar to the Colonial than they are to the P5. They just don't have as many resources to commit to football that even the MWC or AAC have.

The average Big East school has about 11,000 students and an endowment of around $500 million. Only one has over $800 million endowment.

The average American Conference school has about 30,000 students and an endowment of about $700 million.

The average ACC school has about 24,000 students and an endowment of almost $2 billion.

The average Big 10 school has about 43,000 students and an endowment of about $3 billion.

Institutionally they may be more like the Colonial or Patriot. But in terms of TV share and basketball recruiting...

(04-16-2020 07:55 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 11:44 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:46 AM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  

(04-11-2020 09:13 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(04-10-2020 09:57 PM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  In my opinion the big East is just as much a power conference as the power 5 I should have added them.

Are you suggesting the Big East, like the five leagues in the P5, is a "comprehensive power conference"?

The BE — though offering, without question, power men's basketball — is not a "member" of the "exclusive club" that is the Power Five.

A league can be very strong (even "power") in a particular sport (e.g., the BE in men's hoops, the Big West and American in baseball, the National Collegiate Hockey Conference in hockey, etc.). But that fact does not make that league an overall and comprehensive "power conference." There are only five of those and we all know the five. And that "P5" designation, though driven by football, also involves academic budgets, endowments, living alumni, current collective enrollments, athletic department budgets, etc.

The Big East is not part of that overall, and very restrictive, "power structure." As such, I put Saint John's baseball "outside" the P5.

If this were men's basketball we are discussing, I would place Saint John's "inside" what most of us feel is a P6 for that one sport.

There is a distinction to be made.

The only reason the Big East is not a “P6” team is because yall do not support football. If y’all did y’all would be know as the P6 unless the athletic budgets are much less than I am anticipating they are.

If all 11 Big East members, hypothetically, began to sponsor I-A football, I doubt the league would magically and instantly be part of a "Power 6 comprehensive conference structure." And if so, then the American would be as deserving (with what would be vastly superior football to the BE in this scenario) of being part of a "Power 7."

The Big East is extremely prestigious on many levels. I've been a DePaul fan since 1987 and have developed a fondness for (and a somewhat personal attachment to) Georgetown the past few years. I enjoy following the conference and always sing its praises to detractors here in Nashville. The BE is one of a handful of leagues (including the American and Mountain West and perhaps the Ivy, A10 and West Coast) that, though not par tof the P5 club, is highly respected for a combo of academics and athletics.

But your point is interesting.

Basketball programs can be great by hiring a few talented and dedicated individuals. Football requires more institutional resources than basketball.

Institutionally, the Big East schools are more similar to the Colonial than they are to the P5. They just don't have as many resources to commit to football that even the MWC or AAC have.

The average Big East school has about 11,000 students and an endowment of around $500 million. Only one has over $800 million endowment.

The average American Conference school has about 30,000 students and an endowment of about $700 million.

The average ACC school has about 24,000 students and an endowment of almost $2 billion.

The average Big 10 school has about 43,000 students and an endowment of about $3 billion.

Good points and nice job with the stats. Not sure I've seen on this message board that direct comparison (between the BE and American) with enrollment and endowment. Helpful.

I live in Nashville and sometimes have to explain to SEC fans that the Big East is a power league in men's basketball specifically. I also sometimes find myself explaining to some Big East fans who live in Nashville that the American, in some respects, is a "better" conference overall (athletically and academically) than the Big East.

For many years, I have strongly enjoyed following Cincinnati, DePaul and Memphis (and, more recently, Georgetown). A lot of personal and family history with those four schools. So I would like to think I approach this in a fair and objective manner. I like both the BE and the American (and I follow the SEC closely due to Vanderbilt). The dynamics are interesting.

(04-11-2020 10:25 AM)Cajuns1252 Wrote:  Yes sir then we choked in our own super regional to Old Miss and lost by 1.

Bottom line is that winning a baseball World Series is very tough. Gotta survive a four-team regional, a two-team super-regional, and then the 8-team CWS.

Even with the double-elimination formats, baseball is such an uncertain sport that so much can go wrong at any stage even for a great team.

(04-16-2020 07:55 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Institutionally, the Big East schools are more similar to the Colonial than they are to the P5. They just don't have as many resources to commit to football that even the MWC or AAC have.

The average Big East school has about 11,000 students and an endowment of around $500 million. Only one has over $800 million endowment.

The average American Conference school has about 30,000 students and an endowment of about $700 million.

Well what you're really saying is that the Big East schools have considerably larger per-student endowments than do the AAC schools.

And the AAC schools have a very wide range. For example, schools like Cincy and Tulane each have endowments of almost $1.5 Billion. Tulsa and Houston are also over the $1 Billion mark.

In contrast, ECU and UCF have endowments of around $200 million. The two Florida behemoths, UCF and USF, with about 110,000 students between them, have a combined endowment less than the AAC average.

(04-16-2020 09:27 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-16-2020 07:55 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Institutionally, the Big East schools are more similar to the Colonial than they are to the P5. They just don't have as many resources to commit to football that even the MWC or AAC have.

The average Big East school has about 11,000 students and an endowment of around $500 million. Only one has over $800 million endowment.

The average American Conference school has about 30,000 students and an endowment of about $700 million.

Well what you're really saying is that the Big East schools have considerably larger per-student endowments than do the AAC schools.

And the AAC schools have a very wide range. For example, schools like Cincy and Tulane each have endowments of almost $1.5 Billion. Tulsa and Houston are also over the $1 Billion mark.

In contrast, ECU and UCF have endowments of around $200 million. The two Florida behemoths, UCF and USF, with about 110,000 students between them, have a combined endowment less than the AAC average.

Good point, Quo. Though the American schools, collectively, have a greater endowment dollar figure average, the number is not as impressive, relatively speaking, as the endowment dollar figure average for the Big East when enrollments are considered. That might be due, in large part, to the Big East schools having been "more well established," many more years (on average) before the American schools were "well established." As such, the BE may have more grads (dead and living) than the AAC (which could translate into donations, thus boosting the BE's endowment numbers to an impressive level; I'm not sure).

Regardless, I find the two leagues very similar in some respects yet extremely different in other ways. The BE has its advantages over the American and vice-a-versa.

You might be surprised at the number of folks in Nashville who do not understand that BE men's hoops are a power league. Some come around after I make my argument. Others refuse. One thing that helps the American (with these hard-core fans, many of them SEC apologists) is that football (and, to an extent, quality AAC baseball) keeps the AAC "in the eyes" of Nashville-based college sports fans for a good bit of the year.

(04-16-2020 11:08 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  You might be surprised at the number of folks in Nashville who do not understand that BE men's hoops are a power league. Some come around after I make my argument. Others refuse. One thing that helps the American (with these hard-core fans, many of them SEC apologists) is that football (and, to an extent, quality AAC baseball) keeps the AAC "in the eyes" of Nashville-based college sports fans for a good bit of the year.

No question, the Big East schools are collectively more elite than AAC schools, but the footprint is much tighter, it's a "northeast corridor" thing for the most part, so not necessarily on the radar in many places. I mean, you can go to sports bars all year here in Baton Rouge and never hear a Big East athletic story mentioned.

The AAC, because of football, has that advantage for sure.

(04-16-2020 02:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-16-2020 11:08 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  You might be surprised at the number of folks in Nashville who do not understand that BE men's hoops are a power league. Some come around after I make my argument. Others refuse. One thing that helps the American (with these hard-core fans, many of them SEC apologists) is that football (and, to an extent, quality AAC baseball) keeps the AAC "in the eyes" of Nashville-based college sports fans for a good bit of the year.

No question, the Big East schools are collectively more elite than AAC schools, but the footprint is much tighter, it's a "northeast corridor" thing for the most part, so not necessarily on the radar in many places. I mean, you can go to sports bars all year here in Baton Rouge and never hear a Big East athletic story mentioned.

The AAC, because of football, has that advantage for sure.

Same thing here. Football stirs the drink as people in South Carolina generally only care about college basketball for 1-2 months a year. Most people don’t start following until CFB is over, then they follow through March. Outside of the Charleston area there are very few Big East alums in the state.

(04-16-2020 02:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-16-2020 11:08 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  You might be surprised at the number of folks in Nashville who do not understand that BE men's hoops are a power league. Some come around after I make my argument. Others refuse. One thing that helps the American (with these hard-core fans, many of them SEC apologists) is that football (and, to an extent, quality AAC baseball) keeps the AAC "in the eyes" of Nashville-based college sports fans for a good bit of the year.

No question, the Big East schools are collectively more elite than AAC schools, but the footprint is much tighter, it's a "northeast corridor" thing for the most part, so not necessarily on the radar in many places. I mean, you can go to sports bars all year here in Baton Rouge and never hear a Big East athletic story mentioned.

The AAC, because of football, has that advantage for sure.

I would almost argue that "the Big East schools are significantly collectively more elite than AAC schools." That is one reason, among many, my family was so disappointed for our relative who could not attend Georgetown (after getting accepted) due to a severe health concern.

Having said that, I do feel the American has lots of strong academic schools (the three exceptions being Memphis, ECU and WSU).

Most folks would compare the trio of Tulane, SMU and the U.S. Naval Academy rather favorably to the top three in each of the P5, the Big East and the MWC.

(04-16-2020 04:29 PM)sctvman Wrote:  

(04-16-2020 02:08 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(04-16-2020 11:08 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  You might be surprised at the number of folks in Nashville who do not understand that BE men's hoops are a power league. Some come around after I make my argument. Others refuse. One thing that helps the American (with these hard-core fans, many of them SEC apologists) is that football (and, to an extent, quality AAC baseball) keeps the AAC "in the eyes" of Nashville-based college sports fans for a good bit of the year.

No question, the Big East schools are collectively more elite than AAC schools, but the footprint is much tighter, it's a "northeast corridor" thing for the most part, so not necessarily on the radar in many places. I mean, you can go to sports bars all year here in Baton Rouge and never hear a Big East athletic story mentioned.

The AAC, because of football, has that advantage for sure.

Same thing here. Football stirs the drink as people in South Carolina generally only care about college basketball for 1-2 months a year. Most people don’t start following until CFB is over, then they follow through March. Outside of the Charleston area there are very few Big East alums in the state.

Yep. I'm sure you are correct. As a long-time DePaul fan, it's hard to find college sports fans in Nashville who are bigger fans of hoops than football (as am I) and who love BE basketball. We have a decent number of Big East grads (and grads of Catholic schools in general) in this city but they get overshadowed by the SEC, Big Ten, Big 12 and ACC fans (lots of all those in Nashville).

Now if Notre Dame (Nashville is home to a decent number of Irish fans) returned to the Big East, ... the dynamic might change a bit.