Good to see ESPN giving the AAC some props in men's basketball. I don't consider the American a true "power" league in the sport but it's very close to being such with eight (seven once UConn leaves) major to high-major programs: Cincy, Houston, Tulsa, Wichita, Temple, Memphis, UConn and SMU. And I like the direction in which Tulane, UCF and USF hoops are headed. I'm OK with ECU forever (essentially) being a mid-major in basketball if the university can get its football back on track (some of those Pirate teams in the 1990s were quite impressive) and keep its long-successful baseball program strong.

(03-06-2020 09:54 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 02:21 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 03:47 AM)jedclampett Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

What do you find that is so interesting about this?

Is the point that, with the various changes to the structure of college sports, it has become much harder for bball teams from schools without major FB programs to win the NCAA tournament?

Perhaps it would suggest that the way things were before 1985 was fairer, because back then, a school's BB team could win a NCAA championship without having a FB program of any kind.

Those schools with FBS programs, and especially the P5 schools perhaps prefer it that way, since the idea of making the playing field fair is the very antithesis of their monopolistic modus operandi.

But the fact that Marquette University managed to win a national championship and to be one of the nation's top basketball schools for most of a decade in the 1970s sets them apart in this respect, and this makes the achievements of Marquette's basketball teams in that era even more remarkable and brilliant in comparison to all the teams that had the advantage of having FB teams in powerhouse conferences.

Al McGuire was a brilliant Head Coach. Those Marquette teams were fantastic!

While no one has gotten over the hump like Marquette in 1977 there have been schools that have been able to establish elite basketball to really good programs without having a football program of any kind. Gonzaga is obviously the first program that comes to mind. Ironically, St. Mary's program took off in the WCC once they dropped football following the 2003. I was at the St. Mary's-Lehigh game the Gael's last year.

Xavier has had some big success too. I know they haven't made it to the Final 4 but there's been numerous deep runs and I also think the Muskies reached #1 at some point in the last decade. They definitely spent a good amount of time in the Top 10.

Wichita State has been quite good the last 10-15 years and have history of success going back further. Marquette remains a tournament presence. The Golden Eagles have also enjoyed a major presence in the NBA with Wade and Butler. Seton Hall made the title game in '89 when they were a yearly force under Carlesimo. Since then the Pirates have been up and down. Providence has always been good with a quality coach (Pitino, Barnes, Gillian and Cooley in my time).

These are the teams to reach the Final 4 without football post '85...
'87 Providence
'89 Seton Hall (finalist)
'03 Marquette
'06 George Mason
'11 VCU
'13 Wichita State
'17 Gonzaga (finalist)
'18 Loyola (IL)

Feels a bit like UCONN should be on that list...

I'm aware this is a joke, but Uconn's national title in 99 does meet the criteria, and they won it again in 2004 when football was still transitional. Georgetown made the FF in 07 too.

EDIT: Also Butler's two championship game appearances.

(03-06-2020 09:54 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 02:21 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 03:47 AM)jedclampett Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

What do you find that is so interesting about this?

Is the point that, with the various changes to the structure of college sports, it has become much harder for bball teams from schools without major FB programs to win the NCAA tournament?

Perhaps it would suggest that the way things were before 1985 was fairer, because back then, a school's BB team could win a NCAA championship without having a FB program of any kind.

Those schools with FBS programs, and especially the P5 schools perhaps prefer it that way, since the idea of making the playing field fair is the very antithesis of their monopolistic modus operandi.

But the fact that Marquette University managed to win a national championship and to be one of the nation's top basketball schools for most of a decade in the 1970s sets them apart in this respect, and this makes the achievements of Marquette's basketball teams in that era even more remarkable and brilliant in comparison to all the teams that had the advantage of having FB teams in powerhouse conferences.

Al McGuire was a brilliant Head Coach. Those Marquette teams were fantastic!

While no one has gotten over the hump like Marquette in 1977 there have been schools that have been able to establish elite basketball to really good programs without having a football program of any kind. Gonzaga is obviously the first program that comes to mind. Ironically, St. Mary's program took off in the WCC once they dropped football following the 2003. I was at the St. Mary's-Lehigh game the Gael's last year.

Xavier has had some big success too. I know they haven't made it to the Final 4 but there's been numerous deep runs and I also think the Muskies reached #1 at some point in the last decade. They definitely spent a good amount of time in the Top 10.

Wichita State has been quite good the last 10-15 years and have history of success going back further. Marquette remains a tournament presence. The Golden Eagles have also enjoyed a major presence in the NBA with Wade and Butler. Seton Hall made the title game in '89 when they were a yearly force under Carlesimo. Since then the Pirates have been up and down. Providence has always been good with a quality coach (Pitino, Barnes, Gillian and Cooley in my time).

These are the teams to reach the Final 4 without football post '85...
'87 Providence
'89 Seton Hall (finalist)
'03 Marquette
'06 George Mason
'11 VCU
'13 Wichita State
'17 Gonzaga (finalist)
'18 Loyola (IL)

Feels a bit like UCONN should be on that list...

They still played football in I-AA/ FCS. The programs listed above either have none or did not at the time of their final four appearance. Hence the reason you don't see Villanova on there. Unless of course you're throwing shade at UCONN, of which I cannot tell?

(03-08-2020 12:01 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 09:54 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 02:21 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 03:47 AM)jedclampett Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

What do you find that is so interesting about this?

Is the point that, with the various changes to the structure of college sports, it has become much harder for bball teams from schools without major FB programs to win the NCAA tournament?

Perhaps it would suggest that the way things were before 1985 was fairer, because back then, a school's BB team could win a NCAA championship without having a FB program of any kind.

Those schools with FBS programs, and especially the P5 schools perhaps prefer it that way, since the idea of making the playing field fair is the very antithesis of their monopolistic modus operandi.

But the fact that Marquette University managed to win a national championship and to be one of the nation's top basketball schools for most of a decade in the 1970s sets them apart in this respect, and this makes the achievements of Marquette's basketball teams in that era even more remarkable and brilliant in comparison to all the teams that had the advantage of having FB teams in powerhouse conferences.

Al McGuire was a brilliant Head Coach. Those Marquette teams were fantastic!

While no one has gotten over the hump like Marquette in 1977 there have been schools that have been able to establish elite basketball to really good programs without having a football program of any kind. Gonzaga is obviously the first program that comes to mind. Ironically, St. Mary's program took off in the WCC once they dropped football following the 2003. I was at the St. Mary's-Lehigh game the Gael's last year.

Xavier has had some big success too. I know they haven't made it to the Final 4 but there's been numerous deep runs and I also think the Muskies reached #1 at some point in the last decade. They definitely spent a good amount of time in the Top 10.

Wichita State has been quite good the last 10-15 years and have history of success going back further. Marquette remains a tournament presence. The Golden Eagles have also enjoyed a major presence in the NBA with Wade and Butler. Seton Hall made the title game in '89 when they were a yearly force under Carlesimo. Since then the Pirates have been up and down. Providence has always been good with a quality coach (Pitino, Barnes, Gillian and Cooley in my time).

These are the teams to reach the Final 4 without football post '85...
'87 Providence
'89 Seton Hall (finalist)
'03 Marquette
'06 George Mason
'11 VCU
'13 Wichita State
'17 Gonzaga (finalist)
'18 Loyola (IL)

Feels a bit like UCONN should be on that list...

I'm aware this is a joke, but Uconn's national title in 99 does meet the criteria, and they won it again in 2004 when football was still transitional. Georgetown made the FF in 07 too.

EDIT: Also Butler's two championship game appearances.

It was specifically noted that the teams listed DO NOT/DID NOT have any football program of any kind.

UConn had a D1 (FCS) football program in 1999. In 2004 they were officially members of the Big East, finished 8-4 and played in the Motor City Bowl. Butler has had a D1 (FCS) football program since 1993. Likewise with Georgetown. Both Butler's and Georgetown's football program's classification were impacted by the "Dayton Rule".

For the life of me I don't get why football classification is so hard to understand.

(03-08-2020 01:26 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  It was specifically noted that the teams listed DO NOT/DID NOT have any football program of any kind.

UConn had a D1 (FCS) football program in 1999. Butler has had a D1 (FCS) football program since 1993. Likewise with Georgetown. Both Butler's and Georgetown's football program's classification were impacted by the "Dayton Rule".

For the life of me I don't get why football classification is so hard to understand.

Are you sure? Because the post that started that particular chain...

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

... references Villanova and UConn, and thus insinuates that 1-AA/1-A is the dividing line being referenced. I just figured I wouldn't be a pedant about it.

Besides, the core concept is the ability to compete in basketball at a national level without the (assumed) visibility boost of big-time (however you might define it) football. Unless you're going to tell me that the non-scholarship programs at Butler and Georgetown playing in high school stadiums are somehow giving the basketball programs big boosts to their national name recognition, I don't see how they're relevant here.

(03-08-2020 01:42 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 01:26 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  It was specifically noted that the teams listed DO NOT/DID NOT have any football program of any kind.

UConn had a D1 (FCS) football program in 1999. Butler has had a D1 (FCS) football program since 1993. Likewise with Georgetown. Both Butler's and Georgetown's football program's classification were impacted by the "Dayton Rule".

For the life of me I don't get why football classification is so hard to understand.

Are you sure? Because the post that started that particular chain...

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

... references Villanova and UConn, and thus insinuates that 1-AA/1-A is the dividing line being referenced. I just figured I wouldn't be a pedant about it.

Besides, the core concept is the ability to compete in basketball at a national level without the (assumed) visibility boost of big-time (however you might define it) football. Unless you're going to tell me that the non-scholarship programs at Butler and Georgetown playing in high school stadiums are somehow giving the basketball programs big boosts to their national name recognition, I don't see how they're relevant here.

I am 100% sure what I posted is correct based on how the thread evolved.

There's a really easy rule to follow for schools who play Division 1 basketball when it comes to football. There's 3 simple options....
1. Division 1 FBS
2. Division 1 FCS
3. No Football

That's it! The reason for that is once again, the "Dayton Rule"....

(03-08-2020 01:47 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 01:42 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 01:26 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  It was specifically noted that the teams listed DO NOT/DID NOT have any football program of any kind.

UConn had a D1 (FCS) football program in 1999. Butler has had a D1 (FCS) football program since 1993. Likewise with Georgetown. Both Butler's and Georgetown's football program's classification were impacted by the "Dayton Rule".

For the life of me I don't get why football classification is so hard to understand.

Are you sure? Because the post that started that particular chain...

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

... references Villanova and UConn, and thus insinuates that 1-AA/1-A is the dividing line being referenced. I just figured I wouldn't be a pedant about it.

Besides, the core concept is the ability to compete in basketball at a national level without the (assumed) visibility boost of big-time (however you might define it) football. Unless you're going to tell me that the non-scholarship programs at Butler and Georgetown playing in high school stadiums are somehow giving the basketball programs big boosts to their national name recognition, I don't see how they're relevant here.

I am 100% sure what I posted is correct based on how the thread evolved.

There's a really easy rule to follow for schools who play Division 1 basketball when it comes to football. There's 3 simple options....
1. Division 1 FBS
2. Division 1 FCS
3. No Football

That's it! The reason for that is once again, the "Dayton Rule"....

So you're suggesting that the non-scholarship football teams that Butler and Georgetown have in the Pioneer and Patriot leagues count as "major football programs" that give the basketball teams a leg up in recruiting? You're similarly suggesting that Wichita would somehow be more likely to succeed at basketball if they fielded a glorified club football team in front of 500 people that's never on TV?

(03-08-2020 02:10 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 01:47 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 01:42 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 01:26 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  It was specifically noted that the teams listed DO NOT/DID NOT have any football program of any kind.

UConn had a D1 (FCS) football program in 1999. Butler has had a D1 (FCS) football program since 1993. Likewise with Georgetown. Both Butler's and Georgetown's football program's classification were impacted by the "Dayton Rule".

For the life of me I don't get why football classification is so hard to understand.

Are you sure? Because the post that started that particular chain...

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

... references Villanova and UConn, and thus insinuates that 1-AA/1-A is the dividing line being referenced. I just figured I wouldn't be a pedant about it.

Besides, the core concept is the ability to compete in basketball at a national level without the (assumed) visibility boost of big-time (however you might define it) football. Unless you're going to tell me that the non-scholarship programs at Butler and Georgetown playing in high school stadiums are somehow giving the basketball programs big boosts to their national name recognition, I don't see how they're relevant here.

I am 100% sure what I posted is correct based on how the thread evolved.

There's a really easy rule to follow for schools who play Division 1 basketball when it comes to football. There's 3 simple options....
1. Division 1 FBS
2. Division 1 FCS
3. No Football

That's it! The reason for that is once again, the "Dayton Rule"....

So you're suggesting that the non-scholarship football teams that Butler and Georgetown have in the Pioneer and Patriot leagues count as "major football programs" that give the basketball teams a leg up in recruiting? You're similarly suggesting that Wichita would somehow be more likely to succeed at basketball if they fielded a glorified club football team in front of 500 people that's never on TV?

Not at all...

I simply answered "Are you sure? Because the post that started that particular chain..." relative to schools who Do NOT play football. That's it.

Nothing to do with exposure.....

But if we are going that way, Georgetown chooses not to offer scholarships despite the PL allowing 60 of them. If the Hoyas were to improve their program and make the playoffs they might show-up on ESPN against NDSU like Colgate did in 2018 (following a win over JMU) when the Raiders won the PL. Butler did play NDSU last year in front of 34k at Target Field in Minneapolis. There's plenty of avenues to be seen and heard. A great way lately is to hitch your wagon to the NDSU Bison freight train...

(03-08-2020 02:28 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  Not at all...

I simply answered "Are you sure? Because the post that started that particular chain..." relative to schools who Do NOT play football. That's it.

Nothing to do with exposure.....

Well, you say that, but....

(03-05-2020 12:36 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:12 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

Villanova's football program is D1. UConn's football program has been D1 since 1978 iirc.

You know what I meant.

... it's been clarified that that's not what the discussion was about.

(03-08-2020 02:46 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 02:28 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  Not at all...

I simply answered "Are you sure? Because the post that started that particular chain..." relative to schools who Do NOT play football. That's it.

Nothing to do with exposure.....

Well, you say that, but....

(03-05-2020 12:36 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:12 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

Villanova's football program is D1. UConn's football program has been D1 since 1978 iirc.

You know what I meant.

... it's been clarified that that's not what the discussion was about.

Now you're just trolling me.

That Cinci fan said wrongly UConn and Villanova did not have a D1 program when they won titles. I pointed out they did in fact have a D1 1-AA/FCS programs when the hoops titles were achieved. He said, "you know what I meant". To which i said I did not because for some reason there's a lot of people who don't know the difference between D1 FCS and D2. This has always perplexed me. From there the convo evolved to school's who do not have football programs at all.

That's literally the "chain of events"...

(03-08-2020 02:52 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  Now you're just trolling me.

That Cinci fan said wrongly UConn and Villanova did not have a D1 program when they won titles. I pointed out they did in fact have a D1 1-AA/FCS programs when the hoops titles were achieved. He said, "you know what I meant". To which i said I did not because for some reason there's a lot of people who don't know the difference between D1 FCS and D2. This has always perplexed me. From there the convo evolved to school's who do not have football programs at all.

That's literally the "chain of events"...

Given that the original poster named the two non-1A/FBS schools to win national championships in the timeframe specified, and the tendency of some to conflate FBS and D1 as a whole, a knowledgeable fan would reasonably infer what they meant. Congratulations on understanding that there are subdivisions in D1 though, I understand it too. I just thought it was pedantic to harp on that point.

This thread got derailed fast.

(03-08-2020 03:12 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 02:52 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  Now you're just trolling me.

That Cinci fan said wrongly UConn and Villanova did not have a D1 program when they won titles. I pointed out they did in fact have a D1 1-AA/FCS programs when the hoops titles were achieved. He said, "you know what I meant". To which i said I did not because for some reason there's a lot of people who don't know the difference between D1 FCS and D2. This has always perplexed me. From there the convo evolved to school's who do not have football programs at all.

That's literally the "chain of events"...

Given that the original poster named the two non-1A/FBS schools to win national championships in the timeframe specified, and the tendency of some to conflate FBS and D1 as a whole, a knowledgeable fan would reasonably infer what they meant. Congratulations on understanding that there are subdivisions in D1 though, I understand it too. I just thought it was pedantic to harp on that point.

I was just making sure everything was on point. There were definitely some factual inaccuracies that I wanted to clarify. As a UConn fan I was surprised you had their transitional period (2000 through 2002) wrong i.e. they were fully FBS in 2004 and bowl eligible. Just dotting "I's" and crossing the "T's".

(03-08-2020 08:16 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 03:12 PM)Bogg Wrote:  

(03-08-2020 02:52 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  Now you're just trolling me.

That Cinci fan said wrongly UConn and Villanova did not have a D1 program when they won titles. I pointed out they did in fact have a D1 1-AA/FCS programs when the hoops titles were achieved. He said, "you know what I meant". To which i said I did not because for some reason there's a lot of people who don't know the difference between D1 FCS and D2. This has always perplexed me. From there the convo evolved to school's who do not have football programs at all.

That's literally the "chain of events"...

Given that the original poster named the two non-1A/FBS schools to win national championships in the timeframe specified, and the tendency of some to conflate FBS and D1 as a whole, a knowledgeable fan would reasonably infer what they meant. Congratulations on understanding that there are subdivisions in D1 though, I understand it too. I just thought it was pedantic to harp on that point.

I was just making sure everything was on point. There were definitely some factual inaccuracies that I wanted to clarify. As a UConn fan I was surprised you had their transitional period (2000 through 2002) wrong i.e. they were fully FBS in 2004 and bowl eligible. Just dotting "I's" and crossing the "T's".

Okay, fine, how about this: Given the vast difference between the visibility of FBS vs FCS programs, and even major differences between the different levels of FBS, football versus "no football" in a strict sense is a pretty meaningless metric. Nobody reasonable would equate the Marist Red Foxes non-scholarship football program to, say, Auburn football in terms of a visibility/name recognition bump gained by their respective basketball teams.

The much more meaningful distinction is between FBS football schools and everyone else (and even then, it doesn't really work at the bottom of FBS), which is what BcatMatt was clearly referring to when noting that Villanova and UConn have been the only exceptions over the last 35 years.

(03-05-2020 10:57 AM)BraveKnight Wrote:  https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket...g-carousel
It’s ESPN+, so I’ll quote the part where they mention us.

“17. If there's a job outside the power-seven schools to generate some national headlines, it could be Grand Canyon. Dan Majerle hasn't done a bad job with the Antelopes, but with the money the school has spent on the basketball program, zero NCAA tournaments in seven seasons -- and a 12-17 record this season -- simply isn't getting it done. The program has all the resources needed to build a successful program, and I'd expect the coaching search to reflect that. Saint Mary's boss Randy Bennett, an Arizona native, likely would be the first call. They could also look to make a massive splash and try to pursue someone along the lines of Rick Pitino.

18. Will any high-major schools make a move earlier than expected? There are always a couple of moves that feel a bit premature, with last year seeing St. John's, Arkansas and Alabama all changing coaches a year earlier than projected. Outside of the seven we've named so far, it's hard to find anyone who could be in trouble. It seems far-fetched to think that Utah (Larry Krystkowiak) or South Carolina (Frank Martin) would make a move, same with the AAC trio of Tulsa (Frank Haith), SMU (Tim Jankovich) and South Florida (Brian Gregory).”

Not sure in what universe Brian Gregory is even remotely on the hot seat.

He has a great team coming back next year with a fully mended Yetna and top ranked AAC recruiting class...nevermind finishing the year strong. If this team hadn't lost Yetna before the start of the season, I am pretty sure USF is contention for an at large bid. We have lost so many close games this year.

(03-06-2020 02:21 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  

(03-06-2020 03:47 AM)jedclampett Wrote:  

(03-05-2020 12:09 PM)BcatMatt13 Wrote:  Another thing I find interesting is that Villanova has the last 3 national championships for schools who currently don’t have a D1 football program. Only them and UConn (before moving to D1) have been able to win the NCAA Tournament without a football program since 1985.

What do you find that is so interesting about this?

Is the point that, with the various changes to the structure of college sports, it has become much harder for bball teams from schools without major FB programs to win the NCAA tournament?

Perhaps it would suggest that the way things were before 1985 was fairer, because back then, a school's BB team could win a NCAA championship without having a FB program of any kind.

Those schools with FBS programs, and especially the P5 schools perhaps prefer it that way, since the idea of making the playing field fair is the very antithesis of their monopolistic modus operandi.

But the fact that Marquette University managed to win a national championship and to be one of the nation's top basketball schools for most of a decade in the 1970s sets them apart in this respect, and this makes the achievements of Marquette's basketball teams in that era even more remarkable and brilliant in comparison to all the teams that had the advantage of having FB teams in powerhouse conferences.

Al McGuire was a brilliant Head Coach. Those Marquette teams were fantastic!

While no one has gotten over the hump like Marquette in 1977 there have been schools that have been able to establish elite basketball to really good programs without having a football program of any kind. Gonzaga is obviously the first program that comes to mind. Ironically, St. Mary's program took off in the WCC once they dropped football following the 2003. I was at the St. Mary's-Lehigh game the Gael's last year.

Xavier has had some big success too. I know they haven't made it to the Final 4 but there's been numerous deep runs and I also think the Muskies reached #1 at some point in the last decade. They definitely spent a good amount of time in the Top 10.

Wichita State has been quite good the last 10-15 years and have history of success going back further. Marquette remains a tournament presence. The Golden Eagles have also enjoyed a major presence in the NBA with Wade and Butler. Seton Hall made the title game in '89 when they were a yearly force under Carlesimo. Since then the Pirates have been up and down. Providence has always been good with a quality coach (Pitino, Barnes, Gillian and Cooley in my time).

These are the teams to reach the Final 4 without football post '85...
'87 Providence
'89 Seton Hall (finalist)
'03 Marquette
'06 George Mason
'11 VCU
'13 Wichita State
'17 Gonzaga (finalist)
'18 Loyola (IL)

Great info - thanks for posting this.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basket...sery-index
Another article where ESPN includes the AAC as a power conference.