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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-19-2020 08:43 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-18-2020 09:12 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(01-18-2020 07:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'm still trying to understand why paper ballots would be a good idea and I mean that seriously.

I'm sure that ranked-choice could be done electronically... but I'm wanting to know why anyone thinks paper is safer?

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/...ology/amp/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/opinions/...index.html

In short:

Quote:Without a paper audit trail, it can be difficult to detect errors or breaches in the voting machine’s software or hardware, possibly allowing an incursion into American voting systems to go unnoticed. Even if an error is found, performing an audit of a paperless system can be difficult or impossible given a lack of redundant records to verify vote totals.


Yay. We bravely leave the future and go back to Florida 2000 and the hanging chads. Even with the paper trail, Democrats still do not accept the recount. “Selected, not elected”.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2020 10:11 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
01-19-2020 10:09 AM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-19-2020 10:09 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 08:43 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-18-2020 09:12 PM)mrbig Wrote:  
(01-18-2020 07:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I'm still trying to understand why paper ballots would be a good idea and I mean that seriously.

I'm sure that ranked-choice could be done electronically... but I'm wanting to know why anyone thinks paper is safer?

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/...ology/amp/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/opinions/...index.html

In short:

Quote:Without a paper audit trail, it can be difficult to detect errors or breaches in the voting machine’s software or hardware, possibly allowing an incursion into American voting systems to go unnoticed. Even if an error is found, performing an audit of a paperless system can be difficult or impossible given a lack of redundant records to verify vote totals.


Yay. We bravely leave the future and go back to Florida 2000 and the hanging chads. Even with the paper trail, Democrats still do not accept the recount. “Selected, not elected”.

No need to get unnecessarily partisan. Just because the hanging chad system had its weaknesses doesn’t mean a paper printout of a ballot is a bad idea for recounts, vote audits, etc.
01-19-2020 12:46 PM
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tanqtonic Online
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Post: #43
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
Each system has its inherent drawbacks.

For e-voting --- there is *zero* audit trail. There is literally zero way to determine if an outside influence has electronically altered any particular machine.

For paper ballots --- there is the issue of physically determining a vote. 99.99% of the time the vote is determinable, and the ballots are only needed for recount purposes in something like less than a .5% of the time.

A Florida 2000 situation is probably a once in a lifetime event, if even that.

Florida 2000 and Minnesota Senate in 2008(?) are literally votes that were so extraordinarily close that the 'slop' involved with ballots was greater than the first-announced vote difference.

It is kind of a 'pick your poison' scenario.
(This post was last modified: 01-19-2020 01:00 PM by tanqtonic.)
01-19-2020 12:57 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-19-2020 12:57 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Each system has its inherent drawbacks.

For e-voting --- there is *zero* audit trail. There is literally zero way to determine if an outside influence has electronically altered any particular machine.

For paper ballots --- there is the issue of physically determining a vote. 99.99% of the time the vote is determinable, and the ballots are only needed for recount purposes in something like less than a .5% of the time.

A Florida 2000 situation is probably a once in a lifetime event, if even that.

Florida 2000 and Minnesota Senate in 2008(?) are literally votes that were so extraordinarily close that the 'slop' involved with ballots was greater than the first-announced vote difference.

It is kind of a 'pick your poison' scenario.

Yeah, no single option is perfect. I learn more towards the hard-copy backup approaches because of the increasing sophistication of cyber attacks.
01-19-2020 01:03 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-19-2020 01:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 12:57 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Each system has its inherent drawbacks.

For e-voting --- there is *zero* audit trail. There is literally zero way to determine if an outside influence has electronically altered any particular machine.

For paper ballots --- there is the issue of physically determining a vote. 99.99% of the time the vote is determinable, and the ballots are only needed for recount purposes in something like less than a .5% of the time.

A Florida 2000 situation is probably a once in a lifetime event, if even that.

Florida 2000 and Minnesota Senate in 2008(?) are literally votes that were so extraordinarily close that the 'slop' involved with ballots was greater than the first-announced vote difference.

It is kind of a 'pick your poison' scenario.

Yeah, no single option is perfect. I learn more towards the hard-copy backup approaches because of the increasing sophistication of cyber attacks.

Do we not also have an increasing sophistication of cyber defenses?
01-19-2020 01:12 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
I vote on a black box machine where there is no paper trail. I have no idea how they would run a "recount" as the machine would spit out the same results it spit out the first time. If there is no hacking, no software development failures, etc., then everything should work fine. But I would feel much better if I received a paper printout after my vote that I could use to verify and that could be used in a recount/audit scenario.
01-19-2020 01:39 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-19-2020 01:39 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I vote on a black box machine where there is no paper trail. I have no idea how they would run a "recount" as the machine would spit out the same results it spit out the first time. If there is no hacking, no software development failures, etc., then everything should work fine. But I would feel much better if I received a paper printout after my vote that I could use to verify and that could be used in a recount/audit scenario.

I guess for a recount, we could call in all the thousands of printouts...

If we cannot protect our ballot machines from hackers, then I am all of a sudden much more worried about my bank accounts.
01-19-2020 02:57 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
ETA: Thank you for responding to the 'why'

It seems fairly easy for me.

Machines can be easily and independently tested for flaws before, during and after the votes are cast. I mean, after every voter, run a quick scan on every machine for functionality. It's hard to hack what you don't touch, so if you're talking literally tens of thousands of machines, you'd have to touch tens of thousands of them if they weren't networked. No reason to network them that I can see... so much harder to hack.

I didn't read the links but I note they are a blog and an opinion, which while potentially vastly more informed than mine... still just an opinion.

The evidence is that we have yet to discover an actual case of an electronically hacked vote. The evidence we have is of attempts to hack voter databases and influence opinions. We have however found all sorts of mistakes on paper, some intentional, some perhaps not.

Agree with OO on the bank accounts even with some limited networking (say a precinct intranet that produces a single report for all of the machines at that center). It's similar technology/protection... with the added benefit that it's only used for a few days a year and could be on a single, dedicated network.
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2020 05:14 PM by Hambone10.)
01-20-2020 01:23 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
Given how much computers and electronics dominate the world today, it seems a bit Luddite to worry that our voting machines will be hacked. Our enemies could wreak havoc by taking over the bankings system or Prime or all the traffic lights in every city or wiping out everybody's credit.

Why they would prefer to elect Jake as mayor of Oklahoma City over Fred seems like a waste.

Of course, they may well prefer a socialist for Senator instead of a Conservative. One or two might get by. But 33/33?

of course those wascally wascals could be sly. Maybe change a few votes in Wisconsin and Michigan, in order to elect their stealth candidate who will be publicly against them but somehow work behind the scenes to support them.

Can anybody say "conspiracy theory"?

In any case, just like in weapons technology, every offensive gain is met by a defensive gain.

What is this "air gapping" thing I hear of?

I personally don't care if the votes are counted electronically or on paper ballots or by a show of hands (maybe the most secure). I think we can have secure elections if we want. I think the "meddling" hysteria is mostly fear of the dark.

People were stealing elections long before Edison was born. Read the history of Papal elections for example.
(This post was last modified: 01-20-2020 01:55 PM by OptimisticOwl.)
01-20-2020 01:54 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-20-2020 01:54 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  Given how much computers and electronics dominate the world today, it seems a bit Luddite to worry that our voting machines will be hacked. Our enemies could wreak havoc by taking over the bankings system or Prime or all the traffic lights in every city or wiping out everybody's credit.

Why they would prefer to elect Jake as mayor of Oklahoma City over Fred seems like a waste.

Of course, they may well prefer a socialist for Senator instead of a Conservative. One or two might get by. But 33/33?

of course those wascally wascals could be sly. Maybe change a few votes in Wisconsin and Michigan, in order to elect their stealth candidate who will be publicly against them but somehow work behind the scenes to support them.

Can anybody say "conspiracy theory"?

In any case, just like in weapons technology, every offensive gain is met by a defensive gain.

What is this "air gapping" thing I hear of?

I personally don't care if the votes are counted electronically or on paper ballots or by a show of hands (maybe the most secure). I think we can have secure elections if we want. I think the "meddling" hysteria is mostly fear of the dark.

People were stealing elections long before Edison was born. Read the history of Papal elections for example.

I'm waiting for the EMP. Still don't understand why no one seems to have really tried it yet, though I am glad they haven't. All those people converting their files to the "cloud" will likely be screwed. Banks, gubment, etc...Still got my vinyl collection, so I plan to be listening to tunes while the streamers and downloaders wonder what to do when their i[phones don;t work anymore. To the discussion, paper is perhaps not as evil as some so-called "environmentalists" would have you think. Plus, it'd make me feel better to have a receipt (not on thermal paper either, as that disappears shortly after it is printed (and is somewhat toxic).
01-21-2020 12:16 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-19-2020 01:39 PM)mrbig Wrote:  I vote on a black box machine where there is no paper trail. I have no idea how they would run a "recount" as the machine would spit out the same results it spit out the first time. If there is no hacking, no software development failures, etc., then everything should work fine. But I would feel much better if I received a paper printout after my vote that I could use to verify and that could be used in a recount/audit scenario.

Fair, but then we'd have to collect all of them to do a recount... and a system smart enough to hack your vote would be smart enough to give you a 'false' receipt.

Voting machines are not remotely complex algorithms... It seems to me that a very simple integrity check (both on your vote and on 1,000 iterations of theoretical votes) could be run in a matter of seconds between every vote and if the system registers an error, you would know before you hit the door. Heck, you could know before you left the booth.

Again, there would be no reason for them to be connected to anything... certainly not anything not in the same room. Print out a paper copy of the results from every machine. Send the collective results electronically (which COULD potentially be hacked) and double check it with a audit of the precinct paper print-outs.

Votes wouldn't even have to be electronic... just the reported results. The machines themselves could be mechanical.
01-21-2020 12:47 PM
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Fountains of Wayne Graham Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-19-2020 01:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, no single option is perfect. I learn more towards the hard-copy backup approaches because of the increasing sophistication of cyber attacks.

Do we not also have an increasing sophistication of cyber defenses?

Sure, but the security arms race will never end, and the weakest link will always be the human factor.

No one is immune:
Amazon boss Jeff Bezos's phone 'hacked by Saudi crown prince'
01-21-2020 04:50 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-21-2020 04:50 PM)Fountains of Wayne Graham Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, no single option is perfect. I learn more towards the hard-copy backup approaches because of the increasing sophistication of cyber attacks.

Do we not also have an increasing sophistication of cyber defenses?

Sure, but the security arms race will never end, and the weakest link will always be the human factor.

No one is immune:
Amazon boss Jeff Bezos's phone 'hacked by Saudi crown prince'

Like any arms race, first a new offense will be found to overcome current defenses, then a new defense will be found to counter it, and then...same ol', same ol'.

So far, all that has been proved is that my money is better off buried in my back yard in a coffee can than in a bank that can be hacked.
01-21-2020 06:23 PM
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Fountains of Wayne Graham Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-21-2020 06:23 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 04:50 PM)Fountains of Wayne Graham Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, no single option is perfect. I learn more towards the hard-copy backup approaches because of the increasing sophistication of cyber attacks.

Do we not also have an increasing sophistication of cyber defenses?

Sure, but the security arms race will never end, and the weakest link will always be the human factor.

No one is immune:
Amazon boss Jeff Bezos's phone 'hacked by Saudi crown prince'

Like any arms race, first a new offense will be found to overcome current defenses, then a new defense will be found to counter it, and then...same ol', same ol'.

So far, all that has been proved is that my money is better off buried in my back yard in a coffee can than in a bank that can be hacked.

[Image: giphy.webp]
01-22-2020 09:28 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-22-2020 09:28 AM)Fountains of Wayne Graham Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 06:23 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-21-2020 04:50 PM)Fountains of Wayne Graham Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:12 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(01-19-2020 01:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, no single option is perfect. I learn more towards the hard-copy backup approaches because of the increasing sophistication of cyber attacks.

Do we not also have an increasing sophistication of cyber defenses?

Sure, but the security arms race will never end, and the weakest link will always be the human factor.

No one is immune:
Amazon boss Jeff Bezos's phone 'hacked by Saudi crown prince'

Like any arms race, first a new offense will be found to overcome current defenses, then a new defense will be found to counter it, and then...same ol', same ol'.

So far, all that has been proved is that my money is better off buried in my back yard in a coffee can than in a bank that can be hacked.

[Image: giphy.webp]

Banks, like voting machines, can be hacked. Coffee cans are safe, like paper ballots.

Just don't let those pesky Russians see you digging.
01-22-2020 09:40 AM
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tanqtonic Online
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Post: #56
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
There is actually a belt and suspenders method that captures the best of both methods, and kills the drawbacks.

Use the electronic machine, and, like current machines, show the choices on the screen to the user and say "Are these your choices"?

If yes, print out a receipt that has both a typed version of the choices, and a scannable code that denotes the choices.

When the receipt is acceptable, the voter hits 'Enter', then deposits the hard copy into a voting bin.

The e-vote tally can be insto-presto determined at the speeds of today's e-machines. If there is any question, a hard copy hard copy is preserved as 'backup and proof' that can be used to cross check the e-result.

I think some jurisdictions actually employ this dual methodology --- but the hard copy is pretty much hard insurance against e-tampering.

Doesnt help in the cases where some in some dorkball jurisdiction that doesnt have voter id where some scumbucket tells the worker they are joe blow and then votes for joe blow.
01-22-2020 10:22 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-22-2020 10:22 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  There is actually a belt and suspenders method that captures the best of both methods, and kills the drawbacks.

Use the electronic machine, and, like current machines, show the choices on the screen to the user and say "Are these your choices"?

If yes, print out a receipt that has both a typed version of the choices, and a scannable code that denotes the choices.

When the receipt is acceptable, the voter hits 'Enter', then deposits the hard copy into a voting bin.

The e-vote tally can be insto-presto determined at the speeds of today's e-machines. If there is any question, a hard copy hard copy is preserved as 'backup and proof' that can be used to cross check the e-result.

I think some jurisdictions actually employ this dual methodology --- but the hard copy is pretty much hard insurance against e-tampering.

Doesnt help in the cases where some in some dorkball jurisdiction that doesnt have voter id where some scumbucket tells the worker they are joe blow and then votes for joe blow.

Not going to reassure the the paranoiacs. Clearly, all the Russian has to do is show a false list, print a false receipt and send whatever he wants to Central Counting.

If that's what they have to do to elect Joe Blow, the guy who has agreed to be a Russian puppet, I guess they will do it.

No evidence that even one vote has been changed by the Russians. There is more evidence of vote tampering in Chicago in the 1960 election.

rigged elections

"Kennedy triumphed by the thinnest of margins. His lead in the popular vote was just 118,574 out of almost 69 million votes cast. (He got 49.7 percent to Nixon’s 49.6 percent.)"

I wonder if we had had ranked voting if the results would have changed.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2020 10:47 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
01-22-2020 10:42 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-22-2020 10:22 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  There is actually a belt and suspenders method that captures the best of both methods, and kills the drawbacks.

Use the electronic machine, and, like current machines, show the choices on the screen to the user and say "Are these your choices"?

If yes, print out a receipt that has both a typed version of the choices, and a scannable code that denotes the choices.

When the receipt is acceptable, the voter hits 'Enter', then deposits the hard copy into a voting bin.

The e-vote tally can be insto-presto determined at the speeds of today's e-machines. If there is any question, a hard copy hard copy is preserved as 'backup and proof' that can be used to cross check the e-result.

I think some jurisdictions actually employ this dual methodology --- but the hard copy is pretty much hard insurance against e-tampering.

Doesnt help in the cases where some in some dorkball jurisdiction that doesnt have voter id where some scumbucket tells the worker they are joe blow and then votes for joe blow.

I believe this method was discussed at some point. I see little to no reason to delay the implementation of a hard copy backup, except for costs.

Your right that this would t protect against voter fraud, but as we all know, there is a lot of disagreement on this board regarding the prevalence of in-person voter fraud.
01-22-2020 10:44 AM
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tanqtonic Online
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Post: #59
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-22-2020 10:44 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-22-2020 10:22 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  There is actually a belt and suspenders method that captures the best of both methods, and kills the drawbacks.

Use the electronic machine, and, like current machines, show the choices on the screen to the user and say "Are these your choices"?

If yes, print out a receipt that has both a typed version of the choices, and a scannable code that denotes the choices.

When the receipt is acceptable, the voter hits 'Enter', then deposits the hard copy into a voting bin.

The e-vote tally can be insto-presto determined at the speeds of today's e-machines. If there is any question, a hard copy hard copy is preserved as 'backup and proof' that can be used to cross check the e-result.

I think some jurisdictions actually employ this dual methodology --- but the hard copy is pretty much hard insurance against e-tampering.

Doesnt help in the cases where some in some dorkball jurisdiction that doesnt have voter id where some scumbucket tells the worker they are joe blow and then votes for joe blow.

I believe this method was discussed at some point. I see little to no reason to delay the implementation of a hard copy backup, except for costs.

Your right that this would t protect against voter fraud, but as we all know, there is a lot of disagreement on this board regarding the prevalence of in-person voter fraud.

Considering that in one election when I was in California someone 'voted for me' (very off-cycle local election) I am all for voter ID.

The funny thing is that lets assume that in-person fraud has the same occurrence ratio as AR-15 shootings (a very, very low ratio mind you), one side goes absolutely ape **** about the *necessity* of IDs on an issue of Constitutional proportions, yet slavishly ignores that stance on another issue of Constitutional proportions.

Me? I have zero problem with needing an ID to buy a gun, and needing an ID to vote.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2020 10:57 AM by tanqtonic.)
01-22-2020 10:51 AM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Ranked-Choice Voting
(01-22-2020 10:51 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(01-22-2020 10:44 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(01-22-2020 10:22 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  There is actually a belt and suspenders method that captures the best of both methods, and kills the drawbacks.

Use the electronic machine, and, like current machines, show the choices on the screen to the user and say "Are these your choices"?

If yes, print out a receipt that has both a typed version of the choices, and a scannable code that denotes the choices.

When the receipt is acceptable, the voter hits 'Enter', then deposits the hard copy into a voting bin.

The e-vote tally can be insto-presto determined at the speeds of today's e-machines. If there is any question, a hard copy hard copy is preserved as 'backup and proof' that can be used to cross check the e-result.

I think some jurisdictions actually employ this dual methodology --- but the hard copy is pretty much hard insurance against e-tampering.

Doesnt help in the cases where some in some dorkball jurisdiction that doesnt have voter id where some scumbucket tells the worker they are joe blow and then votes for joe blow.

I believe this method was discussed at some point. I see little to no reason to delay the implementation of a hard copy backup, except for costs.

Your right that this would t protect against voter fraud, but as we all know, there is a lot of disagreement on this board regarding the prevalence of in-person voter fraud.

Considering that in one election when I was in California someone 'voted for me' (very off-cycle local election) I am all for voter ID.

There is no good reason to be against it. It's like being against people having driver's licenses.
01-22-2020 10:54 AM
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