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(12-15-2019 03:09 PM)HoopsJunky Wrote:  let me get this straight

UC is struggling to score with Jarron shooting 33%
Brannen should take out the leading rebounder and shot blocker who averages 13/game at a 70% clip and play who more- Diarra?

ole ball coach programmed you into ball deflections and holding the opponent to under 50 is the key to winning

That's what you get when people refuse to admit they were wrong about a player. They claimed he was going to be a stiff who would average 4 pts a game, but he blew that prediction out of the water. So now he's called a defensive liability. Even though he leads the team in blocks and is second in rebounding.

Do things suck. Yes.

But I believe most of these problems, missed free throws, bad turnovers, correct guys playing, etc. Are correctable.

(12-15-2019 04:09 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  I watched part of the second half again, and I still don't see bad defense by Vogt. I see that Lithuanian guy making fall away floating jumpers over a 7 footer with a hand in his face. Sometimes you have to say "chapeau" and move on.

Damn, shooters actually score. Sadly we never needed such players. We needed athletes.

(12-15-2019 12:21 PM)skyblade Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 12:02 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 11:53 AM)blackcattitude Wrote:  - the idea that Cumberland is lazy and lacks work ethic is a farce.
- re: Vogt, Huggins used to say about either Robert Whaley or Tony Bobbitt that (paraphrased) "if you score 20 points a game and give up 30, I can't keep you in". Cronin has said something similar as well.

How is it false? His coaches are the one who stated it.

To say Vogt has been the reason we've lost any game this season is just stupid.

In a team game, you can't say any single person is the reason for a loss. But I can and will say that Vogt is a large part of the reason we've lost to BGSU, Xavier and Colgate. His defense is horrible. So bad that Brannen has referred to it in the press conference after the last couple of games, yesterday he said "it's just tough because Chris gives us so much offensively". Colgate's center scored 21 in the second half and that was largely over Vogt. That's not to mention the number of points that he gives up because he can't play help defense and can't protect the rim.

In every loss but to OSU, a common theme has been teams abusing Vogt on the defensive end. Pull him away from the basket and get him into pick and roll situations or get a man to break him down 1v1 off the dribble. Vogt doesn't have the movement ability to play man-to-man at this level. He might do okay in a zone that kept him in the paint. But pull him away from the basket and he becomes a massive liability.

Damn, just imagine if our scholarship athletes could make simple free throws. Damn, that requires shooting ability - nothing we recruit. Wanna know why we lose - cannot make free throws.

(12-15-2019 05:22 PM)Bcatbog Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 12:21 PM)skyblade Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 12:02 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 11:53 AM)blackcattitude Wrote:  - the idea that Cumberland is lazy and lacks work ethic is a farce.
- re: Vogt, Huggins used to say about either Robert Whaley or Tony Bobbitt that (paraphrased) "if you score 20 points a game and give up 30, I can't keep you in". Cronin has said something similar as well.

How is it false? His coaches are the one who stated it.

To say Vogt has been the reason we've lost any game this season is just stupid.

In a team game, you can't say any single person is the reason for a loss. But I can and will say that Vogt is a large part of the reason we've lost to BGSU, Xavier and Colgate. His defense is horrible. So bad that Brannen has referred to it in the press conference after the last couple of games, yesterday he said "it's just tough because Chris gives us so much offensively". Colgate's center scored 21 in the second half and that was largely over Vogt. That's not to mention the number of points that he gives up because he can't play help defense and can't protect the rim.

In every loss but to OSU, a common theme has been teams abusing Vogt on the defensive end. Pull him away from the basket and get him into pick and roll situations or get a man to break him down 1v1 off the dribble. Vogt doesn't have the movement ability to play man-to-man at this level. He might do okay in a zone that kept him in the paint. But pull him away from the basket and he becomes a massive liability.

Damn, just imagine if our scholarship athletes could make simple free throws. Damn, that requires shooting ability - nothing we recruit. Wanna know why we lose - cannot make free throws.

OK, reality check here... None of these guys get to play major college BB without being able to "shoot." Seriously.

What I find lacking is the technique and technical stuff. None of these guys is without talent. I suspect they have each fallen into individual bad habits that stem from players being more interested in the flash and bang of highlight videos. FT's are not "highlight" worthy. Jump shoots are not "highlight" worthy. Passing is not "highlight" worthy.

But when I bring up the basics, I am told that isn't worthy of "wasting" practice time on. But I think that's what's missing here. The basics. The basics of FT shooting, the basics of the "bunny," the basics of passing, the basics of layups etc... These are the things that game after game that we complain about: who missed the lay-up, who missed the "bunny," how many points we left on the floor at the FT line.

But whatever. It'd be nice to see Brannen tear the thing down to the floor and start rebuilding from there but I don't see it happening. So, I suspect we're going to keep repeating this cycle, but degrading each time around.

(12-15-2019 04:11 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 03:09 PM)HoopsJunky Wrote:  let me get this straight

UC is struggling to score with Jarron shooting 33%
Brannen should take out the leading rebounder and shot blocker who averages 13/game at a 70% clip and play who more- Diarra?

ole ball coach programmed you into ball deflections and holding the opponent to under 50 is the key to winning

That's what you get when people refuse to admit they were wrong about a player. They claimed he was going to be a stiff who would average 4 pts a game, but he blew that prediction out of the water. So now he's called a defensive liability. Even though he leads the team in blocks and is second in rebounding.

Do you watch the post game press conferences? After the last two losses Brannen has talked about Vogt's poor defense. But maybe he doesn't know anything either.

(12-15-2019 07:02 PM)skyblade Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 04:11 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 03:09 PM)HoopsJunky Wrote:  let me get this straight

UC is struggling to score with Jarron shooting 33%
Brannen should take out the leading rebounder and shot blocker who averages 13/game at a 70% clip and play who more- Diarra?

ole ball coach programmed you into ball deflections and holding the opponent to under 50 is the key to winning

That's what you get when people refuse to admit they were wrong about a player. They claimed he was going to be a stiff who would average 4 pts a game, but he blew that prediction out of the water. So now he's called a defensive liability. Even though he leads the team in blocks and is second in rebounding.

Do you watch the post game press conferences? After the last two losses Brannen has talked about Vogt's poor defense. But maybe he doesn't know anything either.

Yet you don't see him benching him, because HE knows what he gives you on offense outweighs what he gives you on defense.

(12-14-2019 09:18 PM)jarr Wrote:  All the holier than though folks bashed me for saying Pitino, Brannen was always the safe vanilla hire. He needs to light a fire under his a$$, doesn't need to be Huggins or Mick, but the Zebras are walking all over him.

I told you before, Jarr that if we had Pittino, UC would be on probation for years.
Pittino is where he needs to be. In a foreign country coaching. IF he messes that one up, he goes to prison or a work labor camp for years.

(12-15-2019 09:03 PM)bearcat54 Wrote:  

(12-14-2019 09:18 PM)jarr Wrote:  All the holier than though folks bashed me for saying Pitino, Brannen was always the safe vanilla hire. He needs to light a fire under his a$$, doesn't need to be Huggins or Mick, but the Zebras are walking all over him.

I told you before, Jarr that if we had Pittino, UC would be on probation for years.
Pittino is where he needs to be. In a foreign country coaching. IF he messes that one up, he goes to prison or a work labor camp for years.

right, just like UL has been negatively impacted or on probation for years since he was fired...

(12-15-2019 01:06 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  If you have heavy feet and are not athletic, not much you can do outside of switching or zone. You switch with him and any staff worth their salt will see that right away and exploit the heck out of that on mismatches in the paint.

and how did you feel about Brooks inability to hit 4 footers? he shot endless air balls from 4 feet out.

(12-15-2019 05:22 PM)Bcatbog Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 12:21 PM)skyblade Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 12:02 PM)Sweetness Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 11:53 AM)blackcattitude Wrote:  - the idea that Cumberland is lazy and lacks work ethic is a farce.
- re: Vogt, Huggins used to say about either Robert Whaley or Tony Bobbitt that (paraphrased) "if you score 20 points a game and give up 30, I can't keep you in". Cronin has said something similar as well.

How is it false? His coaches are the one who stated it.

To say Vogt has been the reason we've lost any game this season is just stupid.

In a team game, you can't say any single person is the reason for a loss. But I can and will say that Vogt is a large part of the reason we've lost to BGSU, Xavier and Colgate. His defense is horrible. So bad that Brannen has referred to it in the press conference after the last couple of games, yesterday he said "it's just tough because Chris gives us so much offensively". Colgate's center scored 21 in the second half and that was largely over Vogt. That's not to mention the number of points that he gives up because he can't play help defense and can't protect the rim.

In every loss but to OSU, a common theme has been teams abusing Vogt on the defensive end. Pull him away from the basket and get him into pick and roll situations or get a man to break him down 1v1 off the dribble. Vogt doesn't have the movement ability to play man-to-man at this level. He might do okay in a zone that kept him in the paint. But pull him away from the basket and he becomes a massive liability.

Damn, just imagine if our scholarship athletes could make simple free throws. Damn, that requires shooting ability - nothing we recruit. Wanna know why we lose - cannot make free throws.

Imagine thinking free throws is the reason freaking Colgate was within 20 points of us at home.

(12-15-2019 07:02 PM)skyblade Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 04:11 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 03:09 PM)HoopsJunky Wrote:  let me get this straight

UC is struggling to score with Jarron shooting 33%
Brannen should take out the leading rebounder and shot blocker who averages 13/game at a 70% clip and play who more- Diarra?

ole ball coach programmed you into ball deflections and holding the opponent to under 50 is the key to winning

That's what you get when people refuse to admit they were wrong about a player. They claimed he was going to be a stiff who would average 4 pts a game, but he blew that prediction out of the water. So now he's called a defensive liability. Even though he leads the team in blocks and is second in rebounding.

Do you watch the post game press conferences? After the last two losses Brannen has talked about Vogt's poor defense. But maybe he doesn't know anything either.

Context Hep, did he say anything about Scott's inability to hit free throws as a 5th year player, or his disappearing act for many games this season? Also, why is your boy boy Diarra locked to the bench? You are a spin machine to fit your tired narrative.

(12-15-2019 09:36 PM)levydl Wrote:  Imagine thinking free throws is the reason freaking Colgate was within 20 points of us at home.

Well also Colgate was a tournament team last year, that lost to 2 seed Tennessee by 7 and returned their 3 best players and several other contributors. They could very well be a tournament team again. It's a bad loss but too many underestimate the quality of teams UC has scheduled this year.

(12-15-2019 09:43 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 09:36 PM)levydl Wrote:  Imagine thinking free throws is the reason freaking Colgate was within 20 points of us at home.

Well also Colgate was a tournament team last year, that lost to 2 seed Tennessee by 7 and returned their 3 best players and several other contributors. They could very well be a tournament team again. It's a bad loss but too many underestimate the quality of teams UC has scheduled this year.

They just lost to Niagra. They lost to by 25 to Cuse and Auburn. We were a double digit favorite. As you said, it's a bad loss. But even if UC had won in OT, it would not change that we played poorly once again.

(12-15-2019 12:37 PM)dsquare Wrote:  

(12-15-2019 12:31 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I warned people the guy could score from 5 feet and in but he struggles on D and it was met with derision. I swear some fans just look at the box score and give a thumbs up or down on one data point. It’s not worth getting worked up over. This staff has made it clear they are going to lean on him this year and next so we should just get used to the bad with the good. I just shake my head when I watch him fail to rotate and allow easy buckets every game.

That kid last night is very good. He averaged about 18 last year, but the truth is you have to guard him with a 4. He's way to mobile and athletic with a good touch to be guarded by a 5. That fall away he shoots in the lane is almost impossible to block with out help at his size. If he could shoot that well every night he'd have a future in the Nba. However, he hasn't proven he can shoot it night in and night out at 6'10.

The guy he was guarding didn’t bother me too much. He hit shots and at 7’1” Vogt is not quick and has about a 3 inch vertical. The kid found enough space by being quicker than his defender to get his shots off while neutralizing Vogt’s length.

The things that make me pull my hair out are the bad decisions that he makes off of the ball in now his third year with this HC and 2 of the 3 assistants. Those turn into easy baskets too often. Easy looks when picking up the wrong guy or not rotating are what helped keep Colgate in the game. We have seen this a lot already in 10 games.

It is what it is. There is no mid season free agent draft and the staff decided this was the direction they wanted to go when they brought him with them. Like I said, take the good with the bad and hope they find ways to mitigate some of it.

(12-15-2019 04:09 PM)Bruce Monnin Wrote:  I watched part of the second half again, and I still don't see bad defense by Vogt. I see that Lithuanian guy making fall away floating jumpers over a 7 footer with a hand in his face. Sometimes you have to say "chapeau" and move on.

That kid's very talented offensively for a big guy. That was about as good an offensive performance as i've seen against us in recent memory. He made some awful tough shots. If he can hit those night in and night out he's going to make money somewhere. They're a tough team to double as most of them can hit open shots. Brooks would have been on the bench in foul trouble against him. He would have over guarded him and fouled him. Been there done that.

This season feels like we are reliving the odd endings and failures of the post season of Huggins and Cronin in the regular season. Bearcat basketball has always been one big what the heck just happened.

How many half court shots, blown leads, horrible calls, injuries and late game meltdowns does this fan base need to go through before we get rewarded with a deep tournament run. Maybe the problem isn't the coach, its the program. UC basketball is determined to make its fans crazy. South Carolina 1998, Miles Simon, and even Tulane at home in 2015. Can we just make this end? We have seen a 22 point lead and 14 lead in the NCAA tournament vanish in back to back years. Kenyon Martin gets hurt at the worst possible time. Xavier beats number 1 ranked UC teams twice! What did we do to deserve all this? Gerry McNamara, WVU in 1998, or St. Joe's in 2016 what hurt worse. Canisius, Colgate, or Presbyterian how did any of those happen? From now on it all ends, or at least until the next game.

(12-16-2019 08:20 AM)bearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  This season feels like we are reliving the odd endings and failures of the post season of Huggins and Cronin in the regular season. Bearcat basketball has always been one big what the heck just happened.

How many half court shots, blown leads, horrible calls, injuries and late game meltdowns does this fan base need to go through before we get rewarded with a deep tournament run. Maybe the problem isn't the coach, its the program. UC basketball is determined to make its fans crazy. South Carolina 1998, Miles Simon, and even Tulane at home in 2015. Can we just make this end? We have seen a 22 point lead and 14 lead in the NCAA tournament vanish in back to back years. Kenyon Martin gets hurt at the worst possible time. Xavier beats number 1 ranked UC teams twice! What did we do to deserve all this? Gerry McNamara, WVU in 1998, or St. Joe's in 2016 what hurt worse. Canisius, Colgate, or Presbyterian how did any of those happen? From now on it all ends, or at least until the next game.

Add to the disturbing list the half court shot by Arizona at the buzzer to overcome what would have been a great Bearcat win back in the Huggins era. Maybe whatever the Bengals have had the past quarter century is contagious?

One of the oddities of sports in my mind. Some teams or programs just seem to have the ball bounce their way more often than not. Kentucky basketball and Notre Dame football come to mind. I guess if we asked a UK fan right after their game with Evansville, they would disagree with my premise.

(12-16-2019 08:30 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 08:20 AM)bearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  This season feels like we are reliving the odd endings and failures of the post season of Huggins and Cronin in the regular season. Bearcat basketball has always been one big what the heck just happened.

How many half court shots, blown leads, horrible calls, injuries and late game meltdowns does this fan base need to go through before we get rewarded with a deep tournament run. Maybe the problem isn't the coach, its the program. UC basketball is determined to make its fans crazy. South Carolina 1998, Miles Simon, and even Tulane at home in 2015. Can we just make this end? We have seen a 22 point lead and 14 lead in the NCAA tournament vanish in back to back years. Kenyon Martin gets hurt at the worst possible time. Xavier beats number 1 ranked UC teams twice! What did we do to deserve all this? Gerry McNamara, WVU in 1998, or St. Joe's in 2016 what hurt worse. Canisius, Colgate, or Presbyterian how did any of those happen? From now on it all ends, or at least until the next game.

Add to the disturbing list the half court shot by Arizona at the buzzer to overcome what would have been a great Bearcat win back in the Huggins era. Maybe whatever the Bengals have had the past quarter century is contagious?

One of the oddities of sports in my mind. Some teams or programs just seem to have the ball bounce their way more often than not. Kentucky basketball and Notre Dame football come to mind. I guess if we asked a UK fan right after their game with Evansville, they would disagree with my premise.

Don't forget the phantom 5 second call on us in the '74 or '75 tournament that cost us the game against stupid Notre Dame.

I think that was where it all started.

Stupid Notre Dame.

(12-16-2019 08:48 AM)Def Berkkat Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 08:30 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 08:20 AM)bearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  This season feels like we are reliving the odd endings and failures of the post season of Huggins and Cronin in the regular season. Bearcat basketball has always been one big what the heck just happened.

How many half court shots, blown leads, horrible calls, injuries and late game meltdowns does this fan base need to go through before we get rewarded with a deep tournament run. Maybe the problem isn't the coach, its the program. UC basketball is determined to make its fans crazy. South Carolina 1998, Miles Simon, and even Tulane at home in 2015. Can we just make this end? We have seen a 22 point lead and 14 lead in the NCAA tournament vanish in back to back years. Kenyon Martin gets hurt at the worst possible time. Xavier beats number 1 ranked UC teams twice! What did we do to deserve all this? Gerry McNamara, WVU in 1998, or St. Joe's in 2016 what hurt worse. Canisius, Colgate, or Presbyterian how did any of those happen? From now on it all ends, or at least until the next game.

Add to the disturbing list the half court shot by Arizona at the buzzer to overcome what would have been a great Bearcat win back in the Huggins era. Maybe whatever the Bengals have had the past quarter century is contagious?

One of the oddities of sports in my mind. Some teams or programs just seem to have the ball bounce their way more often than not. Kentucky basketball and Notre Dame football come to mind. I guess if we asked a UK fan right after their game with Evansville, they would disagree with my premise.

Don't forget the phantom 5 second call on us in the '74 or '75 tournament that cost us the game against stupid Notre Dame.

I think that was where it all started.

Stupid Notre Dame.

Bolded. I think I had finally erased that one from my memory but it was so bad it would have been laughable had UC not been on the wrong end of the call.