Which job is best?

That's easy Mizzou. They're not in the same division as Alabama Auburn and LSU.

If you want a good guess as to how good a team will be, look at how many returning offensive linemen they have.

OL's importance is much underrated.

(12-10-2019 03:04 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-08-2019 09:32 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  Ole Miss hires an established FBS coach, Mizzou hires one of the hottest up and coming FBS head coaches.

Arkansas hires an OL coach

See ya again in a year and a half Arkansas!

Pittman is a very good coach, and is a huge loss for us Dawgs.

Ellis Johnson was a great defensive coordinator for South Carolina under Spurrier. How did that turn out for him as a head coach?

Will Muschamp was regarded as one of the best DCs in the business, but has been a mediocre at best head coach who is probably one season away from being fired from his second HC job.

From a historical and facilities point of view? Arkansas.

They were becoming relevant again under Petrino until the motorcycle crash scandal. Obviously money is not an issue for them but like Nebraska, they’re not getting the right hires.

Missouri didn’t do much in the Big Eight and Big XII. Their magical season was in 2007 when them and Kansas were ranked #1 and #2 respectively but lost to Oklahoma in the Big XII CCG. To make things worse, the Orange Bowl chose arch rival Kansas because they thought they were going to bring more fans to Miami than Mizzou. Sure, they’re in the East but they still have to play Georgia and Florida, Tennessee is going in the right direction and Kentucky and South Carolina are not easy games. There’s always Vanderbilt though.

Mississippi? They should thank their lucky stars (Mississippi State too) they got in the SEC decades ago otherwise they’d be lucky to be in the AAC.

If you ever get bored, check out the top 5, top 10, top 20 rankings of Arkansas and Ole Miss 1971 to present vs start of time to 1970

(12-13-2019 04:13 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If you ever get bored, check out the top 5, top 10, top 20 rankings of Arkansas and Ole Miss 1971 to present vs start of time to 1970

They're about even, with both teams below .500, since Arkansas joined the SEC in 1992.

Missouri isn't a better long-term prospect. In the last 50 seasons they've had 5 with more than 8 wins, all of those when Pinkel coached there.

All three are still difficult jobs. If I was going to try to guess which of these teams is likely to be at least .500 overall in SEC conference games during their new head coach's tenure, my guess would be none.

(12-13-2019 06:24 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-13-2019 04:13 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If you ever get bored, check out the top 5, top 10, top 20 rankings of Arkansas and Ole Miss 1971 to present vs start of time to 1970

They're about even, with both teams below .500, since Arkansas joined the SEC in 1992.

Missouri isn't a better long-term prospect. In the last 50 seasons they've had 5 with more than 8 wins, all of those when Pinkel coached there.

All three are still difficult jobs. If I was going to try to guess which of these teams is likely to be at least .500 overall in SEC conference games during their new head coach's tenure, my guess would be none.

Sorry wasn't clear.

Not interested in Ark vs. OM in each period rather Arkansas pre-1971 vs post and OM pre-1971 vs post.

Both programs have not done well with the integration of southern football.

My theory.

Arkansas unlike most of the teams in the south that have become nationally powerful didn't benefit from the end of segregated football in the south because Arkansas has a smaller black population. They didn't enjoy the benefit of top talent coming to play for them instead of the local HBCUs and didn't have a notable outflow of talent to integrated teams in the north. The Arkansas football program didn't gain much talent from integration.

Ole Miss had a completely different set of issues despite being in a talent rich state that had three HBCU's that had periods of notable success. They went into integrated football with the name Rebels, a mascot named Colonel Rebel, the stands packed with Confederate flags flying and the band playing Dixie. The first black player at Ole Miss was 8 when the Ole Miss race riot took place over the admission of James Meredith resulting in two deaths and three hundred injured including 166 US Marshals and 40 soldiers and guardsmen. The process of toning down the traditions was fitful but has mostly been successful as the generation that resented the efforts to de-Rebel the Rebels is getting out-numbered.

(12-15-2019 01:05 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(12-13-2019 06:24 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(12-13-2019 04:13 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  If you ever get bored, check out the top 5, top 10, top 20 rankings of Arkansas and Ole Miss 1971 to present vs start of time to 1970

They're about even, with both teams below .500, since Arkansas joined the SEC in 1992.

Missouri isn't a better long-term prospect. In the last 50 seasons they've had 5 with more than 8 wins, all of those when Pinkel coached there.

All three are still difficult jobs. If I was going to try to guess which of these teams is likely to be at least .500 overall in SEC conference games during their new head coach's tenure, my guess would be none.

Sorry wasn't clear.

Not interested in Ark vs. OM in each period rather Arkansas pre-1971 vs post and OM pre-1971 vs post.

Both programs have not done well with the integration of southern football.

My theory.

Arkansas unlike most of the teams in the south that have become nationally powerful didn't benefit from the end of segregated football in the south because Arkansas has a smaller black population. They didn't enjoy the benefit of top talent coming to play for them instead of the local HBCUs and didn't have a notable outflow of talent to integrated teams in the north. The Arkansas football program didn't gain much talent from integration.

Ole Miss had a completely different set of issues despite being in a talent rich state that had three HBCU's that had periods of notable success. They went into integrated football with the name Rebels, a mascot named Colonel Rebel, the stands packed with Confederate flags flying and the band playing Dixie. The first black player at Ole Miss was 8 when the Ole Miss race riot took place over the admission of James Meredith resulting in two deaths and three hundred injured including 166 US Marshals and 40 soldiers and guardsmen. The process of toning down the traditions was fitful but has mostly been successful as the generation that resented the efforts to de-Rebel the Rebels is getting out-numbered.

I can see that speculation having merit. It's also not talked about with the slow decline of football in the Northern Midwest. But programs like Michigan, Nebraska and others once got Jim Crow athletes from the South. Now that those kids stay at home the talent stream has dried up a bit leading to the slow ascendency of the schools in the SEC and a few in the ACC while former Big 8 and some Big 10 powers have seen slow decline.

The simple unspoken reality is that many of he kids now stay at home and rosters in the Northern Midwest don't have so many African American kids from the South as they once did. For that matter black flight to the Northern Midwest in the 40's, 50's and 60's is over too with most of the industry that drew them having been relocated or made obsolete by foreign cheap labor and technology.

Most pundits get the Rust Belt part but seldom make the connection to the elimination of Jim Crow.

Arkansas did quite well in the 70s and 80s. They weren't #3 in the country as they were in the 60s, but they did very well (60s winning % #1 Alabama, #2 Texas, #3 Arkansas). But then they joined the SEC. They were no longer competing for Texas blue chips. They had to take the scraps.

Mizzou took half of the 80s and 90s off which really hurt them and their national perspective. They were traditionally the 3rd best program in the Big 8 behind the major two powers in Oklahoma and Nebraska. They could always knock one of them off in the 70s but then turn around and lose to a Kansas.

If you can lock down St. Louis and Kansas City recruiting and fill in with Texas (I think play the SEC angle in Chicago), Mizzou could be a top 20 program every year and every 5 years or so compete for a national championship.

First 20 years of SEC Arkansas won 11 once, 10 twice, 9 three times and 8 four times
Last 20 years of SWC Arkansas won 11 once, 10 five times though last two came when everyone but Arkansas and Rice was on probation or just coming off. 9 four times, and 8 once.

Arkansas’ 28 years in the SEC:
3 T15 finishes
14 winning seasons
12 losing seasons

Arkansas’ previous 28 years in the SWC:
14 T15 finishes
24 winning seasons
2 losing seasons


So Arkansas T15 finish rate in the SWC was equal to their >.500 rate in the SEC over the last 56 years.

Yeah this isn’t even debatable, lmao.

(12-15-2019 03:32 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Arkansas’ 28 years in the SEC:
3 T15 finishes
14 winning seasons
12 losing seasons

Arkansas’ previous 28 years in the SWC:
14 T15 finishes
24 winning seasons
2 losing seasons


So Arkansas T15 finish rate in the SWC was equal to their >.500 rate in the SEC over the last 56 years.

Yeah this isn’t even debatable, lmao.

Really. In AP poll points for the decade:
1960s T-2nd
1970s 10th
1980s 20th
1990s 42nd
2000s 37th

Many people now have no idea how big a catch Arkansas was for the SEC when they joined. That's how far they have fallen.

IWokeUpLikeThis and Bullet, your longer time span data goes to my initial point, Arkansas began fading in the SWC with integration. The counter argument would be Arkansas faded because everyone in the SWC but Arkansas and Rice was cheating so blatantly that the NCAA needed a substation in Texas. The Hogs final burst of SWC glory came with 10 win teams that won the SWC when everyone was on probation or just coming off except Arkansas and Rice.

Those two teams each went 10-2. The 1988 team losing to Miami and UCLA (Cotton Bowl) and their non-conference wins were 8 points over 5-6 Ole Miss in Little Rock 4 points over a 4-7 Tulsa in Fayetteville and a rout of 2 win Pacific. The 1989 team lost to 5-6 Texas in Fayetteville and to Tennessee in the Cotton. Non-conference took a 9 point win over 6-6 Tulsa in Fayetteville, 7 points over an 8 win Ole Miss in Jackson and womped 2 win UTEP in Little Rock.

(12-16-2019 10:57 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  IWokeUpLikeThis and Bullet, your longer time span data goes to my initial point, Arkansas began fading in the SWC with integration. The counter argument would be Arkansas faded because everyone in the SWC but Arkansas and Rice was cheating so blatantly that the NCAA needed a substation in Texas. The Hogs final burst of SWC glory came with 10 win teams that won the SWC when everyone was on probation or just coming off except Arkansas and Rice.

Those two teams each went 10-2. The 1988 team losing to Miami and UCLA (Cotton Bowl) and their non-conference wins were 8 points over 5-6 Ole Miss in Little Rock 4 points over a 4-7 Tulsa in Fayetteville and a rout of 2 win Pacific. The 1989 team lost to 5-6 Texas in Fayetteville and to Tennessee in the Cotton. Non-conference took a 9 point win over 6-6 Tulsa in Fayetteville, 7 points over an 8 win Ole Miss in Jackson and womped 2 win UTEP in Little Rock.

Arkansas was ranked 5 times in the 80s alone (82-9, 85-12, 86-15, 88-12, 89-13). They have been ranked 5 times in the nearly 30 years since (98-16, 99-17, 2006-15, 2011-12, 2012-5).

80s was long past integration. And I'm not sure how you think Arkansas and especially Ole Miss should be somehow more impacted. Neither was an early adopter of integration and neither had some advantage in their white population numbers over Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida.

Sounds like you just want your more powerful neighbor to look like they always have been unimportant. If you want to look only at post 60s, they were:
1970 #11
1971 #16
1975 #7 Broyles retired after 76
1977 #3 Lou Holtz era
1978 #11
1979 #8

(12-16-2019 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 10:57 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  IWokeUpLikeThis and Bullet, your longer time span data goes to my initial point, Arkansas began fading in the SWC with integration. The counter argument would be Arkansas faded because everyone in the SWC but Arkansas and Rice was cheating so blatantly that the NCAA needed a substation in Texas. The Hogs final burst of SWC glory came with 10 win teams that won the SWC when everyone was on probation or just coming off except Arkansas and Rice.

Those two teams each went 10-2. The 1988 team losing to Miami and UCLA (Cotton Bowl) and their non-conference wins were 8 points over 5-6 Ole Miss in Little Rock 4 points over a 4-7 Tulsa in Fayetteville and a rout of 2 win Pacific. The 1989 team lost to 5-6 Texas in Fayetteville and to Tennessee in the Cotton. Non-conference took a 9 point win over 6-6 Tulsa in Fayetteville, 7 points over an 8 win Ole Miss in Jackson and womped 2 win UTEP in Little Rock.

Arkansas was ranked 5 times in the 80s alone (82-9, 85-12, 86-15, 88-12, 89-13). They have been ranked 5 times in the nearly 30 years since (98-16, 99-17, 2006-15, 2011-12, 2012-5).

80s was long past integration. And I'm not sure how you think Arkansas and especially Ole Miss should be somehow more impacted. Neither was an early adopter of integration and neither had some advantage in their white population numbers over Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida.

Sounds like you just want your more powerful neighbor to look like they always have been unimportant. If you want to look only at post 60s, they were:
1970 #11
1971 #16
1975 #7 Broyles retired after 76
1977 #3 Lou Holtz era
1978 #11
1979 #8

You are 1000% missing the point.

Arkansas was inarguably a national power until southern football integrated, as was Ole Miss.

They went from throwing top 10's to being in the top 20.

In the 18 years pre-integration Arkansas was TOP 10 in AP and coaches 9 times.
In the 49 years since? Top 10 in AP or coaches only six times.

Ole Miss in 20 seasons pre-integration was top 10 a total of 10 seasons.
In the 49 seasons post-integration top 10 only once.

(12-19-2019 12:42 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 10:57 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  IWokeUpLikeThis and Bullet, your longer time span data goes to my initial point, Arkansas began fading in the SWC with integration. The counter argument would be Arkansas faded because everyone in the SWC but Arkansas and Rice was cheating so blatantly that the NCAA needed a substation in Texas. The Hogs final burst of SWC glory came with 10 win teams that won the SWC when everyone was on probation or just coming off except Arkansas and Rice.

Those two teams each went 10-2. The 1988 team losing to Miami and UCLA (Cotton Bowl) and their non-conference wins were 8 points over 5-6 Ole Miss in Little Rock 4 points over a 4-7 Tulsa in Fayetteville and a rout of 2 win Pacific. The 1989 team lost to 5-6 Texas in Fayetteville and to Tennessee in the Cotton. Non-conference took a 9 point win over 6-6 Tulsa in Fayetteville, 7 points over an 8 win Ole Miss in Jackson and womped 2 win UTEP in Little Rock.

Arkansas was ranked 5 times in the 80s alone (82-9, 85-12, 86-15, 88-12, 89-13). They have been ranked 5 times in the nearly 30 years since (98-16, 99-17, 2006-15, 2011-12, 2012-5).

80s was long past integration. And I'm not sure how you think Arkansas and especially Ole Miss should be somehow more impacted. Neither was an early adopter of integration and neither had some advantage in their white population numbers over Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida.

Sounds like you just want your more powerful neighbor to look like they always have been unimportant. If you want to look only at post 60s, they were:
1970 #11
1971 #16
1975 #7 Broyles retired after 76
1977 #3 Lou Holtz era
1978 #11
1979 #8

You are 1000% missing the point.

Arkansas was inarguably a national power until southern football integrated, as was Ole Miss.

They went from throwing top 10's to being in the top 20.

In the 18 years pre-integration Arkansas was TOP 10 in AP and coaches 9 times.
In the 49 years since? Top 10 in AP or coaches only six times.

Ole Miss in 20 seasons pre-integration was top 10 a total of 10 seasons.
In the 49 seasons post-integration top 10 only once.

Frank Broyles was a great coach and retired in 1976. They still were a top 20 program with Holtz and Hatfield. It wasn't until they entered the SEC that they cratered, over 25 years after SMU and UK broke the color barriers.

They got their share of Texas bluechips in the SWC, competing with Texas, Texas A&M and Oklahoma. Now they get very few top Texas players until the national powers and the Texas and Oklahoma Big 12 schools are done.

(12-19-2019 10:53 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-19-2019 12:42 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 10:57 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  IWokeUpLikeThis and Bullet, your longer time span data goes to my initial point, Arkansas began fading in the SWC with integration. The counter argument would be Arkansas faded because everyone in the SWC but Arkansas and Rice was cheating so blatantly that the NCAA needed a substation in Texas. The Hogs final burst of SWC glory came with 10 win teams that won the SWC when everyone was on probation or just coming off except Arkansas and Rice.

Those two teams each went 10-2. The 1988 team losing to Miami and UCLA (Cotton Bowl) and their non-conference wins were 8 points over 5-6 Ole Miss in Little Rock 4 points over a 4-7 Tulsa in Fayetteville and a rout of 2 win Pacific. The 1989 team lost to 5-6 Texas in Fayetteville and to Tennessee in the Cotton. Non-conference took a 9 point win over 6-6 Tulsa in Fayetteville, 7 points over an 8 win Ole Miss in Jackson and womped 2 win UTEP in Little Rock.

Arkansas was ranked 5 times in the 80s alone (82-9, 85-12, 86-15, 88-12, 89-13). They have been ranked 5 times in the nearly 30 years since (98-16, 99-17, 2006-15, 2011-12, 2012-5).

80s was long past integration. And I'm not sure how you think Arkansas and especially Ole Miss should be somehow more impacted. Neither was an early adopter of integration and neither had some advantage in their white population numbers over Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida.

Sounds like you just want your more powerful neighbor to look like they always have been unimportant. If you want to look only at post 60s, they were:
1970 #11
1971 #16
1975 #7 Broyles retired after 76
1977 #3 Lou Holtz era
1978 #11
1979 #8

You are 1000% missing the point.

Arkansas was inarguably a national power until southern football integrated, as was Ole Miss.

They went from throwing top 10's to being in the top 20.

In the 18 years pre-integration Arkansas was TOP 10 in AP and coaches 9 times.
In the 49 years since? Top 10 in AP or coaches only six times.

Ole Miss in 20 seasons pre-integration was top 10 a total of 10 seasons.
In the 49 seasons post-integration top 10 only once.

Frank Broyles was a great coach and retired in 1976. They still were a top 20 program with Holtz and Hatfield. It wasn't until they entered the SEC that they cratered, over 25 years after SMU and UK broke the color barriers.

They got their share of Texas bluechips in the SWC, competing with Texas, Texas A&M and Oklahoma. Now they get very few top Texas players until the national powers and the Texas and Oklahoma Big 12 schools are done.

Who said that winning does not made a difference in recruiting?
Why would any school move to a conference where they couldn't compete?

Recruiting losers:
https://n.rivals.com/news/national-signi...d-losers-2

The Pac-12 - besides Oregon and Washington
It’s not to say that plenty of teams in the conference didn’t add a lot of talent, but once again the West Coast schools outside of the Ducks and Huskies were left to watch as five-stars left the region to sign with programs elsewhere. Of the 10 five-stars from the west region, only the Ducks (2) and Washington (1) were able to keep five-stars home, while six of the other seven available are headed outside of the Pac-12 footprint. After missing the College Football Playoff for the third straight year the conference can’t continue to let top players slip out of the region.

(12-19-2019 12:58 PM)XLance Wrote:  

(12-19-2019 10:53 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-19-2019 12:42 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 01:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-16-2019 10:57 AM)arkstfan Wrote:  IWokeUpLikeThis and Bullet, your longer time span data goes to my initial point, Arkansas began fading in the SWC with integration. The counter argument would be Arkansas faded because everyone in the SWC but Arkansas and Rice was cheating so blatantly that the NCAA needed a substation in Texas. The Hogs final burst of SWC glory came with 10 win teams that won the SWC when everyone was on probation or just coming off except Arkansas and Rice.

Those two teams each went 10-2. The 1988 team losing to Miami and UCLA (Cotton Bowl) and their non-conference wins were 8 points over 5-6 Ole Miss in Little Rock 4 points over a 4-7 Tulsa in Fayetteville and a rout of 2 win Pacific. The 1989 team lost to 5-6 Texas in Fayetteville and to Tennessee in the Cotton. Non-conference took a 9 point win over 6-6 Tulsa in Fayetteville, 7 points over an 8 win Ole Miss in Jackson and womped 2 win UTEP in Little Rock.

Arkansas was ranked 5 times in the 80s alone (82-9, 85-12, 86-15, 88-12, 89-13). They have been ranked 5 times in the nearly 30 years since (98-16, 99-17, 2006-15, 2011-12, 2012-5).

80s was long past integration. And I'm not sure how you think Arkansas and especially Ole Miss should be somehow more impacted. Neither was an early adopter of integration and neither had some advantage in their white population numbers over Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida.

Sounds like you just want your more powerful neighbor to look like they always have been unimportant. If you want to look only at post 60s, they were:
1970 #11
1971 #16
1975 #7 Broyles retired after 76
1977 #3 Lou Holtz era
1978 #11
1979 #8

You are 1000% missing the point.

Arkansas was inarguably a national power until southern football integrated, as was Ole Miss.

They went from throwing top 10's to being in the top 20.

In the 18 years pre-integration Arkansas was TOP 10 in AP and coaches 9 times.
In the 49 years since? Top 10 in AP or coaches only six times.

Ole Miss in 20 seasons pre-integration was top 10 a total of 10 seasons.
In the 49 seasons post-integration top 10 only once.

Frank Broyles was a great coach and retired in 1976. They still were a top 20 program with Holtz and Hatfield. It wasn't until they entered the SEC that they cratered, over 25 years after SMU and UK broke the color barriers.

They got their share of Texas bluechips in the SWC, competing with Texas, Texas A&M and Oklahoma. Now they get very few top Texas players until the national powers and the Texas and Oklahoma Big 12 schools are done.

Who said that winning does not made a difference in recruiting?
Why would any school move to a conference where they couldn't compete?

Recruiting losers:
https://n.rivals.com/news/national-signi...d-losers-2

The Pac-12 - besides Oregon and Washington
It’s not to say that plenty of teams in the conference didn’t add a lot of talent, but once again the West Coast schools outside of the Ducks and Huskies were left to watch as five-stars left the region to sign with programs elsewhere. Of the 10 five-stars from the west region, only the Ducks (2) and Washington (1) were able to keep five-stars home, while six of the other seven available are headed outside of the Pac-12 footprint. After missing the College Football Playoff for the third straight year the conference can’t continue to let top players slip out of the region.

To a large extent, the 5 stars have become like basketball players. Recruiting is national.
According to ESPN the top 25, some stayed in region, but a lot did not. The recruits committed:
State-School
PA-Ohio St.
NC-North Carolina
GA-Clemson
MD-Clemson
SC-South Carolina
MD-Alabama
CA-Oregon
WA-Washington
GA-LSU
GA-Georgia
NC-Clemson
OH-Ohio St.
GA-Stanford
TN-Oklahoma
DC-Georgia
FL-Clemson
VA-Notre Dame
DC-Maryland
AZ-Texas
CA-Alabama
GA-LSU