(06-17-2019 06:53 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(06-16-2019 10:00 PM)bullet Wrote:  SIU got up to about 22,000 in enrollment in the 80s.

I wonder how much of that is due to the growth of SIU-Edwardsville, which has developed a significant following in the St. Louis area from the location and offering in-state tuition.

They've grown and are at about 10,000, but combined, its still 3,000 less than SIU was on their own 30 years ago.

(06-17-2019 06:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-17-2019 03:05 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  On top of that, there's the $180 billion in unfunded pension & retirement benefits for state employees. That's $15,000 for every man, woman, and child in the state.

That has happened in many places. Sadly, politicians would accept donations from public employees unions, and then vote generous pension plans that are totally out of line with the private sector **, and they would do it because they were spending other people's (taxpayers) money.

Not sure what the solution is to that.

** E.g., my brother in law was a fireman in Washington DC for 31 years. Hard and dangerous work, for sure. But he now collects a $9,000 a month pension and he's not even 60. A system that makes retiree-millionaires out of teachers, firemen, and policemen when ordinary taxpayers are getting by on $2,000 social security payments is irretrievably broken.

The difference is that in most states, those benefits are mostly funded by the state (I think the national average is 60-70%). In Illinois, those benefits are only about 35% funded (depending on which debt you're counting), leaving the next generation to pick up the tab.

(06-17-2019 10:05 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(06-17-2019 06:34 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(06-17-2019 03:05 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  On top of that, there's the $180 billion in unfunded pension & retirement benefits for state employees. That's $15,000 for every man, woman, and child in the state.

That has happened in many places. Sadly, politicians would accept donations from public employees unions, and then vote generous pension plans that are totally out of line with the private sector **, and they would do it because they were spending other people's (taxpayers) money.

Not sure what the solution is to that.

** E.g., my brother in law was a fireman in Washington DC for 31 years. Hard and dangerous work, for sure. But he now collects a $9,000 a month pension and he's not even 60. A system that makes retiree-millionaires out of teachers, firemen, and policemen when ordinary taxpayers are getting by on $2,000 social security payments is irretrievably broken.

The difference is that in most states, those benefits are mostly funded by the state (I think the national average is 60-70%). In Illinois, those benefits are only about 35% funded (depending on which debt you're counting), leaving the next generation to pick up the tab.

Illinois is in just about the worst shape, but over-promising and under-funding of public employee pensions are a big problem in a lot of places:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin...38434e37fc

(06-16-2019 05:35 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 08:34 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Wow. This caught my eye:



click on image to expand and make more readable

I was not surprised to see the downstate school enrollment tumble, but I was a little surprised to see NIU's enrollment dip so much. Maybe because they are closer to Chicago. Maybe because my company likes to hire engineering grads from NIU. Maybe because they usually have a good football team. Maybe I just have a different percrption of NIU.

At the same time, I am a little surprised that ISU has not had the same enrollment drop as the other downstate schools. After all, Illinois St is not a flagship school like Iowa State or Purdue or Mich St, so I did not think of ISU much differently as WIU, EIU or SIU. Maybe my perception is influenced too much by a school's FBS/FCS status.

ISU has a good reputation in the state, better than its performance. People think of it as closer to UIC academically, when it's closer to NIU performance-wise. Of course, with how things work for colleges, it's a matter of time before that gap between ISU and the directionals widens.
I know there was talk for a while of trying to cultivate a second Big Ten public in Illinois, but with money how it is and UIC not sponsoring football, that idea went up in smoke. Illinois State's name came up a few times in that conversation, though.

(06-18-2019 08:43 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(06-16-2019 05:35 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 08:34 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Wow. This caught my eye:



click on image to expand and make more readable

I was not surprised to see the downstate school enrollment tumble, but I was a little surprised to see NIU's enrollment dip so much. Maybe because they are closer to Chicago. Maybe because my company likes to hire engineering grads from NIU. Maybe because they usually have a good football team. Maybe I just have a different percrption of NIU.

At the same time, I am a little surprised that ISU has not had the same enrollment drop as the other downstate schools. After all, Illinois St is not a flagship school like Iowa State or Purdue or Mich St, so I did not think of ISU much differently as WIU, EIU or SIU. Maybe my perception is influenced too much by a school's FBS/FCS status.

ISU has a good reputation in the state, better than its performance. People think of it as closer to UIC academically, when it's closer to NIU performance-wise. Of course, with how things work for colleges, it's a matter of time before that gap between ISU and the directionals widens.
I know there was talk for a while of trying to cultivate a second Big Ten public in Illinois, but with money how it is and UIC not sponsoring football, that idea went up in smoke. Illinois State's name came up a few times in that conversation, though.

For good reason. Last year Illinois State actually had higher attendance at football games than Northern Illinois. In basketball, Illinois State had 5 times the attendance of NIU.

(06-18-2019 08:43 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(06-16-2019 05:35 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 08:34 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Wow. This caught my eye:



click on image to expand and make more readable

I was not surprised to see the downstate school enrollment tumble, but I was a little surprised to see NIU's enrollment dip so much. Maybe because they are closer to Chicago. Maybe because my company likes to hire engineering grads from NIU. Maybe because they usually have a good football team. Maybe I just have a different percrption of NIU.

At the same time, I am a little surprised that ISU has not had the same enrollment drop as the other downstate schools. After all, Illinois St is not a flagship school like Iowa State or Purdue or Mich St, so I did not think of ISU much differently as WIU, EIU or SIU. Maybe my perception is influenced too much by a school's FBS/FCS status.

ISU has a good reputation in the state, better than its performance. People think of it as closer to UIC academically, when it's closer to NIU performance-wise. Of course, with how things work for colleges, it's a matter of time before that gap between ISU and the directionals widens.

I know there was talk for a while of trying to cultivate a second Big Ten public in Illinois, but with money how it is and UIC not sponsoring football, that idea went up in smoke. Illinois State's name came up a few times in that conversation, though.

Talk, of course, is very cheap. Fact is, one doesn't "cultivate" Big Ten publics. They either exist already or they don't. And in Illinois, they don't. I imagine when Illinois State's name "came up" it was an ISU fan doing the talking.

There are no good answers to Illinois' problems. All the possible outcomes are bad - some worse than others. Sadly, the higher education situation is almost akin to the dilemma some mothers in third world countries face. Do you feed only some of your children, knowing the others will likely die? Or do you continue to feed them all, realizing they could all die?

If Illinois were to close one or more directional schools, the communities they exist in would soon become ghost towns. So, which town do you kill?

(06-18-2019 11:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(06-18-2019 08:43 AM)Mav Wrote:  

(06-16-2019 05:35 PM)goofus Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 08:34 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Wow. This caught my eye:



click on image to expand and make more readable

I was not surprised to see the downstate school enrollment tumble, but I was a little surprised to see NIU's enrollment dip so much. Maybe because they are closer to Chicago. Maybe because my company likes to hire engineering grads from NIU. Maybe because they usually have a good football team. Maybe I just have a different percrption of NIU.

At the same time, I am a little surprised that ISU has not had the same enrollment drop as the other downstate schools. After all, Illinois St is not a flagship school like Iowa State or Purdue or Mich St, so I did not think of ISU much differently as WIU, EIU or SIU. Maybe my perception is influenced too much by a school's FBS/FCS status.

ISU has a good reputation in the state, better than its performance. People think of it as closer to UIC academically, when it's closer to NIU performance-wise. Of course, with how things work for colleges, it's a matter of time before that gap between ISU and the directionals widens.

I know there was talk for a while of trying to cultivate a second Big Ten public in Illinois, but with money how it is and UIC not sponsoring football, that idea went up in smoke. Illinois State's name came up a few times in that conversation, though.

Talk, of course, is very cheap. Fact is, one doesn't "cultivate" Big Ten publics. They either exist already or they don't. And in Illinois, they don't. I imagine when Illinois State's name "came up" it was an ISU fan doing the talking.

There are no good answers to Illinois' problems. All the possible outcomes are bad - some worse than others. Sadly, the higher education situation is almost akin to the dilemma some mothers in third world countries face. Do you feed only some of your children, knowing the others will likely die? Or do you continue to feed them all, realizing they could all die?

If Illinois were to close one or more directional schools, the communities they exist in would soon become ghost towns. So, which town do you kill?

The idea, if I recall, was to redirect funding and students to one campus.

The 2019 state budget has ISU receiving $66 million from the state for a 18,000 undergrads and 3,000 grad students.

Instead, what if ISU received $186 million for 33,000 undergrads and 6,000 grad students? That's what would happen if EIU, WIU, and Chicago State were closed and their students/resources were reallocated to ISU. It would look a whole lot more like a Big Ten-quality campus with that size and financial heft.

(06-16-2019 02:18 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I would guess that the mess of the Illinois "directionals" is largely due to liberal mismanagement out of Chicago.

IIRC, in the 2016 presidential election, Chicago's county provided Hillary Clinton with more than 50% of the votes she received in the entire state. So Chicago is probably far more liberal and the rest of the state is captive to its agenda, the same agenda that created the various pension and tax crises.

(06-16-2019 06:05 PM)Bronco14 Wrote:  Illinois is a mess of a state anyways right now. (Thanks Chicagoans!)


From what I hear from Huskies fans on here, NIU is actually too far from Chicago. It's in farmer's country and so that can be a problem because you're too far away from a lot of the population.

Please get off of your high horse the both of you.

(06-16-2019 10:06 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  Illinois has one of the worst public higher ed systems in the nation in terms of organization, and that's reflected in the fact that something like only 45% of college-bound students stay in-state (I believe only New Jersey is worse). The universities on the top half of MidwestMidMajor's chart are in decent shape (U of I is a top notch school, UIC is coming up as the surrounding neighborhood has boomed, ISU is well run, SIUE has done a lot to get a good base from St. Louis students) but everyone else is in a meh to bad state. I'm surprised to see NIU that low actually.

If I had a magic wand and could reorganize Illinois public universities, I'd do the following:

1. Eliminate EIU and UIS (redundant being so close to U of I and ISU).
2. Move WIU to the Quad Cities (would draw Iowa kids better in that case) and down to DII.
3. Turn CSU into a community college (politically impossible, but needed).
4. Bring SIUE into the U of I system (shouldn't be stuck under SIU, they've outgrown them).
5. Move GSU to Joliet (better serve the southern suburbs and exurbs of Chicago).
6. Create a four-year undergrad-focused college (similar to my alma mater Miami) in McHenry County to retain a lot of the north shore students who mostly end up at Big Ten schools or Miami now.

Western Illinois has a Quad Cities campus at least.

(06-18-2019 08:43 AM)Mav Wrote:  ISU has a good reputation in the state, better than its performance. People think of it as closer to UIC academically, when it's closer to NIU performance-wise. Of course, with how things work for colleges, it's a matter of time before that gap between ISU and the directionals widens.
I know there was talk for a while of trying to cultivate a second Big Ten public in Illinois, but with money how it is and UIC not sponsoring football, that idea went up in smoke. Illinois State's name came up a few times in that conversation, though.

This characterization of ISU is way off.

(06-18-2019 11:49 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The idea, if I recall, was to redirect funding and students to one campus.

The 2019 state budget has ISU receiving $66 million from the state for a 18,000 undergrads and 3,000 grad students.

Instead, what if ISU received $186 million for 33,000 undergrads and 6,000 grad students? That's what would happen if EIU, WIU, and Chicago State were closed and their students/resources were reallocated to ISU. It would look a whole lot more like a Big Ten-quality campus with that size and financial heft.

I know that ISU's current plans are to not grow in student size, but to remain constant. They will get a bump if they approve the engineering school.

Too bad the state hasn't been able to allocate the funds the schools are entitled to if everything was going smoothly. The issues with SIU, WIU, and EIU would be much smaller most likely.

(06-18-2019 11:49 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The idea, if I recall, was to redirect funding and students to one campus.

Why do I care about this?
1. I care about college sports (which means...)
2. I care about colleges, specifically educational opportunities for young people.

I have family members that went to Penn State which has an integrated system around the entire state under the "Penn State" umbrella: 2 year schools, tiny 4 year campuses (with limited offerings), medium 4 year campuses, and the main campus (with extensive offerings). The first two years of education for any Penn State major are available at all campuses; however, some majors can only be completed at specific campuses.

Would there be efficiencies and savings to have ISU-Macomb; ISU-Carbondale, ISU-Charleston, etc.? Would that keep the doors open? The separate campuses in the Penn State system have their own sports teams (at the USCCA and d3 level; Pitt-Johnston is d2).

Since I currently live in a rural area, I am very attuned that rural areas have less educational options than urban areas. That's why I'd hate to see the Macomb campus close completely. ISU-Macomb is better than "For Sale"-Macomb. If WIU continues to shed 400 students per year, I can't see it staying open 8 years due to the infrastructure overhead costs with 64 buildings on 1050 acres.

(06-18-2019 11:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  If Illinois were to close one or more directional schools, the communities they exist in would soon become ghost towns. So, which town do you kill?

Their natural state should’ve been nothing-towns though. No one would’ve ever heard of Charleston, DeKalb, or Macomb if there weren’t schools in them (Carbondale is at least part of a regional identity “Little Egypt”). Those schools should’ve been located in some combination of Rockford, Quad Cities, Naperville, Joliet, Decatur, Effingham (crossroads, 200-ft cross), Springfield, or Edwardsville.

(06-18-2019 01:01 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  

(06-18-2019 11:20 AM)ken d Wrote:  If Illinois were to close one or more directional schools, the communities they exist in would soon become ghost towns. So, which town do you kill?

Their natural state should’ve been nothing-towns though. No one would’ve ever heard of Charleston, DeKalb, or Macomb if there weren’t schools in them (Carbondale is at least part of a regional identity “Little Egypt”). Those schools should’ve been located in some combination of Rockford, Quad Cities, Naperville, Joliet, Decatur, Effingham (crossroads, 200-ft cross), Springfield, or Edwardsville.

Rockford was offered NIU and rejected it because they didn't like the location NIU asked for. Dekalb was plan B.

(06-18-2019 12:11 PM)BirdstheWord Wrote:  

(06-18-2019 08:43 AM)Mav Wrote:  ISU has a good reputation in the state, better than its performance. People think of it as closer to UIC academically, when it's closer to NIU performance-wise. Of course, with how things work for colleges, it's a matter of time before that gap between ISU and the directionals widens.
I know there was talk for a while of trying to cultivate a second Big Ten public in Illinois, but with money how it is and UIC not sponsoring football, that idea went up in smoke. Illinois State's name came up a few times in that conversation, though.

This characterization of ISU is way off.

Explain. I'm fairly new to the area so I only know what I've seen from others the last couple years.

(06-14-2019 08:34 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Wow. This caught my eye:



click on image to expand and make more readable

Northern Illinois needs SIE, EIU or WIU to fold to help them out with their enrollment. Illinois just needs NIU and SIU. Shutdown Western and Eastern. Illinois State is stable and serves the middle of the state with U of I.

(06-18-2019 03:03 PM)Miami (Oh) Yeah ! Wrote:  

(06-14-2019 08:34 PM)MidWestMidMajor Wrote:  Wow. This caught my eye:



click on image to expand and make more readable

Northern Illinois needs SIE, EIU or WIU to fold to help them out with their enrollment. Illinois just needs NIU and SIU. Shutdown Western and Eastern. Illinois State is stable and serves the middle of the state with U of I.

Problem is that Illinois is already underserved for higher ed. it's a major exporter of students. Shutting down schools will only make that worse.

It's a shame because Illinois spends a ton of money on higher ed. That's the problem with union-run states - they spend way more than non-union states but get they do a worse job of meeting the public's needs.

(06-18-2019 02:48 PM)Mav Wrote:  Explain. I'm fairly new to the area so I only know what I've seen from others the last couple years.

As least as far as undergrad rankings and quality is concerned, ISU is much closer to UIC than NIU.

(06-18-2019 03:25 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Problem is that Illinois is already underserved for higher ed. it's a major exporter of students. Shutting down schools will only make that worse.

Quite ... there is a gap between Illinois and ISU/UIC that schools in surrounding states exploit to fill up their out-of-state tuition coffers ... including my alma mater Miami, which got (and AFAIU still gets) roughly 1/5 of its students from Chicago-land.

In many states, the natural school to fill in that hole between the ultra-selective world class flagship and the regional University network would be the land grant ... but in Illinois, the land grant is the ultra-selective admission, so that is off the table.

(06-16-2019 10:06 AM)Love and Honor Wrote:  1. Eliminate EIU and UIS (redundant being so close to U of I and ISU).

The idea that EIU is redundant because it's an hour drive away from Illinois is absurd ... Illinois is a world class University, among the top 50 in the world and top 30 in the United States on the Shanghai list. Illinois's service is to the state, the nation and the world (the latter on a fee for service basis) ... it's primary service to the local area is as an employer, not as an educational institution, as the vast majority of the college bound graduates from it's local area have 0% chance of getting into Illinois.

The 5 people who live in Coles County can go to ISUb (1 hr away), ISUr (1.5 hrs away), SIUE (2 hrs away), or SIU (2.5 hrs away).

EIU is strategically one of the worst located schools in the country. At least put them somewhere with college town potential like Decatur or something.