(02-27-2019 01:20 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  [quote='esayem' pid='15935257' dateline='1551288841']
[quote='Hokie Mark' pid='15935196' dateline='1551287201']
- having WVU would create marquee matchups with Pitt, Syracuse, BC, VT, Miami, UVA, Louisville, Clemson and FSU (and arguably NC State as well).

Quote:I see marquee TV match-ups with Virginia Tech, Clemson, and FSU but the rest depend on a scenario where both teams are playing well. Pitt and WVU is a great rivalry, but is it nationally important if both teams are marginal?

Quote:Wouldnt the same reasoning apply with Clemson, FSU and VT as it would with the rest?

I suppose it could. They’ve been pretty consistent except for FSU bumbling about.

In the content driven world the ACC or any conference needs to be more regional, not more expansive.
Unfortunately for the ACC and for the PAC:
in the natural world things exist in a linear fashion, that would only be broken up by a natural barrier (mountain, big river, etc.).
That means that the natural flow is east-west not north-south.
The challenge the ACC (and the PAC) has to overcome, is the attempt to knit two unlike regions together.

If you are working on an unnatural basis, it would be imperative to keep things as tight east-west as possible (and within natural barriers). The ACC ignored this at the behest of ESPN to stretch west to include Notre Dame and subsequently Louisville. This moved our western limit to include any school in the eastern time zone on an axis stretching from South Bend to Tallahassee. This limits expansion candidates to several SEC schools (Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Florida and Kentucky) or a few B1G schools (Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland or Ohio State), or one school located in the Big 12 (West Virginia).
Since West Virginia is located in the area where the three distinct areas of the ACC intersect, and because West Virginia is a physical outlier in the Big 12 and not out of our price range like the schools of the B1G and the SEC........... West Virginia becomes the single most logical target of ACC expansion.
I only hope they can learn to behave.

(02-28-2019 06:13 AM)XLance Wrote:  In the content driven world the ACC or any conference needs to be more regional, not more expansive.
Unfortunately for the ACC and for the PAC:
in the natural world things exist in a linear fashion, that would only be broken up by a natural barrier (mountain, big river, etc.).
That means that the natural flow is east-west not north-south.
The challenge the ACC (and the PAC) has to overcome, is the attempt to knit two unlike regions together.

If you are working on an unnatural basis, it would be imperative to keep things as tight east-west as possible (and within natural barriers). The ACC ignored this at the behest of ESPN to stretch west to include Notre Dame and subsequently Louisville. This moved our western limit to include any school in the eastern time zone on an axis stretching from South Bend to Tallahassee. This limits expansion candidates to several SEC schools (Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Florida and Kentucky) or a few B1G schools (Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland or Ohio State), or one school located in the Big 12 (West Virginia).
Since West Virginia is located in the area where the three distinct areas of the ACC intersect, and because West Virginia is a physical outlier in the Big 12 and not out of our price range like the schools of the B1G and the SEC........... West Virginia becomes the single most logical target of ACC expansion.
I only hope they can learn to behave.

Well said! A humble, honest evaluation. (And yes, I agree on the "learn to behave" part, too).

West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

(02-28-2019 12:54 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

Absolutely! I wasn't disagreeing with your point about Temple - far from it! I was just adding that Cincinnati could have been in a similar situation (but got started too late and still wouldn't have been as big as Philadelphia).

Temple?

(02-28-2019 12:54 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

WVa was not a "lock" to replace MD.

Regular Endowment ARWU World Ranking Forbes US New Ranking
1. 960 M 201-300 330 171
2. 1.16 B 201-300 375 135
3. 740 M 151-200 163 178
4. 720 M 401-500 428 171
5. 566 M 401-500 360 170
6. 513 M 301-400 364 106



In this mix is Temple, Houston, Cincy, FSU, West Va, and Louisville - can you match them?


1. Houston
2. Cincy
3. FSU
4. Louisville
5. West Va
6. Temple

(02-28-2019 04:48 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Regular Endowment ARWU World Ranking Forbes US New Ranking
1. 960 M 201-300 330 171
2. 1.16 B 201-300 375 135
3. 740 M 151-200 163 178
4. 720 M 401-500 428 171
5. 566 M 401-500 360 170
6. 513 M 301-400 364 106

In this mix is Temple, Houston, Cincy, FSU, West Va, and Louisville - can you match them?

My off the top thinking:
I knew WVU was the bottom two because they have a tiny endowment as you'd imagine. I would have also placed FSU at #3 due to the clearly higher Forbes ranking. I'd give Louisville either #4 or the non-WVU #5/6 slot. By elimination #1 and #2 must be Houston and Cincinnati, though not sure on the order.

So, while I would not have been able to get them exactly right, I had a decent ballpark feel.

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

I know we've had ACC officials on campus to check things out. We royally ****** up back in the day, and things are so completely different now. The school and campus are booming, and the football program is really on the rise.

(02-28-2019 04:48 PM)Statefan Wrote:  Regular Endowment ARWU World Ranking Forbes US New Ranking
1. 960 M 201-300 330 171
2. 1.16 B 201-300 375 135
3. 740 M 151-200 163 178
4. 720 M 401-500 428 171
5. 566 M 401-500 360 170
6. 513 M 301-400 364 106



In this mix is Temple, Houston, Cincy, FSU, West Va, and Louisville - can you match them?


1. Houston
2. Cincy
3. FSU
4. Louisville
5. West Va
6. Temple

Our endowment is about $615.5M

(02-28-2019 05:37 PM)JHG722 Wrote:  Our endowment is about $615.5M

Temple University FY2018
#166 $642.3M

https://www.nacubo.org/-/media/Nacubo/Do...35710C1C03

(02-28-2019 04:31 PM)Statefan Wrote:  WVa was not a "lock" to replace MD.

I've gone back and forth on this actually. Sometimes I feel like WVU would have been a lock, other times I feel like Louisville may still have received the nod. What we do know is that the Big XII chose WVU over Louisville, so that leads me to believe it would have been between WVU and Louisville if the two were both available. UConn apparently did not have enough support.

(02-28-2019 04:31 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 12:54 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

WVa was not a "lock" to replace MD.

Correct!, and despite West Virginia being a logical choice to be added to the ACC when the Big 12 implodes in a few years, the Mountaineers are still not a "lock" to get an ACC invitation.

(03-01-2019 05:47 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 04:31 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 12:54 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

WVa was not a "lock" to replace MD.

Correct!, and despite West Virginia being a logical choice to be added to the ACC when the Big 12 implodes in a few years, the Mountaineers are still not a "lock" to get an ACC invitation.

There’s no way to know for sure. WVU fit perfectly in the Atlantic Division, especially if BC and Pitt traded spots:

BC-Syracuse
UVa-Pitt
VaTech-WVU
UNC-NCSU
Duke-Wake
GT-Clem
Miami-FSU

The Backyard Brawl is restored to Rivalry Week. BC-SU-Miami could rotate a Rivalry Week match-up depending on when Syracuse plays Miami. Built-in rivalry games with Syracuse and Virginia Tech, plus annual games with Clemson and FSU. It would be hard to pass up.

(02-28-2019 12:54 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

Are you suggesting that the Louisville market is bigger than Cincinnati's? Not even close. And while I agree that Cincy's commitment to football came later than Louisville's, it was no less strong when both schools were in the Big East. In fact, Cincy won more conference football championships than UofL. UC's academic and fiscal metrics (USN&WR, ARWU, endowment, etc.) are also superior.

(03-01-2019 12:17 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 12:54 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

Are you suggesting that the Louisville market is bigger than Cincinnati's? Not even close. And while I agree that Cincy's commitment to football came later than Louisville's, it was no less strong when both schools were in the Big East. In fact, Cincy won more conference football championships than UofL. UC's academic and fiscal metrics (USN&WR, ARWU, endowment, etc.) are also superior.

Cincy was decent, especially in 08 and 09 ... but ... what hurts their perception, was being upset (Cincy was the higher ranked team in both their BCS games) in the BCS bowl games they played in. Whereas Louisville as underdogs (at least by ranking) in their BCS games enhanced their perception with solid to dominant wins.

(03-01-2019 12:17 PM)colohank Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 12:54 PM)esayem Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 11:34 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  

(02-28-2019 08:46 AM)esayem Wrote:  West Virginia and Temple it is.

The ACC gets more DC alumni and creates a presence in Philly. Take that Big 10.

Seriously though, I’m conservative when it comes to any more expansion. I will say, and I’ve said this before, Temple would be in instead of Louisville had they gotten their act together in the early 2000’s and never received the Big East boot.

No doubt Temple is in a great location - lots of recruits live a short distance away.

That said, Cincinnati would beat out WVU for the same reasons - had they made the necessary commitment sooner.

West Virginia was gone to the Big XII and off the table. Otherwise they would have been a lock to replace Maryland. I don't think Cincinnati would have beaten out Louisville, because they actually did make a commitment and did fairly well.

Remember, when Louisville was added schools were still considered for their markets primarily (although the ACC was unique because a commitment to football was necessary). Philly is 4th in the latest DMA listing. Cincinnati is 36th. Even combined with Dayton they float around 20th.

So a strong Temple football program that committed in the late 90's/early 2000's wouldn't have been booted from the Big East and would have been a legit contender.

Are you suggesting that the Louisville market is bigger than Cincinnati's? Not even close. And while I agree that Cincy's commitment to football came later than Louisville's, it was no less strong when both schools were in the Big East. In fact, Cincy won more conference football championships than UofL. UC's academic and fiscal metrics (USN&WR, ARWU, endowment, etc.) are also superior.

No, I'm actually saying market was not the deciding factor to replace Maryland. But for those that want to bring it up all the time, I can point to Temple, or even UConn (if they get a slice of NYC). Syracuse and Pitt's market presence was definitely considered when the ACC expanded. The Louisville situation was unique because they were a replacement.

Louisville was the hot ticket in 2012 when Maryland left. The only other school remotely considered was UConn, and that was shot down by the football side of the conference. No doubt Cincinnati was good that year, but you have to wonder why they weren't considered more, especially considering their academics and profile was more in line with the other ACC members. I have a theory it has to do with elevating a program in a desirable recruiting ground.