(11-16-2018 08:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 07:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 07:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  There's a big difference between accepting that there are awful people that will use basic freedoms to promote hatred of minorities and tolerating those behaviors.

Yea, if you think that America is a white Christian straight nation where those cultural norms should be supreme, then of course, we're going to condemn that. If you think we should align with a murderous thug who has actual death camps for Gay people in his country, then of course I'm going to say that's unacceptable.

There's a difference between accepting that people are going to say offensive things and allowing people to normalize that speech.

Tom, you've answered my question by condemning yourself. I am straight and by definition mostly White. I do have some Native American heritage confirmed in the family tree. I have worked on behalf of civil rights, have done some community organizing on behalf of the poor in a community where their children were going to be subjugated to pollutants hazardous to their health and as I had to point out to the health of those around them. I have employed gay people and worked on projects with others. I've taken battered women to shelters when their drunken husbands were threatening me with a gun, stopped a perp from mugging a woman in the parking lot of a mall where I was threatened with knife.

I've put life and skin on the line for those who likely wouldn't vote for who I would vote for, who would say things contrary to what I believe, but they knew where I stood on some of these issues and yet didn't flinch to do the same.

What has pissed me off no end where you are concerned is that you projected your hatred on to me just because of my political beliefs and without knowing me as a person. You have reveled in specious tactics giving your side election victories under spurious circumstances.

My caveat was within the law. I think that covers hate speech there sport. I don't and haven't hated anyone, but I don't trust people who think that when I disagree with their positions that my rights ought to be taken away. Apparently by your answer you do. We've been talking foreign politics, not domestic social issues. Radicals always want to take away their oppositions right to free speech, to take away their property if they have the chance, and they love a pound of flesh whether the actual person before them is guilty of damned thing or not.

The fact that you would place Gay rights and abuse of Gays before the national interests is proof to me of where your priorities reside. Mine reside with the health of this nation because that's where almost everyone I love and esteem lives. You want tolerance and it's been given freely by many many more people than who would deride you. But you give no tolerance back. If I were to hold to a Biblical view of morality, which is not prohibited by the law and is my right, you would classify me as a hater because it doesn't conform to your view of morality. That isn't tolerance Tom! If I vote for policies that recognize China as our most lethal adversary and would utilize some form of cooperation with Russia that is my political right. You insinuate that it makes me a gay hater. My view is that it would be in the best interest of our nation. By the way Tom the Chinese are even less tolerant than Russia. You conform to their norms in China. The folks that don't simply aren't heard from again. They don't tolerate other cultures except for business when they need something. They have the most successful assimilation program in history. Chinese move in and pretty soon only Chinese live there. Check out Cambodia. It really makes conquest and assimilation even if it isn't formalized quite effective.

Tom there are many Americans who will not accept the Gay lifestyle as moral. But if they don't persecute you, don't assault you, and don't try to deny your rights that is the essence of tolerance. The American in which you would live would force compliance of even these most personal of choices. Tom you are the fascist here. Practicing Christians, sadly of which there aren't as many as the other variety, would never harm you because it is against there faith. But your hatred of faith came through loud and clear in your post.

I find you to be a hypocrite to the very tolerance you preach. Tolerance for you is everyone being forced to comply to your personal choices. Freedom doesn't work that way.

I pushed you Tom because your form of liberalism and your intolerance are not only destructive to true liberalism, but destructive to the fabric of freedom and true tolerance that is the United States of America. One Nation, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All is something I take seriously. And yet what you have espoused many times is contrary to Unity because you do divide, and it is contrary to liberty because you would take away my rights to practice morality as I see fit, to think as I see fit, and to speak my views freely if they didn't conform to your vision for America.

American has to be big enough for many visions, but wise enough to govern by consensus.

You can espouse what you wish here and I'll leave you alone for the most part. But you have no credibility sir, at least not when it comes to affirming every American's rights to disagree, to believe as they see fit, to say what they believe publicly, and you certainly don't display empathy for fair elections based on your defenses of what are plainly atrocities in Broward and other such spots, and your assessment of China versus Russia defies logic, but now I at least know why.

But ancient wisdom from the far east says that any enemy of my enemy is my friend, and I would add "for now."

I knew you couldn't answer a question about self sacrifice for those who may not be able to agree with you because to do so you would have to place something ahead of self and everything you post starts and ends with that world view.

It looks like you might need a nap.

The safety and freedom of my people is ultimately my only priority, especially if it is under direct and ongoing threat. And the threat is real.

I am a GLOBALIST, not a nativist/nationalist.

The building I'm in is on fire and you're asking me to stop fighting the fire and help the guy carrying more gas to the fire.

----

After 2 years of Trump and all the horrors that it has revealed, I really don't have time to focus on overreach.

Is Duda's plan to deny all freedom of speech, petition, protest, assembly, association, press, due process and expression in Poland an acceptable cultural expression or something that should be fought? Since Trump has abrogated America's normal role in doing so, I have to consider who will stand up in cases like this. And in Poland's case, that is Merkel and the EU.

Farange and his fellow travelers in the BNP/UKIP have repeatedly and richly earned our reflexive opposition, through their statements and associations. Right now, if it hurts the ONLY people who are doing anything to stop attacks on my people and threats to my freedom, then I'm going to reflexively defend those who defend my people.

By the way, they might not be the biggest losers, but probably will be. The biggest losers are likely to be the civilized people in the Conservatives who foolishly tried to appease the Farange side, and will probably end up and get destroyed politically by it.

Tom your building isn't on fire in the United States and people who are your fellow citizens are not your enemy. But by your own admission you don't prize your citizenship since you are a Globalist which means we can't count on you when things threaten our way of life.

That sums up your narcissism beautifully. I got news for you. Most of the Globe is out to kill you. You had better know who has your back and you had better have theirs.

But thank you for clearly stating to the board what it is that you are about, and why it is that you despise their rights.

Our way of life isn't supporting Putin. Our way of life isn't destroying the EU. Our way of life isn't destroying our immigrant culture. Might be some of you guys way to support YOUR way of life.

Yes, many around the Globe want my people dead, marginalized, or abused. The problem is, we can't fight them all at the same time so we have on the greatest threat. And I'm focusing on the greatest threat to MY freedom and my fellow Americans' freedom. That person is Vladimir Putin (not ISIS - not by a long shot) internationally.

I wish our community could have the privilege of worrying about obscure points in the realm of legislation like we're over at the corner over at National Review. We don't.

We've seen enough to know that Farange is a bad player. And he's either willing or not, advancing the cause of Putin. So of course, I"m going to celebrate him getting punked. Sure, Farange might have nominally more power (he may probably enter Commons in the next election), but I certainly want a UK where his movement has been discredited with the majority of the population. And I think this fiasco reduces his actual power.

Who has my back... Merkel, Macron, Trudeau and the EU. That's basically it. Trump most certainly does NOT have our back. That's a demonstrable fact.

My country is a diverse USA that respects human rights and basic freedoms and opposes discrimination. And where white supremacy (or any other kind of supremacy) is not the power metric. We're not to that point yet on the supremacy, but we're getting close enough so that I certainly am going to root for the EU and oppose threats to it.

Nobody should have you back because gay sex ins't a constitutional nor a human tight. Your entire lens of existence is gay sex gay sex gay sex. The USA is the most anti White Supremacist Nation on the planet.

(11-16-2018 09:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 07:38 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Tom, you've answered my question by condemning yourself. I am straight and by definition mostly White. I do have some Native American heritage confirmed in the family tree. I have worked on behalf of civil rights, have done some community organizing on behalf of the poor in a community where their children were going to be subjugated to pollutants hazardous to their health and as I had to point out to the health of those around them. I have employed gay people and worked on projects with others. I've taken battered women to shelters when their drunken husbands were threatening me with a gun, stopped a perp from mugging a woman in the parking lot of a mall where I was threatened with knife.

I've put life and skin on the line for those who likely wouldn't vote for who I would vote for, who would say things contrary to what I believe, but they knew where I stood on some of these issues and yet didn't flinch to do the same.

What has pissed me off no end where you are concerned is that you projected your hatred on to me just because of my political beliefs and without knowing me as a person. You have reveled in specious tactics giving your side election victories under spurious circumstances.

My caveat was within the law. I think that covers hate speech there sport. I don't and haven't hated anyone, but I don't trust people who think that when I disagree with their positions that my rights ought to be taken away. Apparently by your answer you do. We've been talking foreign politics, not domestic social issues. Radicals always want to take away their oppositions right to free speech, to take away their property if they have the chance, and they love a pound of flesh whether the actual person before them is guilty of damned thing or not.

The fact that you would place Gay rights and abuse of Gays before the national interests is proof to me of where your priorities reside. Mine reside with the health of this nation because that's where almost everyone I love and esteem lives. You want tolerance and it's been given freely by many many more people than who would deride you. But you give no tolerance back. If I were to hold to a Biblical view of morality, which is not prohibited by the law and is my right, you would classify me as a hater because it doesn't conform to your view of morality. That isn't tolerance Tom! If I vote for policies that recognize China as our most lethal adversary and would utilize some form of cooperation with Russia that is my political right. You insinuate that it makes me a gay hater. My view is that it would be in the best interest of our nation. By the way Tom the Chinese are even less tolerant than Russia. You conform to their norms in China. The folks that don't simply aren't heard from again. They don't tolerate other cultures except for business when they need something. They have the most successful assimilation program in history. Chinese move in and pretty soon only Chinese live there. Check out Cambodia. It really makes conquest and assimilation even if it isn't formalized quite effective.

Tom there are many Americans who will not accept the Gay lifestyle as moral. But if they don't persecute you, don't assault you, and don't try to deny your rights that is the essence of tolerance. The American in which you would live would force compliance of even these most personal of choices. Tom you are the fascist here. Practicing Christians, sadly of which there aren't as many as the other variety, would never harm you because it is against there faith. But your hatred of faith came through loud and clear in your post.

I find you to be a hypocrite to the very tolerance you preach. Tolerance for you is everyone being forced to comply to your personal choices. Freedom doesn't work that way.

I pushed you Tom because your form of liberalism and your intolerance are not only destructive to true liberalism, but destructive to the fabric of freedom and true tolerance that is the United States of America. One Nation, Indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for All is something I take seriously. And yet what you have espoused many times is contrary to Unity because you do divide, and it is contrary to liberty because you would take away my rights to practice morality as I see fit, to think as I see fit, and to speak my views freely if they didn't conform to your vision for America.

American has to be big enough for many visions, but wise enough to govern by consensus.

You can espouse what you wish here and I'll leave you alone for the most part. But you have no credibility sir, at least not when it comes to affirming every American's rights to disagree, to believe as they see fit, to say what they believe publicly, and you certainly don't display empathy for fair elections based on your defenses of what are plainly atrocities in Broward and other such spots, and your assessment of China versus Russia defies logic, but now I at least know why.

But ancient wisdom from the far east says that any enemy of my enemy is my friend, and I would add "for now."

I knew you couldn't answer a question about self sacrifice for those who may not be able to agree with you because to do so you would have to place something ahead of self and everything you post starts and ends with that world view.

It looks like you might need a nap.

The safety and freedom of my people is ultimately my only priority, especially if it is under direct and ongoing threat. And the threat is real.

I am a GLOBALIST, not a nativist/nationalist.

The building I'm in is on fire and you're asking me to stop fighting the fire and help the guy carrying more gas to the fire.

----

After 2 years of Trump and all the horrors that it has revealed, I really don't have time to focus on overreach.

Is Duda's plan to deny all freedom of speech, petition, protest, assembly, association, press, due process and expression in Poland an acceptable cultural expression or something that should be fought? Since Trump has abrogated America's normal role in doing so, I have to consider who will stand up in cases like this. And in Poland's case, that is Merkel and the EU.

Farange and his fellow travelers in the BNP/UKIP have repeatedly and richly earned our reflexive opposition, through their statements and associations. Right now, if it hurts the ONLY people who are doing anything to stop attacks on my people and threats to my freedom, then I'm going to reflexively defend those who defend my people.

By the way, they might not be the biggest losers, but probably will be. The biggest losers are likely to be the civilized people in the Conservatives who foolishly tried to appease the Farange side, and will probably end up and get destroyed politically by it.

Tom your building isn't on fire in the United States and people who are your fellow citizens are not your enemy. But by your own admission you don't prize your citizenship since you are a Globalist which means we can't count on you when things threaten our way of life.

That sums up your narcissism beautifully. I got news for you. Most of the Globe is out to kill you. You had better know who has your back and you had better have theirs.

But thank you for clearly stating to the board what it is that you are about, and why it is that you despise their rights.

Our way of life isn't supporting Putin. Our way of life isn't destroying the EU. Our way of life isn't destroying our immigrant culture. Might be some of you guys way to support YOUR way of life.

Yes, many around the Globe want my people dead, marginalized, or abused. The problem is, we can't fight them all at the same time so we have on the greatest threat. And I'm focusing on the greatest threat to MY freedom and my fellow Americans' freedom. That person is Vladimir Putin (not ISIS - not by a long shot) internationally.

I wish our community could have the privilege of worrying about obscure points in the realm of legislation like we're over at the corner over at National Review. We don't.

We've seen enough to know that Farange is a bad player. And he's either willing or not, advancing the cause of Putin. So of course, I"m going to celebrate him getting punked. Sure, Farange might have nominally more power (he may probably enter Commons in the next election), but I certainly want a UK where his movement has been discredited with the majority of the population. And I think this fiasco reduces his actual power.

Who has my back... Merkel, Macron, Trudeau and the EU. That's basically it. Trump most certainly does NOT have our back. That's a demonstrable fact.

My country is a diverse USA that respects human rights and basic freedoms and opposes discrimination. And where white supremacy (or any other kind of supremacy) is not the power metric. We're not to that point yet on the supremacy, but we're getting close enough so that I certainly am going to root for the EU and oppose threats to it.

Nobody should have you back because gay sex ins't a constitutional nor a human tight. Your entire lens of existence is gay sex gay sex gay sex. The USA is the most anti White Supremacist Nation on the planet.

I think Trump agrees with your assertion that I have no rights in this Country and no standing other than to take whatever indignities that the supremacist culture decides for me.

Gee, I wonder why I don't 'just trust' nativists/nationalists like SFC and his ideological allies?

I rest my case.

------

Hmm, I trying to figure out what humiliation would be the best outcome for Farange and his anti-EU Brexiteers. Is it to have 60 Labourites vote for the 'Deal' and have Brexit be an utter joke?

Or

Do I just want a hard Brexit with Labour, the SNP, and the LibDems completely free of any involvement in the deal?

(11-16-2018 09:18 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 09:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  It looks like you might need a nap.

The safety and freedom of my people is ultimately my only priority, especially if it is under direct and ongoing threat. And the threat is real.

I am a GLOBALIST, not a nativist/nationalist.

The building I'm in is on fire and you're asking me to stop fighting the fire and help the guy carrying more gas to the fire.

----

After 2 years of Trump and all the horrors that it has revealed, I really don't have time to focus on overreach.

Is Duda's plan to deny all freedom of speech, petition, protest, assembly, association, press, due process and expression in Poland an acceptable cultural expression or something that should be fought? Since Trump has abrogated America's normal role in doing so, I have to consider who will stand up in cases like this. And in Poland's case, that is Merkel and the EU.

Farange and his fellow travelers in the BNP/UKIP have repeatedly and richly earned our reflexive opposition, through their statements and associations. Right now, if it hurts the ONLY people who are doing anything to stop attacks on my people and threats to my freedom, then I'm going to reflexively defend those who defend my people.

By the way, they might not be the biggest losers, but probably will be. The biggest losers are likely to be the civilized people in the Conservatives who foolishly tried to appease the Farange side, and will probably end up and get destroyed politically by it.

Tom your building isn't on fire in the United States and people who are your fellow citizens are not your enemy. But by your own admission you don't prize your citizenship since you are a Globalist which means we can't count on you when things threaten our way of life.

That sums up your narcissism beautifully. I got news for you. Most of the Globe is out to kill you. You had better know who has your back and you had better have theirs.

But thank you for clearly stating to the board what it is that you are about, and why it is that you despise their rights.

Our way of life isn't supporting Putin. Our way of life isn't destroying the EU. Our way of life isn't destroying our immigrant culture. Might be some of you guys way to support YOUR way of life.

Yes, many around the Globe want my people dead, marginalized, or abused. The problem is, we can't fight them all at the same time so we have on the greatest threat. And I'm focusing on the greatest threat to MY freedom and my fellow Americans' freedom. That person is Vladimir Putin (not ISIS - not by a long shot) internationally.

I wish our community could have the privilege of worrying about obscure points in the realm of legislation like we're over at the corner over at National Review. We don't.

We've seen enough to know that Farange is a bad player. And he's either willing or not, advancing the cause of Putin. So of course, I"m going to celebrate him getting punked. Sure, Farange might have nominally more power (he may probably enter Commons in the next election), but I certainly want a UK where his movement has been discredited with the majority of the population. And I think this fiasco reduces his actual power.

Who has my back... Merkel, Macron, Trudeau and the EU. That's basically it. Trump most certainly does NOT have our back. That's a demonstrable fact.

My country is a diverse USA that respects human rights and basic freedoms and opposes discrimination. And where white supremacy (or any other kind of supremacy) is not the power metric. We're not to that point yet on the supremacy, but we're getting close enough so that I certainly am going to root for the EU and oppose threats to it.

Nobody should have you back because gay sex ins't a constitutional nor a human tight. Your entire lens of existence is gay sex gay sex gay sex. The USA is the most anti White Supremacist Nation on the planet.

I think Trump agrees with your assertion that I have no rights in this Country and no standing other than to take whatever indignities that the supremacist culture decides for me.

Gee, I wonder why I don't 'just trust' nativists/nationalists like SFC and his ideological allies?

I rest my case.

------

Hmm, I trying to figure out what humiliation would be the best outcome for Farange and his anti-EU Brexiteers. Is it to have 60 Labourites vote for the 'Deal' and have Brexit be an utter joke?

Or

Do I just want a hard Brexit with Labour, the SNP, and the LibDems completely free of any involvement in the deal?

The same as every individual including heterosexuals. This is important to understand for you Tom. You are not special because you have gay homosexual sex. 100 years from now gay men holding hands and playing kiss face at the suburban cul de sac cookout, when everyone else is heterosexual couple with kids......it is still going to be the same. This what you want, not going to happen. Oh and BTW the immigrants to USA post 1965 are the most likely to be anti gay.

(11-16-2018 09:32 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 09:18 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 09:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:05 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Tom your building isn't on fire in the United States and people who are your fellow citizens are not your enemy. But by your own admission you don't prize your citizenship since you are a Globalist which means we can't count on you when things threaten our way of life.

That sums up your narcissism beautifully. I got news for you. Most of the Globe is out to kill you. You had better know who has your back and you had better have theirs.

But thank you for clearly stating to the board what it is that you are about, and why it is that you despise their rights.

Our way of life isn't supporting Putin. Our way of life isn't destroying the EU. Our way of life isn't destroying our immigrant culture. Might be some of you guys way to support YOUR way of life.

Yes, many around the Globe want my people dead, marginalized, or abused. The problem is, we can't fight them all at the same time so we have on the greatest threat. And I'm focusing on the greatest threat to MY freedom and my fellow Americans' freedom. That person is Vladimir Putin (not ISIS - not by a long shot) internationally.

I wish our community could have the privilege of worrying about obscure points in the realm of legislation like we're over at the corner over at National Review. We don't.

We've seen enough to know that Farange is a bad player. And he's either willing or not, advancing the cause of Putin. So of course, I"m going to celebrate him getting punked. Sure, Farange might have nominally more power (he may probably enter Commons in the next election), but I certainly want a UK where his movement has been discredited with the majority of the population. And I think this fiasco reduces his actual power.

Who has my back... Merkel, Macron, Trudeau and the EU. That's basically it. Trump most certainly does NOT have our back. That's a demonstrable fact.

My country is a diverse USA that respects human rights and basic freedoms and opposes discrimination. And where white supremacy (or any other kind of supremacy) is not the power metric. We're not to that point yet on the supremacy, but we're getting close enough so that I certainly am going to root for the EU and oppose threats to it.

Nobody should have you back because gay sex ins't a constitutional nor a human tight. Your entire lens of existence is gay sex gay sex gay sex. The USA is the most anti White Supremacist Nation on the planet.

I think Trump agrees with your assertion that I have no rights in this Country and no standing other than to take whatever indignities that the supremacist culture decides for me.

Gee, I wonder why I don't 'just trust' nativists/nationalists like SFC and his ideological allies?

I rest my case.

------

Hmm, I trying to figure out what humiliation would be the best outcome for Farange and his anti-EU Brexiteers. Is it to have 60 Labourites vote for the 'Deal' and have Brexit be an utter joke?

Or

Do I just want a hard Brexit with Labour, the SNP, and the LibDems completely free of any involvement in the deal?

The same as every individual including heterosexuals. This is important to understand for you Tom. You are not special because you have gay homosexual sex. 100 years from now gay men holding hands and playing kiss face at the suburban cul de sac cookout, when everyone else is heterosexual couple with kids......it is still going to be the same. This what you want, not going to happen. Oh and BTW the immigrants to USA post 1965 are the most likely to be anti gay.

You know what, I'd rather take my chances with the post 1965 immigrants than with the nativists/nationalists.

(11-16-2018 09:55 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 09:32 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 09:18 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 09:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 08:46 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Our way of life isn't supporting Putin. Our way of life isn't destroying the EU. Our way of life isn't destroying our immigrant culture. Might be some of you guys way to support YOUR way of life.

Yes, many around the Globe want my people dead, marginalized, or abused. The problem is, we can't fight them all at the same time so we have on the greatest threat. And I'm focusing on the greatest threat to MY freedom and my fellow Americans' freedom. That person is Vladimir Putin (not ISIS - not by a long shot) internationally.

I wish our community could have the privilege of worrying about obscure points in the realm of legislation like we're over at the corner over at National Review. We don't.

We've seen enough to know that Farange is a bad player. And he's either willing or not, advancing the cause of Putin. So of course, I"m going to celebrate him getting punked. Sure, Farange might have nominally more power (he may probably enter Commons in the next election), but I certainly want a UK where his movement has been discredited with the majority of the population. And I think this fiasco reduces his actual power.

Who has my back... Merkel, Macron, Trudeau and the EU. That's basically it. Trump most certainly does NOT have our back. That's a demonstrable fact.

My country is a diverse USA that respects human rights and basic freedoms and opposes discrimination. And where white supremacy (or any other kind of supremacy) is not the power metric. We're not to that point yet on the supremacy, but we're getting close enough so that I certainly am going to root for the EU and oppose threats to it.

Nobody should have you back because gay sex ins't a constitutional nor a human tight. Your entire lens of existence is gay sex gay sex gay sex. The USA is the most anti White Supremacist Nation on the planet.

I think Trump agrees with your assertion that I have no rights in this Country and no standing other than to take whatever indignities that the supremacist culture decides for me.

Gee, I wonder why I don't 'just trust' nativists/nationalists like SFC and his ideological allies?

I rest my case.

------

Hmm, I trying to figure out what humiliation would be the best outcome for Farange and his anti-EU Brexiteers. Is it to have 60 Labourites vote for the 'Deal' and have Brexit be an utter joke?

Or

Do I just want a hard Brexit with Labour, the SNP, and the LibDems completely free of any involvement in the deal?

The same as every individual including heterosexuals. This is important to understand for you Tom. You are not special because you have gay homosexual sex. 100 years from now gay men holding hands and playing kiss face at the suburban cul de sac cookout, when everyone else is heterosexual couple with kids......it is still going to be the same. This what you want, not going to happen. Oh and BTW the immigrants to USA post 1965 are the most likely to be anti gay.

You know what, I'd rather take my chances with the post 1965 immigrants than with the nativists/nationalists.

Biggest lie ever told on this message board. None of the recent non Europeans created the most inclusive and best constitutional rights for all people. The reason these immigrants come here is because the USA is better, has more opportunity, less corrupt (not including the Obama Administration), etc. I don't know one person of German or Irish ancestry give a chit how dark the skin of a Fillipino or Indian or Bengali is? Or even a Nigerian? Thus destroying your white supremacy argument also. The USA is the open welcoming country on Earth and least of an ethnostate anywhere.

And Tom, still not invited to the cookout.

(11-16-2018 07:06 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 06:25 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 05:58 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Nobody on the anti-Putin/Trump side trusts anyone on the other to do anything but undercut us. You're either on our side or Putin/Orban's. And there is no freedom for anyone on the other side of the fence. We all know now that to protect our freedoms, our basic liberties, and even our safety/lives, we must ALL do everything we can to stop global nativism.

And even the friggin' EU, a notoriously passive group, has awoken to that reality.

-----

Heck Americans don't prefer American products. Why the heck would Brits? Your assertion that a grateful group of UKIP/BNP fans will immediately go buy a bunch of American products 'just because' is rather dubious.

Urban America subsidizes rural America, not the other way around.

The military argument is kind of oversold, especially in a world where I have more reason to fear 'some random male with a gun and a political agenda', than ISIS. Sure, we need a military. Especially to deploy against Russian expansionism. But no, I see no reason to be in Syria under current engagement rules and no reason to be in Afghanistan at all. Or Iraq. And no, I don't have to place extra value to military service, especially since I was barred from participating in it during my military ages, solely because of who I am. Being in the military is for many people, just a job - most of the military don't face military action. Sure, Vets deserve respect, but so do NON-Vets.

You didn't answer the question Mr. Rant & Whine. Would you die for the freedom of speech for the right as well as the left and that's assuming you would risk your life for the left? The social contract of a free nation is that we can disagree, practice our own understanding of morality within the law, read, speak and believe as we see fit, and agree to disagree, but when one's rights are threatened, the rights of all are threatened. If you won't honor that social contract then your views are alien to those of the nation. When you try to pass laws forcing a morality upon us that we don't accept, when you vote to increase public spending and force us to pay for it, when you try to legislate what we can read, say, or believe, then you are betraying the social contract that binds us together and you are the enemy of freedom. When duty calls if you don't answer you break the social contract. When you side with the political views of our military adversary then you are the traitor.

You claim to believe in many things but do you believe in defending the rights of all, or defending only your rights with the intention of forcing everyone else to acquiesce to your point of view? I get more than a strong whiff of your wanting to tell the rest of us how to live, what to believe, what we can or can't say, and giving us only your propaganda to read, and resenting anything else. That's what I get from you. And yet just like wanting the UK to stay in the EU to support those who are too inept or corrupt to support themselves your body politic on this board wants the rest of us to do the same for the inept and corrupt among us. You want to defile our sovereignty in the name of compassion when the goal is to further manipulate the vote for your agenda. If you can give me rational reasons to support irrational policies I'll listen. But so far I haven't heard one.

Either you will defend the rights of all within a diverse society or you will not? Which is it?

There's a big difference between accepting that there are awful people that will use basic freedoms to promote hatred of minorities and tolerating those behaviors.

Yea, if you think that America is a white Christian straight nation where those cultural norms should be supreme, then of course, we're going to condemn that. If you think we should align with a murderous thug who has actual death camps for Gay people in his country, then of course I'm going to say that's unacceptable.

There's a difference between accepting that people are going to say offensive things and allowing people to normalize that speech.

You know who hates freedom of speech? Orban does. Putin does. Duda does. That's why we oppose those that who would forward the views of these people and help them spread that ideology. And yes, I think Farange is one of them. You know who is on the side of freedom? Merkel. Macron. The EU.

"Dime con quien andas, y te dire quien eres"

Hah!!! The French don't allow the burkha. Europeans don't have nearly the freedom we have. You make a joke about the Muslim religion and you could go to jail. The EU is strongly opposed to individual freedom.

Its the Democrats who "normalize" the language of hate. Nobody in the Republican party talks about the whole of the people in the other party in that "deplorable" manner.

And let me add:
Donna Hylton, Madonna (blow up the White House), Louis Farrakhan, Hillary "deplorable" Clinton, Bill rapist Clinton, Linda Sansour, Keith Ellison, Brenda Snipes, Bob Menendez....
These are the people you walk with Tom.

(11-15-2018 09:36 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 09:08 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 08:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 07:19 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 06:30 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Nation / National Debt / % to GDP
Italy / 2.1 Trillion / 131% to GDP
Spain / 1.18 Trillion / 98.98% to GDP
Greece / 372.13 Billion / 178% to GDP
Portugal / 214.5 Billion / 127% to GDP

Italy's Debt is larger than that of Spain, Greece, or Portugal's put together.

But the real danger beyond Italy is France. 2.38 Trillion in Debt which is 97% of their GDP.

Tick tock, tick tock, the Debt bomb is much closer to detonating in EU than most folks realize. Germany wants and needs England to shoulder the burden. Great Britain is only wise to get out now and quite frankly Merkel would be wise to wash her hands of it as well.

USA debt to gdp 110% of GDP. But many still support Trump's disastrous giveaway to the oligarchs

Germany's GDP is almost 3.8 Trillion. 64% Debt to GDP ratio. I think they can afford to bailout a few countries. Remember, you don't need to pay it all off, just provide enough assistance to get things under control.

Netherlands 54% of GDP. Total GDP 826 Billion
Ireland 68% of GDP. Total 330 Billion
Finland 61% of GDP. Total 251 Billion
Austria 78% of GDP. Total 451 Billion
Belgium 103% of GDP (down from 150percent) Total 500 Billion

Here are the countries with GDP to debt ratios less than the USA

Germany, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, SPAIN, Austria, Finland, Ireland. And some of these are WELL below 100%.

Here are the troubling ones.

Portugal 125% of GDP - 250 billion economy
Italy 131% of GDP - 1.9 Trillion economy
Greece 178% of GDP - 200 billion economy.

The problem is that Greece's economy keeps shrinking which is turning into a never ending cycle of austerity as a recession then requires even more cutbacks. Greece's level of debt isn't new and it has been managed.

Italy is a mess and has been one for decades. They've had a 100% plus Debt to GDP ratio for at least the last 30 years. Italy's debt level is slightly higher than the 20 year average, but this is manageable.

Portugal is tiny. Its Debt to GDP has been flat for the last 10 years and has actually been falling.

--------

The EU is on a far more stable financial footing than the US is right now. There's not some radically increasing debt levels in the Eurozone. And its far lower than the USA.

I'm not, and haven't been, happy with the U.S. Debt since the 70's. You do understand that in the history of civilization the only time a Super Power's debt causes dire consequences is when another country equals or exceeds their military might. It just so happens the one that holds most of our debt is trying to equal and exceed our military power, China. Nobody calls a debt that they can't actually collect. It destroys their own balance sheet. Usually what happens is that the lender state eventually does trash a part of the value of the borrowing states currency. This makes raw materials more expensive for the debtor nation. It helps to destabilize the internal political environment which the lender nation will allow to play out. When they are convinced that military of the debtor nation can no longer outspend them on R&D, and that they have equal or bested their power, they have set up a variety of options with which to proceed. They can let the status quo continue to build the imbalance and permanently cripple the debtor. The can attack militarily if the other nation is resistant to economic pressures and is preparing for war, or they can totally destroy the value of their currency and render them moot as a power and destitute as a nation. The problem with the latter option is that the regime within the debtor nation will be highly motivated to attack. If they aren't they are subject to regime takeover from within.

The U.S. Tom is still the preeminent military power and it is technology that keeps our dollar afloat. Military power equals stability which equals trust among global traders. The dollar is safe because nobody dares to say it is not.

But I guarandamntee you that the moment it's not 110% debt to GDP will be wholly catastrophic and unacceptable.

France is trending up in debt not down. 97% debt to GDP for a non superpower is well within the red zone of high concern for the EU.

Add Trumps expectation that those states help furnish their own defense so that we don't run even deeper in the red and it is an untenable situation for many of them.

The states you have operating with significantly lower debt to GDP ratios would be among our poorer states and hardly large enough to help with Italy.

Italy's debt is only acceptable because nobody in the EU wants to throw down to collect it or to force Italy into policy changes because Italy's flat refusal to do so just further calls into question the EU's strength as an entity which undermines confidence in the Euro's value.

I didn't pick the 4 countries the thread did. But to suppose that the Greek bailout, which was highly divisive, is roughly equivalent to Italy is insane. I'm not stating that you made that claim, but the issue with France is that their debt is trending up. Portugal's is fluctuating. But if Greece created friction then Italy, which has no intention of reducing their debt, is a major stumbling block.

France has had a major resurgence of National Socialists in recent years. I'd say their debt, and the immigration problem, are only going to make these groups stronger. In Germany these kinds of political factions are much less talked about but very present.

In every debated post you toss out statistics that are frequently not relevant, or not current to make your point. Here you are insinuating that Trump bears the responsibility for the rise in our debt. That's hilarious. No president in office for 2 years has had much of an impact on a Federal Budget that is the Frankenstein's creation from the hands of many Houses, many Senates, and many Presidents before them. And much of the debt is tied to treaties and international trade agreements.

The Tax Break was just a drop in the bucket.

So my advice to you if you desire not to live in penury is to support your military and urge spending for military R&D because you are going to find out in spades what debt means when we are no longer feared by the world, our dollar will lose WRC status and the whole nation will reel under massive inflation.

And Tom, the damned EU exists because we want them as a buffer. But that was in the days of boots on the grounds, tanks on the line, and air bases within range. We don't need that buffer today the way we did in the 60's. So why should we keep providing them with what amounts to as much as 50% of a nation's budget or even as little as 20% of a nation's budget when our own debt is piling up. It's time the EU quit dragging on the teat of the United States's military welfare program.

And that is when having a debt to GDP ratio of 97% in France becomes a big issue.

First of all 66 percent of Franchmen voted against Le Pen in 2017. That's a lot of ground to make up. Remember, France, smartly, has a runoff.

Trump has little influence and no power with the EU.

They are no 'buffers' in today's world.

I fully expect the EU to start their own common military. Probably just a placeholder for now. If Trump gets reelected, they'll end NATO, kick the USA out of their bases, and start their own military. It would be formidable even at 2% of GDP quickly. In the next couple of years, the plan is to figure out how to ramp one up without US arms and training. They'll figure it out. They know that Trump is compromised by Putin and is working against them. Its a matter of self defense.

-----

You focus on WRC. Here are the requirements for a WRC

1) It must be convertible.
2) It must be FLOATING
3) It needs to be backed by a transparent Central Bank for which the world has confidence

China has none of those things. And number 3 is going to be hardest one.

-----
There isn't enough Gold to back up the Yuan.

Dude you are a total clown. Just the thought of reeks of Macron desperation.

There is nothing that terrifies the Europeans more than the US Army leaving. To say otherwise is either trolling or idiotic.

(11-16-2018 03:06 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  It’s a complicated subject and I won’t try to unpack all of the plots and subplots and details.

But I do just want to address the concept that a bad/unsuccessful Brexit (however you want to define that) will push the UK back into the EU.

First, I wouldn’t be too sure that the EU is even willing to take the UK back, unless the UK is *ALL*-*IN*. That means accepting the Euro as the currency and *Everything* that goes along with it. I really doubt that the UK will accept that. They get very touchy about the £.

Leave all that aside, though. If there is anything that could possibly unite basically all the various classes and factions of British society — from the Shetlands to Cornwall and pretty much everything in between — it is the sight of German bankers/politicians (and their proxies) throwing their weight around, making this process as bitter and painful and disruptive as they can. This process didn’t have to end in British hostility towards the EU. My impression is that the British are favorably disposed to the EU, more-or-less, but just don’t want the UK to be a part of it. This process seems destined to change that disposition among the British (not just the Ukippers) for a long, long time.

Americans would react that way. I think you are right about the British as well, but I'm not as certain.

(11-16-2018 10:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  Americans would react that way. I think you are right about the British as well, but I'm not as certain.

The combination of kow-towing to Germany/France and having the £ replaced by the € .... I honestly do not believe the British people are going to play along with that.

No question at all that the UK Government has mishandled this process has atrociously as possible. For the life of me, I’ll never understand why the UK did not even try to create something along the lines of “Flexcit” and/or the Norway Option, EEA/EFTA/etc.

At this point, I’m beginning to believe (for the first time) that there is going to be a “hard” Brexit. That will be very, very painful. The Tories will be punished severely at the next election, and deservedly so. But in that scenario, Brexit will be done and it won’t be un-done.

By the way, if it is a hard Brexit, the EU will establish a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

(11-16-2018 10:42 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 09:36 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 09:08 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 08:08 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(11-15-2018 07:19 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  USA debt to gdp 110% of GDP. But many still support Trump's disastrous giveaway to the oligarchs

Germany's GDP is almost 3.8 Trillion. 64% Debt to GDP ratio. I think they can afford to bailout a few countries. Remember, you don't need to pay it all off, just provide enough assistance to get things under control.

Netherlands 54% of GDP. Total GDP 826 Billion
Ireland 68% of GDP. Total 330 Billion
Finland 61% of GDP. Total 251 Billion
Austria 78% of GDP. Total 451 Billion
Belgium 103% of GDP (down from 150percent) Total 500 Billion

Here are the countries with GDP to debt ratios less than the USA

Germany, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, SPAIN, Austria, Finland, Ireland. And some of these are WELL below 100%.

Here are the troubling ones.

Portugal 125% of GDP - 250 billion economy
Italy 131% of GDP - 1.9 Trillion economy
Greece 178% of GDP - 200 billion economy.

The problem is that Greece's economy keeps shrinking which is turning into a never ending cycle of austerity as a recession then requires even more cutbacks. Greece's level of debt isn't new and it has been managed.

Italy is a mess and has been one for decades. They've had a 100% plus Debt to GDP ratio for at least the last 30 years. Italy's debt level is slightly higher than the 20 year average, but this is manageable.

Portugal is tiny. Its Debt to GDP has been flat for the last 10 years and has actually been falling.

--------

The EU is on a far more stable financial footing than the US is right now. There's not some radically increasing debt levels in the Eurozone. And its far lower than the USA.

I'm not, and haven't been, happy with the U.S. Debt since the 70's. You do understand that in the history of civilization the only time a Super Power's debt causes dire consequences is when another country equals or exceeds their military might. It just so happens the one that holds most of our debt is trying to equal and exceed our military power, China. Nobody calls a debt that they can't actually collect. It destroys their own balance sheet. Usually what happens is that the lender state eventually does trash a part of the value of the borrowing states currency. This makes raw materials more expensive for the debtor nation. It helps to destabilize the internal political environment which the lender nation will allow to play out. When they are convinced that military of the debtor nation can no longer outspend them on R&D, and that they have equal or bested their power, they have set up a variety of options with which to proceed. They can let the status quo continue to build the imbalance and permanently cripple the debtor. The can attack militarily if the other nation is resistant to economic pressures and is preparing for war, or they can totally destroy the value of their currency and render them moot as a power and destitute as a nation. The problem with the latter option is that the regime within the debtor nation will be highly motivated to attack. If they aren't they are subject to regime takeover from within.

The U.S. Tom is still the preeminent military power and it is technology that keeps our dollar afloat. Military power equals stability which equals trust among global traders. The dollar is safe because nobody dares to say it is not.

But I guarandamntee you that the moment it's not 110% debt to GDP will be wholly catastrophic and unacceptable.

France is trending up in debt not down. 97% debt to GDP for a non superpower is well within the red zone of high concern for the EU.

Add Trumps expectation that those states help furnish their own defense so that we don't run even deeper in the red and it is an untenable situation for many of them.

The states you have operating with significantly lower debt to GDP ratios would be among our poorer states and hardly large enough to help with Italy.

Italy's debt is only acceptable because nobody in the EU wants to throw down to collect it or to force Italy into policy changes because Italy's flat refusal to do so just further calls into question the EU's strength as an entity which undermines confidence in the Euro's value.

I didn't pick the 4 countries the thread did. But to suppose that the Greek bailout, which was highly divisive, is roughly equivalent to Italy is insane. I'm not stating that you made that claim, but the issue with France is that their debt is trending up. Portugal's is fluctuating. But if Greece created friction then Italy, which has no intention of reducing their debt, is a major stumbling block.

France has had a major resurgence of National Socialists in recent years. I'd say their debt, and the immigration problem, are only going to make these groups stronger. In Germany these kinds of political factions are much less talked about but very present.

In every debated post you toss out statistics that are frequently not relevant, or not current to make your point. Here you are insinuating that Trump bears the responsibility for the rise in our debt. That's hilarious. No president in office for 2 years has had much of an impact on a Federal Budget that is the Frankenstein's creation from the hands of many Houses, many Senates, and many Presidents before them. And much of the debt is tied to treaties and international trade agreements.

The Tax Break was just a drop in the bucket.

So my advice to you if you desire not to live in penury is to support your military and urge spending for military R&D because you are going to find out in spades what debt means when we are no longer feared by the world, our dollar will lose WRC status and the whole nation will reel under massive inflation.

And Tom, the damned EU exists because we want them as a buffer. But that was in the days of boots on the grounds, tanks on the line, and air bases within range. We don't need that buffer today the way we did in the 60's. So why should we keep providing them with what amounts to as much as 50% of a nation's budget or even as little as 20% of a nation's budget when our own debt is piling up. It's time the EU quit dragging on the teat of the United States's military welfare program.

And that is when having a debt to GDP ratio of 97% in France becomes a big issue.

First of all 66 percent of Franchmen voted against Le Pen in 2017. That's a lot of ground to make up. Remember, France, smartly, has a runoff.

Trump has little influence and no power with the EU.

They are no 'buffers' in today's world.

I fully expect the EU to start their own common military. Probably just a placeholder for now. If Trump gets reelected, they'll end NATO, kick the USA out of their bases, and start their own military. It would be formidable even at 2% of GDP quickly. In the next couple of years, the plan is to figure out how to ramp one up without US arms and training. They'll figure it out. They know that Trump is compromised by Putin and is working against them. Its a matter of self defense.

-----

You focus on WRC. Here are the requirements for a WRC

1) It must be convertible.
2) It must be FLOATING
3) It needs to be backed by a transparent Central Bank for which the world has confidence

China has none of those things. And number 3 is going to be hardest one.

-----
There isn't enough Gold to back up the Yuan.

Dude you are a total clown. Just the thought of reeks of Macron desperation.

There is nothing that terrifies the Europeans more than the US Army leaving. To say otherwise is either trolling or idiotic.

With Trump as C-in-C, the US Army has effectively left. Europe is making its own contingency plans.

Gay camps...man this guy has lost it. LOL

He's a very normal Democrat.

(11-17-2018 07:54 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 10:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  Americans would react that way. I think you are right about the British as well, but I'm not as certain.

The combination of kow-towing to Germany/France and having the £ replaced by the € .... I honestly do not believe the British people are going to play along with that.

No question at all that the UK Government has mishandled this process has atrociously as possible. For the life of me, I’ll never understand why the UK did not even try to create something along the lines of “Flexcit” and/or the Norway Option, EEA/EFTA/etc.

At this point, I’m beginning to believe (for the first time) that there is going to be a “hard” Brexit. That will be very, very painful. The Tories will be punished severely at the next election, and deservedly so. But in that scenario, Brexit will be done and it won’t be un-done.

By the way, if it is a hard Brexit, the EU will establish a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Ireland would throw a hissy fit about that. This is an Irish priority more than British. The Brits just want to defuse the Catholic/Protestant tension.

(11-17-2018 07:54 AM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(11-16-2018 10:43 PM)bullet Wrote:  Americans would react that way. I think you are right about the British as well, but I'm not as certain.

The combination of kow-towing to Germany/France and having the £ replaced by the € .... I honestly do not believe the British people are going to play along with that.

No question at all that the UK Government has mishandled this process has atrociously as possible. For the life of me, I’ll never understand why the UK did not even try to create something along the lines of “Flexcit” and/or the Norway Option, EEA/EFTA/etc.

At this point, I’m beginning to believe (for the first time) that there is going to be a “hard” Brexit. That will be very, very painful. The Tories will be punished severely at the next election, and deservedly so. But in that scenario, Brexit will be done and it won’t be un-done.

By the way, if it is a hard Brexit, the EU will establish a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Norway had to agree to comply with EU regulatory, taxation, and migration norms in order to be in the Common Market and Schengen. The UK is being offered basically the same deal as Norway.

That will go over like a lead balloon in Northern Ireland. And even worse, will result in a revival of the fortunes of the SNP as Scotland fears that nativist Brits will simply cancel their agreements too.

----

Here's how Brexit could still be defeated.

1) May's deal fails
2) May gets tossed from 10 Downing
3) A no-confidence vote is proposed and fails. The Tories put up a hard Brexit PM
4) The Tories split into factions. Another no-confidence vote is proposed and passes. The 14 day period goes into effect.

We are probably into mid December at the earliest at this point

5) Early January. Less than 3 months till the deadline - unable to get a majority of MP's to sign on to a coalition, a snap election is called in the quickest timeframe - six weeks. Elections are scheduled for February 20th or so, around 5 weeks prior to the deadline.

6) During the chaos, the hard Brexit PM is forced to go 'hat in hand' to Brussels to plead for more time. Depending upon the polls, the EU might concede a month or two or decide to stick to the agreement and play hard ball. My guess is that the EU will punt, saying...lets wait until we know who the next government is before negotiating.

7) Elections are held. Farange enters Parliament, but the Brexit group loses to a coalition of ex-Tories, LibDems, Labourites, and the SNP. They immediately go to Brussels and plead for a three month extension, which the EU grants.

8) Another vote on Brexit is held in April. Brexit fails by 10 percent or more. The process ends there. The UK comes back into Brussels. The only concession the EU will make is to allow them to retain the Pound.

----

But basically that's the only scenario where some form of Brexit doesn't happen.

Soft Brexit only happens if the UK business community convinces enough Labourites and Tories to support it. I think May needs 60 plus Labourites to vote for it. The problem is that the Labourites that might be open to doing so are from precisely the areas where the people are furious about the loss of freedom of movement.

Hard Brexit remains the most likely option, for now. This will cause all kinds of problems for the UK. It WILL cause significant financial disruption to UK industries and the financial sector and that WILL impact the lives of ordinary Britons. The Scots will continue to be livid over Brexit in general and will have more issues with any breaking of agreement with NI, fearing the precedent. Northern Ireland will be VERY restive, and it will increase calls for reunification - dramatically. For the first time, you'll find some non-Catholic Northern Irish included in the 'lets reunite' camp. The hard border will be DEEPLY unpopular in Derry. There will be a recession, and it probably will be pretty bad. And that's even if there are no major supply problems, such as groceries/fuel supply problems, etc. Basically, every bad thing that the Remain campaigners said would happen, and that Leave said wouldn't will come to fruition in spades. There's no guarantee that the pressure wont build to the point where the UK applies to rejoin the EU within 2 years though.

-----

Quite frankly, the smart move for Farange and his crew is to quietly allow Soft Brexit to occur then work to find a time when they can break out of the Soft Brexit accords.

(11-17-2018 12:35 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Gay camps...man this guy has lost it. LOL

He's a very normal Democrat.

Thing is, Tom isn't as bad as a lot of them. In Georgia I'm seeing all kinds of intelligent people ranting about Abrams having the election stolen from her. Including people I know fairly well (I live in a very liberal area). A huge portion of the population is just a tiny step from mental illness.

(11-17-2018 12:35 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Gay camps...man this guy has lost it. LOL

He's a very normal Democrat.

Dude you can't gaslight any of us anymore. But you are free to try.

(11-17-2018 12:44 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(11-17-2018 12:35 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Gay camps...man this guy has lost it. LOL

He's a very normal Democrat.

Thing is, Tom isn't as bad as a lot of them. In Georgia I'm seeing all kinds of intelligent people ranting about Abrams having the election stolen from her. Including people I know fairly well (I live in a very liberal area). A huge portion of the population is just a tiny step from mental illness.

The election wasn't stolen outright. There probably wasn't a level playing field, but had the Dems gotten a few more people out to vote, there would have been a runoff. If Georgia was stealing elections, Handel wouldn't have lost.

There's just too much NE/South Georgia and not enough metro Atlanta/urban Columbus/Macon/Augusta/Savannah.

The Dems are going to complain for a while. But hopefully, they'll work on registering more new voters, winning the battle for transplants, and calibrating their GOTV to turn Georgia blue when it really counts....2020. I think they need to find 378k more Dem voters to win. Here's my analysis of 2020 in Georgia. https://csnbbs.com/thread-863362.html Sure grieve over a loss, but 2020 is the prize. Work on that, not carping about an election that wasn't as bad as the Dems thought in Georgia.

By, the way, were these threads moved?

---

I'm fine with the GOP calling your opponents mentally ill. We will just be out there out working you guys like CRAZY.

(11-17-2018 12:08 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  With Trump as C-in-C, the US Army has effectively left. Europe is making its own contingency plans.

Good luck to them.

Germany's military is so underfunded that the majority of their fighter jets aren't combat ready, few operational submarines, had to buy second hand P-3C ASW aircraft from the Dutch that were so old they have to be completely overhauled before they can enter service, and just fielded a frigate that cannot operate a manned aircraft which puts limitations on the types of operations it can handle.

The German Army isn't much better. It's improved from the point where it had to use broomsticks painted black in place of machine guns in order to participate in a NATO exercise. They have 21,000 vacant officer spots causing critical leadership gaps. That is something that cannot be remedied in a hasty manner...it takes years to properly train leaders. Earlier this year when they were tasked to lead the main task force defending Europe against Russia they could only field nine of the required forty four tanks and three of a promised fourteen armored personnel carriers.

It will take several decades before Europe is capable of defending itself.

(11-17-2018 01:36 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(11-17-2018 12:08 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  With Trump as C-in-C, the US Army has effectively left. Europe is making its own contingency plans.

Good luck to them.

Germany's military is so underfunded that the majority of their fighter jets aren't combat ready, few operational submarines, had to buy second hand P-3C ASW aircraft from the Dutch that were so old they have to be completely overhauled before they can enter service, and just fielded a frigate that cannot operate a manned aircraft which puts limitations on the types of operations it can handle.

The German Army isn't much better. It's improved from the point where it had to use broomsticks painted black in place of machine guns in order to participate in a NATO exercise. They have 21,000 vacant officer spots causing critical leadership gaps. That is something that cannot be remedied in a hasty manner...it takes years to properly train leaders. Earlier this year when they were tasked to lead the main task force defending Europe against Russia they could only field nine of the required forty four tanks and three of a promised fourteen armored personnel carriers.

It will take several decades before Europe is capable of defending itself.

It will take a few years. But probably less than you think. Remember, all they have to get is a credible stopping force against Russia for the time being. EU's economy is 15 times that of Russia. There's also a HUGE difference between invading a country, attacking it, and HOLDING it in the face of a non-willing populace. Russia doesn't have the forces to do so.

How do you think France's military stacks up against Russia's? What about France, plus Sweden, plus Norway, plus the other EU countries as of TODAY.