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Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
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Post: #21
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
As for a European army, they need a two stage EU, one that is actually a federation like the US was at first, and one that is an extended trade deal like the EU now. Otherwise, that army does become a problem as GTS says.

So France, Germany, the Benelux are a federation. Others gradually join them. They do really need Poland to make it work, someone to balance the French and Germans so it doesn't split whenever those two disagree. Have every officer be fluent in 2 of 3 languages-French/ German/Polish. One Latin, one Germanic, one Slavic. Everybody but the Finns, Hungarians, Balts and Greeks are in one of those language families. And there really aren't very many from those 6 counties combined. And there's a good chance the Balts and Hungarians already speak Russian.
11-15-2018 03:55 PM
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RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 03:47 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:35 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  They don't have deficits anywhere near as bad as ours. An EU military is a good thing. Bad for US defense contractors' bottom line, but a good thing overall.

Trump hasn't convinced the EU to form their own military out of demanding them to pay their 'fair share' but by his open support of people who want to harm the cause of freedom and democracy.

Either way, it will be nice to have another major military that can step into conflicts.


This post demonstrates a catastrophic lack of understanding of European geopolitics followed closely by a catastrophic lack of understanding of world history.

Let's cut through all this bullsh*t and get directly to the bottom line: an EU military is about forcing people to stay in as much as it is about any hypothetical checking of power from abroad. If the EU does create a military there will be bloodshed again in continental Europe. Mark. My. Words.

People aren't being forced to remain....they're being lied to in order to be induced to leave. I don't think that if Hungary or Poland decided to say "we're leaving" that the EU would do anything but say 'good riddance'. What the nativists want is all the benefits of globalized first world economy without any of the things that make those economies possible.

The impact of Trump's bullying of the EU over funding and non-support for nativism/Putin's agenda did not result in EU compliance with Trumps agenda, but rather the creation of a military framework where the USA can only ask for their help, not demand it by virtue of control via NATO.

The EU feels it needs its own option to defend itself from Russia, because they, rightly, feel that Trump wouldn't bother to honor his commitment under the Atlantic Charter.

----

The next war, which sadly will be not long in coming, is the proximate result of the end of a worldwide system of human rights and consensus. When Putin can set off dirty bombs in British towns with impunity, when Saudi Arabia can kill journalists with impunity, when China can lock up a Million people in camps with impunity, when Russia can invade Georgia and Ukraine with impunity, then instead of resolving differences within a peaceful framework, the only thing to do to a threat.....is to take it down.

At least now, the forces of freedom are finally, FINALLY, stopping to ignore the treat of authoritarianism.

What? Are you 29? Look up "fall of the Berlin Wall?"
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 03:57 PM by bullet.)
11-15-2018 03:56 PM
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Post: #23
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 03:55 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:46 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:11 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If I'm Angela Merkel, I'd just respond with the terms of the Brexit deal. LOL.

Please. I could think of no better campaign commercial for Farage to air.

I'm fine with him doing it. Farange just got absolutely punked by Merkel, the EU, Macron, and even the Tories. And many of the people voting for Brexit did so with the understanding that this would be orderly and that the UK would be able to keep much of its trade links with the EU in the process. The DUP did so thinking that they'd be able to prevent a border between the 6 counties and Great Britian and institute one between NI and the Republic of Ireland. Many voted for it because they though they'd get more money for the National Health Service. None of that is happening. I don't think that Hard Brexit is nearly as possible as the Brexit attempted to be sold to the UK. Hard Core Brexiteers, are probably around 20-25 of the electorate. Soft Core Brexiteers are 10-15 percent. And everyone else, just wants to undo it.

Basically, the EU has told the Brexiteers....Go for it...do whatever you think you can do. We're going to play hardball.

I suspect that Farange might be able to find some constituency that might put him into parliament (Boston, perhaps?) but, no, UKIP isn't going to have any more control than they do now. Because there isn't a party in the UK that will have anything to do with them.

The EU is trying to make it difficult. It doesn't have to be so difficult if there is good faith. All the more reason to leave.

Of course the EU isn't going to help UK nativists destroy their union. Duh. No one in the Putin/Orban/Dudej/Pegida/LePen/UKIP/BNP framework has ever acted in good faith.

Now, you're actually going to see a much more active EU dealing with the nativists.

Britain leaving doesn't destroy their union.

Brussels and Merkel, are, however, doing a great deal to destroy the EU.
11-15-2018 03:58 PM
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Post: #24
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 03:47 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  People aren't being forced to remain....they're being lied to in order to be induced to leave. I don't think that if Hungary or Poland decided to say "we're leaving" that the EU would do anything but say 'good riddance'. What the nativists want is all the benefits of globalized first world economy without any of the things that make those economies possible.

The impact of Trump's bullying of the EU over funding and non-support for nativism/Putin's agenda did not result in EU compliance with Trumps agenda, but rather the creation of a military framework where the USA can only ask for their help, not demand it by virtue of control via NATO.

The EU feels it needs its own option to defend itself from Russia, because they, rightly, feel that Trump wouldn't bother to honor his commitment under the Atlantic Charter.

----

The next war, which sadly will be not long in coming, is the proximate result of the end of a worldwide system of human rights and consensus. When Putin can set off dirty bombs in British towns with impunity, when Saudi Arabia can kill journalists with impunity, when China can lock up a Million people in camps with impunity, when Russia can invade Georgia and Ukraine with impunity, then instead of resolving differences within a peaceful framework, the only thing to do to a threat.....is to take it down.

At least now, the forces of freedom are finally, FINALLY, stopping to ignore the treat of authoritarianism.


The EU has already told the Greeks they weren't allowed to have an election until they had a budget the EU liked first. That's tantamount to political warfare. The Greeks ultimately caved. But now the Italians are next up for the EU bankruptcy sweepstakes (followed by Portugal and Spain). And when the EU told the Italians their budget was unacceptable ... the Italians resubmitted the same budget. And in Italy the "this is our budget, we don't care" line is deeply bipartisan. Without a means to project force (read: a military) the EU has no way to force Italy to comply with budget demands. So either you continue to crush the Euro as a currency .... or you send in the military to crush the Italian government. One ends in the economic dissolution of the EU. The other ends in bloodshed and the eventual political dissolution of the EU. Pick one. Those are your only two options. The Germans don't have enough money -- literally -- to bail out the combined garbage balance sheets of Italy and Greece ... let alone all four of the imploding PIGS.
11-15-2018 04:00 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 03:35 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:32 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  They don't have deficits anywhere near as bad as ours. An EU military is a good thing. Bad for US defense contractors' bottom line, but a good thing overall.

Trump hasn't convinced the EU to form their own military out of demanding them to pay their 'fair share' but by his open support of people who want to harm the cause of freedom and democracy.

Either way, it will be nice to have another major military that can step into conflicts.


This post demonstrates a catastrophic lack of understanding of European geopolitics followed closely by a catastrophic lack of understanding of world history.

Let's cut through all this bullsh*t and get directly to the bottom line: an EU military is about forcing people to stay in as much as it is about any hypothetical checking of power from abroad. If the EU does create a military there will be bloodshed again in continental Europe. Mark. My. Words.

The East German Wall
Communist Russia
Communist China
North Korea
11-15-2018 04:06 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 03:50 PM)bullet Wrote:  The EU is trying to bully Britain.

The EU is basically a trade federation. They've thrown more and more into it, but its basically a European NAFTA. How hard was it to end NAFTA?

The reasons for leaving are more clear than ever. I imagine most of the leave people are more determined than ever to leave.

The EU is simply doing what they should be doing to protect their union. Get out of the nativist/nationalist bubble. People might not like the EU Parliament, much like people don't like Congress, but they don't want to destroy it. They like Schengen. They like freedom of movement. They, at least in the Western part of the EU, don't like autocracy. Europeans largely operate on consensus.

Sure, the hard core Brexiteers in the UKIP, the BNP, and on the far right of the Tories (along with a few far LEFT people) want to destroy the system in some fit of anarchy, but that's not why the slim majority of people in the UK who voted for Brexit voted for it.

And the remain campaign warned about this EXACT sceanario....that the EU wasn't going to help the UK's right wing destroy the EU. Brexit would even be more harsh than the current deal if it goes to a hard Brexit. The UK let them keep freedom of movement.

------

And for those who think that there will be some groundswell of support for leaving the EU on the continent, the problem is this...

Many of these countries are on the Euro and have their entire financial systems linked up via the ECB. They can't leave easily. And even for the few countries that are in the EU that don't have the Euro as their currency - outside of Britian, they have Central Banks that are completely dependent upon the ECB.

But don't feel too bad for them, they got billions and billions in Western European money. They got all the subsidies and investment. They got the freedom of movement. None of that came without strings. Hungary is finding that out now. And Poland is about to.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 04:10 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
11-15-2018 04:08 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 04:00 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:47 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  People aren't being forced to remain....they're being lied to in order to be induced to leave. I don't think that if Hungary or Poland decided to say "we're leaving" that the EU would do anything but say 'good riddance'. What the nativists want is all the benefits of globalized first world economy without any of the things that make those economies possible.

The impact of Trump's bullying of the EU over funding and non-support for nativism/Putin's agenda did not result in EU compliance with Trumps agenda, but rather the creation of a military framework where the USA can only ask for their help, not demand it by virtue of control via NATO.

The EU feels it needs its own option to defend itself from Russia, because they, rightly, feel that Trump wouldn't bother to honor his commitment under the Atlantic Charter.

----

The next war, which sadly will be not long in coming, is the proximate result of the end of a worldwide system of human rights and consensus. When Putin can set off dirty bombs in British towns with impunity, when Saudi Arabia can kill journalists with impunity, when China can lock up a Million people in camps with impunity, when Russia can invade Georgia and Ukraine with impunity, then instead of resolving differences within a peaceful framework, the only thing to do to a threat.....is to take it down.

At least now, the forces of freedom are finally, FINALLY, stopping to ignore the treat of authoritarianism.


The EU has already told the Greeks they weren't allowed to have an election until they had a budget the EU liked first. That's tantamount to political warfare. The Greeks ultimately caved. But now the Italians are next up for the EU bankruptcy sweepstakes (followed by Portugal and Spain). And when the EU told the Italians their budget was unacceptable ... the Italians resubmitted the same budget. And in Italy the "this is our budget, we don't care" line is deeply bipartisan. Without a means to project force (read: a military) the EU has no way to force Italy to comply with budget demands. So either you continue to crush the Euro as a currency .... or you send in the military to crush the Italian government. One ends in the economic dissolution of the EU. The other ends in bloodshed and the eventual political dissolution of the EU. Pick one. Those are your only two options. The Germans don't have enough money -- literally -- to bail out the combined garbage balance sheets of Italy and Greece ... let alone all four of the imploding PIGS.

The EU told Greece, do this or we won't bail you out and we will throw you out of the ECB and Euro framework. Greece could have said 'okay', but they chose not to. There was no force involved. The EU isn't going to pay to subsidize regimes that don't comply with their rules.

The EU isn't going to send in troops to compel Italy to remain. They'll simply say..."fine, leave if you'd like, but we're not going to help you out if you leave". And why the hell should they?

The EU core basically is Germany, France, and the Benelux. That's where most of the donor funds are coming from. Spain and Portugal aren't going to rise up against the EU. There's very little support for that in Iberia.

Greece would have had an even worse economic collapse had they pulled out of the EU. They aren't a huge economy btw.

Italy is bigger, but its also a bigger problem. Italy would leave the EU if they felt that it would completely destroy their economy. It would, so they stay.

Spain's economy is actually doing okay right now, as is Portugals. Unlike in 2007, Ireland seems to be doing well.

Quite frankly, I think a better solution is to reform the EU as a more centralized grouping and invite Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Malta, Austria (yes they have an awful government, but they're in compliance) the Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg to be charter members. Then invite the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Latvia, and Croatia to apply (they'd get in). Anyone else is going to have show a real commitment to EU values, economic discipline, and human rights norms to get in. No 1 country veto anymore either. No more rotating Presidency.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 04:26 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
11-15-2018 04:24 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
The European Union .... a common market designed to prevent German dominance and war. Which is now a German run political system moving industrial base out of the periphery of Europe and into Germany. And where Germany calls the central banking shots. And where Germany controls immigration. And where they're now talking about raising an army. And where Germany can approve the budgets of other nations. And where Germany can halt elections in other nations. And where even its own fans like Tom above openly state the Germans get to call the shots because they pay the bills. What could possibly go wrong?
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 04:33 PM by georgia_tech_swagger.)
11-15-2018 04:32 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 04:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  The European Union .... a common market designed to prevent German dominance and war. Which is now a German run political system moving industrial base out of the periphery of Europe and into Germany. And where Germany calls the central banking shots. And where Germany controls immigration. And where they're now talking about raising an army. And where Germany can approve the budgets of other nations. And where Germany can halt elections in other nations. And where even its own fans like Tom above openly state the Germans get to call the shots because they pay the bills. What could possibly go wrong?

We have two examples of what could go wrong from the 20th century.

I just hope this time we don't waste millions of American lives to help these countries who once again put themselves in a situation to be dominated by Germany.
11-15-2018 04:44 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
Would be kind of funny seeing German officers commanding Polish troops on Polish soil. Well actually that wouldn't be funny.
11-15-2018 04:57 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 04:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  The European Union .... a common market designed to prevent German dominance and war. Which is now a German run political system moving industrial base out of the periphery of Europe and into Germany. And where Germany calls the central banking shots. And where Germany controls immigration. And where they're now talking about raising an army. And where Germany can approve the budgets of other nations. And where Germany can halt elections in other nations. And where even its own fans like Tom above openly state the Germans get to call the shots because they pay the bills. What could possibly go wrong?

Wait a sec... I missed that part.

So he definitely wouldn't begrudge the U.S. of calling the shots in NATO or the UN because, in both cases, the US pays the bills.
11-15-2018 05:14 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 04:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  The European Union .... a common market designed to prevent German dominance and war. Which is now a German run political system moving industrial base out of the periphery of Europe and into Germany. And where Germany calls the central banking shots. And where Germany controls immigration. And where they're now talking about raising an army. And where Germany can approve the budgets of other nations. And where Germany can halt elections in other nations. And where even its own fans like Tom above openly state the Germans get to call the shots because they pay the bills. What could possibly go wrong?

I know that Hungary doesn't have free or fair elections. I know that Poland doesn't respect human rights norms and is banning criticism.

But I tried to google "EU blocks Greek elections" and didn't come up with anything. Just a bunch of Articles about Macedonia from Russian linked websites and a Stopfake article rebutting the Russian articles about Macedonia. Can you please provide a link...At least I tried to look it up.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 05:27 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
11-15-2018 05:22 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 05:22 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I know that Hungary doesn't have free or fair elections. I know that Poland doesn't respect human rights norms and is banning criticism.

But I tried to google "EU blocks Greek elections" and didn't come up with anything. Just a bunch of Articles about Macedonia from Russian linked websites and a Stopfake article rebutting the Russian articles about Macedonia. Can you please provide a link...At least I tried to look it up.




Skip to 2:00 in.
11-15-2018 05:27 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 05:14 PM)umbluegray Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 04:32 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  The European Union .... a common market designed to prevent German dominance and war. Which is now a German run political system moving industrial base out of the periphery of Europe and into Germany. And where Germany calls the central banking shots. And where Germany controls immigration. And where they're now talking about raising an army. And where Germany can approve the budgets of other nations. And where Germany can halt elections in other nations. And where even its own fans like Tom above openly state the Germans get to call the shots because they pay the bills. What could possibly go wrong?

Wait a sec... I missed that part.

So he definitely wouldn't begrudge the U.S. of calling the shots in NATO or the UN because, in both cases, the US pays the bills.

The US DOES call the shots within NATO. At least they have up till now. And remember, European integration into NATO helps the USA maintain its armaments industries.

That will be ending.

---

No one pays attention to the UN. Its a worthless organization other than in peacekeeping. If you'd like to defund the 1.2 billion we send to the UN, go right ahead. But if we do, then we're not going to be able to have a veto power on an organization that we use to pay other countries to do peacekeeping missions that might be in our interests. We'll probably have to spend the entire peacekeeping budget, and more, if we left.. Its also a lot CHEAPER to pay the UN to hire Nigeria's Army out to police after a civil war in Liberia than it would be to send in the Marines.

Having the UN go into a place where its in our interest to stop a conflict, and to NOT have US troops in harms way, and to get the result we want....IS useful. So is having a UN Veto.

The US leaves the UN, there will be another organization that will have Europe, Much of Asia, Canada, Oceania, Africa, and Latin America in it. All we will accomplish is to give up our veto. Sucks to be Israel in that case, because that new organization is going to pass BDS rules so fast it will make your head spin.

Basically, the US spends 440 million per year on the UN outside of peacekeeping. Or, in other words, the cost of Trump's stunt of sending troops to the borders for a political purpose (they can't do anything) plus his golf bill for the last 2 years. In return, we get a big fat veto.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 05:45 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
11-15-2018 05:32 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 05:27 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 05:22 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  I know that Hungary doesn't have free or fair elections. I know that Poland doesn't respect human rights norms and is banning criticism.

But I tried to google "EU blocks Greek elections" and didn't come up with anything. Just a bunch of Articles about Macedonia from Russian linked websites and a Stopfake article rebutting the Russian articles about Macedonia. Can you please provide a link...At least I tried to look it up.




Skip to 2:00 in.

Still no idea what Farange is talking about. But all he said was that the EU said it would be 'inappropriate' to hold an election right now. No idea if its true or not, or who said it if it is, but there's a BIG difference between saying "not sure this is a good idea right now" and "we are banning you from doing it".

A Farange speech in Brussels isn't going to be convincing evidence for me of anything.

I then googled "Greek election inappropriate" and couldn't find anything. If Farange is on to something, I can't find it.
11-15-2018 05:42 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 03:55 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:46 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:27 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:11 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:00 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  If I'm Angela Merkel, I'd just respond with the terms of the Brexit deal. LOL.

Please. I could think of no better campaign commercial for Farage to air.

I'm fine with him doing it. Farange just got absolutely punked by Merkel, the EU, Macron, and even the Tories. And many of the people voting for Brexit did so with the understanding that this would be orderly and that the UK would be able to keep much of its trade links with the EU in the process. The DUP did so thinking that they'd be able to prevent a border between the 6 counties and Great Britian and institute one between NI and the Republic of Ireland. Many voted for it because they though they'd get more money for the National Health Service. None of that is happening. I don't think that Hard Brexit is nearly as possible as the Brexit attempted to be sold to the UK. Hard Core Brexiteers, are probably around 20-25 of the electorate. Soft Core Brexiteers are 10-15 percent. And everyone else, just wants to undo it.

Basically, the EU has told the Brexiteers....Go for it...do whatever you think you can do. We're going to play hardball.

I suspect that Farange might be able to find some constituency that might put him into parliament (Boston, perhaps?) but, no, UKIP isn't going to have any more control than they do now. Because there isn't a party in the UK that will have anything to do with them.

The EU is trying to make it difficult. It doesn't have to be so difficult if there is good faith. All the more reason to leave.

Of course the EU isn't going to help UK nativists destroy their union. Duh. No one in the Putin/Orban/Dudej/Pegida/LePen/UKIP/BNP framework has ever acted in good faith.

Now, you're actually going to see a much more active EU dealing with the nativists. The EU is no longer willing to allow people bent on destroying it to take advantage of its benefits.

Welfare state Greece damaged their union. Insolvent Italy will end it. What the Germans want is for UK to take a full share of that. What they fear is a Great Britain in a better economic standing that the rest of the EU will be in when the Italian debt finally has to be handled.
11-15-2018 06:06 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 04:00 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:47 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  People aren't being forced to remain....they're being lied to in order to be induced to leave. I don't think that if Hungary or Poland decided to say "we're leaving" that the EU would do anything but say 'good riddance'. What the nativists want is all the benefits of globalized first world economy without any of the things that make those economies possible.

The impact of Trump's bullying of the EU over funding and non-support for nativism/Putin's agenda did not result in EU compliance with Trumps agenda, but rather the creation of a military framework where the USA can only ask for their help, not demand it by virtue of control via NATO.

The EU feels it needs its own option to defend itself from Russia, because they, rightly, feel that Trump wouldn't bother to honor his commitment under the Atlantic Charter.

----

The next war, which sadly will be not long in coming, is the proximate result of the end of a worldwide system of human rights and consensus. When Putin can set off dirty bombs in British towns with impunity, when Saudi Arabia can kill journalists with impunity, when China can lock up a Million people in camps with impunity, when Russia can invade Georgia and Ukraine with impunity, then instead of resolving differences within a peaceful framework, the only thing to do to a threat.....is to take it down.

At least now, the forces of freedom are finally, FINALLY, stopping to ignore the treat of authoritarianism.


The EU has already told the Greeks they weren't allowed to have an election until they had a budget the EU liked first. That's tantamount to political warfare. The Greeks ultimately caved. But now the Italians are next up for the EU bankruptcy sweepstakes (followed by Portugal and Spain). And when the EU told the Italians their budget was unacceptable ... the Italians resubmitted the same budget. And in Italy the "this is our budget, we don't care" line is deeply bipartisan. Without a means to project force (read: a military) the EU has no way to force Italy to comply with budget demands. So either you continue to crush the Euro as a currency .... or you send in the military to crush the Italian government. One ends in the economic dissolution of the EU. The other ends in bloodshed and the eventual political dissolution of the EU. Pick one. Those are your only two options. The Germans don't have enough money -- literally -- to bail out the combined garbage balance sheets of Italy and Greece ... let alone all four of the imploding PIGS.

Let's put this in a slightly better perspective. The EU doesn't have enough money to handle Italy's debt and come out of it able to function. Spain and Portugal aren't even close to being the problem that Italy is. Greece was a firecracker. Italy is a Daisy Cutter.
11-15-2018 06:11 PM
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georgia_tech_swagger Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 05:42 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Still no idea what Farange is talking about. But all he said was that the EU said it would be 'inappropriate' to hold an election right now. No idea if its true or not, or who said it if it is, but there's a BIG difference between saying "not sure this is a good idea right now" and "we are banning you from doing it".

A Farange speech in Brussels isn't going to be convincing evidence for me of anything.

I then googled "Greek election inappropriate" and couldn't find anything. If Farange is on to something, I can't find it.


The only difference between outright banning it and having the EU Commissioner say it out loud, seriously, in EU Parliament is in how brazen the messenger is. That would be like Trump walking in to the US House and saying New York state shouldn't be allowed to have an election until the US federal government agrees with their state budget first.
11-15-2018 06:15 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 06:11 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 04:00 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:47 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  People aren't being forced to remain....they're being lied to in order to be induced to leave. I don't think that if Hungary or Poland decided to say "we're leaving" that the EU would do anything but say 'good riddance'. What the nativists want is all the benefits of globalized first world economy without any of the things that make those economies possible.

The impact of Trump's bullying of the EU over funding and non-support for nativism/Putin's agenda did not result in EU compliance with Trumps agenda, but rather the creation of a military framework where the USA can only ask for their help, not demand it by virtue of control via NATO.

The EU feels it needs its own option to defend itself from Russia, because they, rightly, feel that Trump wouldn't bother to honor his commitment under the Atlantic Charter.

----

The next war, which sadly will be not long in coming, is the proximate result of the end of a worldwide system of human rights and consensus. When Putin can set off dirty bombs in British towns with impunity, when Saudi Arabia can kill journalists with impunity, when China can lock up a Million people in camps with impunity, when Russia can invade Georgia and Ukraine with impunity, then instead of resolving differences within a peaceful framework, the only thing to do to a threat.....is to take it down.

At least now, the forces of freedom are finally, FINALLY, stopping to ignore the treat of authoritarianism.


The EU has already told the Greeks they weren't allowed to have an election until they had a budget the EU liked first. That's tantamount to political warfare. The Greeks ultimately caved. But now the Italians are next up for the EU bankruptcy sweepstakes (followed by Portugal and Spain). And when the EU told the Italians their budget was unacceptable ... the Italians resubmitted the same budget. And in Italy the "this is our budget, we don't care" line is deeply bipartisan. Without a means to project force (read: a military) the EU has no way to force Italy to comply with budget demands. So either you continue to crush the Euro as a currency .... or you send in the military to crush the Italian government. One ends in the economic dissolution of the EU. The other ends in bloodshed and the eventual political dissolution of the EU. Pick one. Those are your only two options. The Germans don't have enough money -- literally -- to bail out the combined garbage balance sheets of Italy and Greece ... let alone all four of the imploding PIGS.

Let's put this in a slightly better perspective. The EU doesn't have enough money to handle Italy's debt and come out of it able to function. Spain and Portugal aren't even close to being the problem that Italy is. Greece was a firecracker. Italy is a Daisy Cutter.

Nation / National Debt / % to GDP
Italy / 2.1 Trillion / 131% to GDP
Spain / 1.18 Trillion / 98.98% to GDP
Greece / 372.13 Billion / 178% to GDP
Portugal / 214.5 Billion / 127% to GDP

Italy's Debt is larger than that of Spain, Greece, or Portugal's put together.

But the real danger beyond Italy is France. 2.38 Trillion in Debt which is 97% of their GDP.

Tick tock, tick tock, the Debt bomb is much closer to detonating in EU than most folks realize. Germany wants and needs England to shoulder the burden. Great Britain is only wise to get out now and quite frankly Merkel would be wise to wash her hands of it as well.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 06:40 PM by JRsec.)
11-15-2018 06:30 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Nigel Farage blasts Angela Merkel to her face in EU Parliament ... again
(11-15-2018 06:30 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 06:11 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 04:00 PM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  
(11-15-2018 03:47 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  People aren't being forced to remain....they're being lied to in order to be induced to leave. I don't think that if Hungary or Poland decided to say "we're leaving" that the EU would do anything but say 'good riddance'. What the nativists want is all the benefits of globalized first world economy without any of the things that make those economies possible.

The impact of Trump's bullying of the EU over funding and non-support for nativism/Putin's agenda did not result in EU compliance with Trumps agenda, but rather the creation of a military framework where the USA can only ask for their help, not demand it by virtue of control via NATO.

The EU feels it needs its own option to defend itself from Russia, because they, rightly, feel that Trump wouldn't bother to honor his commitment under the Atlantic Charter.

----

The next war, which sadly will be not long in coming, is the proximate result of the end of a worldwide system of human rights and consensus. When Putin can set off dirty bombs in British towns with impunity, when Saudi Arabia can kill journalists with impunity, when China can lock up a Million people in camps with impunity, when Russia can invade Georgia and Ukraine with impunity, then instead of resolving differences within a peaceful framework, the only thing to do to a threat.....is to take it down.

At least now, the forces of freedom are finally, FINALLY, stopping to ignore the treat of authoritarianism.


The EU has already told the Greeks they weren't allowed to have an election until they had a budget the EU liked first. That's tantamount to political warfare. The Greeks ultimately caved. But now the Italians are next up for the EU bankruptcy sweepstakes (followed by Portugal and Spain). And when the EU told the Italians their budget was unacceptable ... the Italians resubmitted the same budget. And in Italy the "this is our budget, we don't care" line is deeply bipartisan. Without a means to project force (read: a military) the EU has no way to force Italy to comply with budget demands. So either you continue to crush the Euro as a currency .... or you send in the military to crush the Italian government. One ends in the economic dissolution of the EU. The other ends in bloodshed and the eventual political dissolution of the EU. Pick one. Those are your only two options. The Germans don't have enough money -- literally -- to bail out the combined garbage balance sheets of Italy and Greece ... let alone all four of the imploding PIGS.

Let's put this in a slightly better perspective. The EU doesn't have enough money to handle Italy's debt and come out of it able to function. Spain and Portugal aren't even close to being the problem that Italy is. Greece was a firecracker. Italy is a Daisy Cutter.

Nation / National Debt / % to GDP
Italy / 2.1 Trillion / 131% to GDP
Spain / 1.18 Trillion / 98.98% to GDP
Greece / 372.13 Billion / 178% to GDP
Portugal / 214.5 Billion / 127% to GDP

Italy's Debt is larger than that of Spain, Greece, or Portugal's put together.

But the real danger beyond Italy is France. 2.38 Trillion in Debt which is 97% of their GDP.

Tick tock, tick tock, the Debt bomb is much closer to detonating in EU than most folks realize. Germany wants and needs England to shoulder the burden. Great Britain is only wise to get out now and quite frankly Merkel would be wise to wash her hands of it as well.

USA debt to gdp 110% of GDP. But many still support Trump's disastrous giveaway to the oligarchs

Germany's GDP is almost 3.8 Trillion. 64% Debt to GDP ratio. I think they can afford to bailout a few countries. Remember, you don't need to pay it all off, just provide enough assistance to get things under control.

Netherlands 54% of GDP. Total GDP 826 Billion
Ireland 68% of GDP. Total 330 Billion
Finland 61% of GDP. Total 251 Billion
Austria 78% of GDP. Total 451 Billion
Belgium 103% of GDP (down from 150percent) Total 500 Billion

Here are the countries with GDP to debt ratios less than the USA

Germany, France, the Netherlands, Belgium, SPAIN, Austria, Finland, Ireland. And some of these are WELL below 100%.

Here are the troubling ones.

Portugal 125% of GDP - 250 billion economy
Italy 131% of GDP - 1.9 Trillion economy
Greece 178% of GDP - 200 billion economy.

The problem is that Greece's economy keeps shrinking which is turning into a never ending cycle of austerity as a recession then requires even more cutbacks. Greece's level of debt isn't new and it has been managed.

Italy is a mess and has been one for decades. They've had a 100% plus Debt to GDP ratio for at least the last 30 years. Italy's debt level is slightly higher than the 20 year average, but this is manageable.

Portugal is tiny. Its Debt to GDP has been flat for the last 10 years and has actually been falling.

--------

The EU is on a far more stable financial footing than the US is right now. There's not some radically increasing debt levels in the Eurozone. And its far lower than the USA.
(This post was last modified: 11-15-2018 07:20 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
11-15-2018 07:19 PM
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