Whining about a "trade" war. Lol. Half our country would just surrender if we had a real war.

Wussies

Rearden would never go hat in hand to the government begging for protections.

If China wants to tax its citizens so that it can dump steel on the market, SO WHAT?! American citizens are saving money like crazy while Xi Jinping takes food out of his babies' mouths.

The American steel production industry is less than 4% of the combined American steel consumption industries. Does anyone have numbers that demonstrate the benefit to the US economy from these tariffs?

I think Brooke’s Owl hit on something inadvertently and it hits the nail on the head. I believe everything he is saying is undeniably true. However, what if the benefits of the economy continue to be isolated into a shrinking pool of people on the backs of a group. Is it wiser to pay more over a wider collection of people? I would argue that we can’t continue to have an economy that serves only the top 20%.


Discuss

(03-03-2018 08:38 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  I think Brooke’s Owl hit on something inadvertently and it hits the nail on the head. I believe everything he is saying is undeniably true. However, what if the benefits of the economy continue to be isolated into a shrinking pool of people on the backs of a group. Is it wiser to pay more over a wider collection of people? I would argue that we can’t continue to have an economy that serves only the top 20%.
Discuss

Okay, so what do you do about it, within the constraints imposed by the real world?

Buy American campaigns? We have the largest market. What do we do. We can’t continue to run imbalances and ignore our middle class.

(03-01-2018 03:47 PM)BobL Wrote:  I hate that DJT is president...

but damn...essentially calling NRA backed senators pu$$!es and today slapping tariffs on imported steel and aluminum....

He's going to cave to NRA on gun control.

They you play him on loop constantly saying. Why doesn’t anything ever get done? He said it about twenty times. His narcissism couldn’t tolerate it. Play that all the time. 24-7.

(03-03-2018 10:33 AM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Buy American campaigns? We have the largest market. What do we do. We can’t continue to run imbalances and ignore our middle class.

We've done those in the past, it's not been effective. Plus companies find ways "around" it.. Like making the Box for the product in the US and stamping "made in the USA" on the box

I thought the whole reason we put up with China's crap is "access to their market". Well if they are pricing us out of their market let's reciprocate.

Trump's trade idiocy is really dumb.

Sure, from a short term political perspective, it might help him cling to a Trump +20 Congressional District they should have no business losing anyway (PA's special election). But everywhere else, its a huge loser.

First of all, the only people who pay the costs of a trade war are the people who are on the side that create the tariffs. Electrolux has already publically announced that they're suspending expansion in Tennessee until this gets cleared up. Notice that while Trump is creating higher costs for critical industrial inputs, the EU is responding with targeted tariffs for finished goods which there are easy replacements locally (Harley-Davidson, Levis, and Kentucky Bourbon are going to be hit hard with tariffs - and Harley-Davidson is already in bad financial trouble). No European consumer or industry will be hurt by their response.

And the US doesn't import Steel from China in any significant amount. We import it from Canada, Brazil, Mexico, South Korea, Trump BFF Russia, and Trump BFF Turkey. Canada and Mexico can and will retaliate, but will do so smartly. South Korea? Want to see them yank investments in Trump states over this? Watch for all those countries to respond with targeted tariffs that are politically targeted.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. And it isn't going to help the US steelmakers in the long run. And steel is a mature industry anyway. Mature industries are characterized by low cost competition.

(03-03-2018 02:20 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Trump's trade idiocy is really dumb.

Sure, from a short term political perspective, it might help him cling to a Trump +20 Congressional District they should have no business losing anyway (PA's special election). But everywhere else, its a huge loser.

First of all, the only people who pay the costs of a trade war are the people who are on the side that create the tariffs. Electrolux has already publically announced that they're suspending expansion in Tennessee until this gets cleared up. Notice that while Trump is creating higher costs for critical industrial inputs, the EU is responding with targeted tariffs for finished goods which there are easy replacements locally (Harley-Davidson, Levis, and Kentucky Bourbon are going to be hit hard with tariffs - and Harley-Davidson is already in bad financial trouble). No European consumer or industry will be hurt by their response.

And the US doesn't import Steel from China in any significant amount. We import it from Canada, Brazil, Mexico, South Korea, Trump BFF Russia, and Trump BFF Turkey. Canada and Mexico can and will retaliate, but will do so smartly. South Korea? Want to see them yank investments in Trump states over this? Watch for all those countries to respond with targeted tariffs that are politically targeted.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. And it isn't going to help the US steelmakers in the long run. And steel is a mature industry anyway. Mature industries are characterized by low cost competition.

Democrats hate America

Excellent analysis Shere. You can tell by your response you hold a firm grasp on the nuances of economic policies and their reverberations. You add a ton to the board. Excellent.

(03-03-2018 08:21 PM)Machiavelli Wrote:  Excellent analysis Shere. You can tell by your response you hold a firm grasp on the nuances of economic policies and their reverberations. You add a ton to the board. Excellent.

Be kind Mach. Shere may be afflicted with CRI or Cranial-Rectal Insertion, otherwise known as Trump Worship Syndrome. Some outward symptoms of the malady can be speaking in baseless non-sequiturs, treating Trump's words as if they were scripture and an inability to move beyond the presidential election of 2016. They often use phrases like, "Yeah, but what about Obama" and can appear to have lost all objectivity as it relates to their Lord and Savior, Donald J. Trump. While in this irrational state, it is wise not to attempt a rational exchange of ideas with sufferers of Trump Worship Syndrome, as it seems to worsen the CRI and causes the insertion to deepen. The only known cure seems to be time and the ability of reason to overtake the delusion. Pray for them.

Part of the fix was done by cutting corporate rates bringing us in line with the world. His talk of tariffs and trade wars are NOT the rest of the fix. They will more than erase the gains from the rate cuts.

Something that becomes even more of a problem about Hawley-Smoot 2.0 (aka Trump)...Once you start with politically motivated tariffs, it becomes hard to stop.

So Trump enacts, in the name of national security - against the wishes of our national security leaders, a tariff on steel imports, in order to shore up GOP support in a +20 Congressional district he has no business losing.

But Trump made an idiotic mistake. His administration, in its rush to do something to wipe his bad week off the front pages and try to avoid what would be a very embarrassing and damaging loss in Pennsylvania on March 13, apparently had no idea that rising steel and aluminum costs are going to impact domestic car manufacturers. So now, he's threatening tariffs on car imports. That's going to set off an entirely new set of economic losers in the USA that will need intervention.

The rest of the world is fed up with the Toddler in Chief and isn't likely to put up with him much longer.

The Europeans made some moves for 'symbolic tariffs'. What happens if the world hits back at aircraft manufacturing or agriculture? Or even - gasp financial markets?

A lot of people compare Trump to Mussolini. I'd say he's looking a lot more like General Juan Peron right now.

---

Trump isn't thinking this through. But that's not much of a surprise anymore.

(03-04-2018 09:47 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Something that becomes even more of a problem about Hawley-Smoot 2.0 (aka Trump)...Once you start with politically motivated tariffs, it becomes hard to stop.
So Trump enacts, in the name of national security - against the wishes of our national security leaders, a tariff on steel imports, in order to shore up GOP support in a +20 Congressional district he has no business losing.
But Trump made an idiotic mistake. His administration, in its rush to do something to wipe his bad week off the front pages and try to avoid what would be a very embarrassing and damaging loss in Pennsylvania on March 13, apparently had no idea that rising steel and aluminum costs are going to impact domestic car manufacturers. So now, he's threatening tariffs on car imports. That's going to set off an entirely new set of economic losers in the USA that will need intervention.
The rest of the world is fed up with the Toddler in Chief and isn't likely to put up with him much longer.
The Europeans made some moves for 'symbolic tariffs'. What happens if the world hits back at aircraft manufacturing or agriculture? Or even - gasp financial markets?
A lot of people compare Trump to Mussolini. I'd say he's looking a lot more like General Juan Peron right now.
---
Trump isn't thinking this through. But that's not much of a surprise anymore.

No way Peron. But this is a stupid move. I liked his first year, but he may be through doing tings I like.

(03-02-2018 07:10 PM)Paul M Wrote:  

Rearden would never go hat in hand to the government begging for protections.

+1

(03-04-2018 12:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 09:47 AM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  Something that becomes even more of a problem about Hawley-Smoot 2.0 (aka Trump)...Once you start with politically motivated tariffs, it becomes hard to stop.
So Trump enacts, in the name of national security - against the wishes of our national security leaders, a tariff on steel imports, in order to shore up GOP support in a +20 Congressional district he has no business losing.
But Trump made an idiotic mistake. His administration, in its rush to do something to wipe his bad week off the front pages and try to avoid what would be a very embarrassing and damaging loss in Pennsylvania on March 13, apparently had no idea that rising steel and aluminum costs are going to impact domestic car manufacturers. So now, he's threatening tariffs on car imports. That's going to set off an entirely new set of economic losers in the USA that will need intervention.
The rest of the world is fed up with the Toddler in Chief and isn't likely to put up with him much longer.
The Europeans made some moves for 'symbolic tariffs'. What happens if the world hits back at aircraft manufacturing or agriculture? Or even - gasp financial markets?
A lot of people compare Trump to Mussolini. I'd say he's looking a lot more like General Juan Peron right now.
---
Trump isn't thinking this through. But that's not much of a surprise anymore.

No way Peron. But this is a stupid move. I liked his first year, but he may be through doing tings I like.

again, we agree....this a dumb macro move....

he's outside his element understanding cause/effect on this one....

(03-04-2018 09:10 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Part of the fix was done by cutting corporate rates bringing us in line with the world. His talk of tariffs and trade wars are NOT the rest of the fix. They will more than erase the gains from the rate cuts.

I tend to agree...and...it is simply counterproductive to market competition that we as capitalist country have embraced. Im very uncomfortable with tariffs unless they are specifically targeted at market players that are using coercion to end run natural processes of competition.

(03-04-2018 12:56 PM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(03-04-2018 09:10 AM)Paul M Wrote:  Part of the fix was done by cutting corporate rates bringing us in line with the world. His talk of tariffs and trade wars are NOT the rest of the fix. They will more than erase the gains from the rate cuts.

I tend to agree...and...it is simply counterproductive to market competition that we as capitalist country have embraced. Im very uncomfortable with tariffs unless they are specifically targeted at market players that are using coercion to end run natural processes of competition.

that is XACLY! the most sensible position to take....

I've lived through how mat'l costs impact so many other thingys.....

this one was unnecessary.....there's still other fallen fruit he should be focusing on.....

edit: an easy example was when china starting building empty cities choking out supply.....and what did our dipshite leadershite do.....not a dayum thingy except give them the resources to begin buying our debt so we could could continue spending on stupid shite,.....