(02-14-2018 05:03 PM)tcufrog86 Wrote:  The move of a lot of programs from the traditionally strong mid major conferences to the P5 or other basketball leagues who are traditionally strong with multi bids (A10, AAC, Big East) doesn't help the trend.

The Big East was never a mid-major league.

(02-14-2018 09:19 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 05:03 PM)tcufrog86 Wrote:  The move of a lot of programs from the traditionally strong mid major conferences to the P5 or other basketball leagues who are traditionally strong with multi bids (A10, AAC, Big East) doesn't help the trend.

The Big East was never a mid-major league.

Never said they were, I was saying teams moved from mid major leagues to the Big East like a Creighton for example. P5 refers to the football conferences so I called out Big East separately. Big East is in the top tier of basketball conferences.

(02-14-2018 06:09 PM)Wedge Wrote:  So the "complaint" of this article is that teams like these that "no longer stink" are now trying to win at basketball, and that the internet and recruiting services make it easier for any coach to discover players that might have been ignored by power-conference teams in the past.

Those are not just men's basketball issues -- one could easily make the same observations about women's basketball, baseball, softball, and other sports.

Big West baseball in 2017 - two bids. three in 2016. two in 2015. four in 2014. three in 2013

men's soccer is usually a multibid league. women's volleyball earned two bids this year. we're doing okay

(02-14-2018 06:51 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 06:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 06:27 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  In the last five years the Missouri Valley, A-10, Mountain West, and C-USA lost Xavier, Butler, Creighton, Wichita, Memphis, and Utah. These 6 teams probably averaged 3 bids in most years. Those bids are no longer going to mid-major conferences.

But it's not because the remaining mid-major schools are any further behind. Rather, the remaining mid-majors (with the exception of Gonzaga, Dayton, and a few more) never had the fan support or resources to compete. They just used to get routinely blown out by the Butlers and Creightons who dominated their conference.

Not true. The Missouri Valley and all but a few programs in the Atlantic 10 were very competitive.

In the last 10 years- Wichita and Creighton have gotten 8 NCAA tourney bids. the rest of the MVC had gotten 6 combined.

Also I would add Temple to his list. The A10 losing Xavier, Temple and replacing with VCU and Davidson is just not a wash at all whatsoever(not even taking into account George Mason)- and would even add Butler to those that they lost.

Good point.

Since they joined the A-10 in 1996, Xavier won 72% of their A-10 conference games and never had a losing conference record.

Since they joined the A-10 in 1982, Temple won 74% of their A-10 conference games and only had 2 losing conference records.

This number is so high that a significant portion of Xavier & Temple's conference losses during this time were to each other.

Creighton and Wichita were not as dominant 20 years ago, but in their last 15 years in the MVC, Wichita won 71% of their conference games and Creighton won 68%.

(02-14-2018 07:01 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 06:51 PM)stever20 Wrote:  The A10 losing Xavier, Temple and replacing with VCU and Davidson is just not a wash at all whatsoever

???

In each of their first five seasons in the A-10, VCU won at least 25 games every season and played in the NCAA tournament every season. Xavier has 4 NCAA appearances in that 5-year span.

Davidson has 3 NCAA tournaments in that 5-year period. Temple has only one.

Xavier was playing in a much tougher conference than the A-10 over that time frame.

(02-14-2018 05:59 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 05:57 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  ^^ You too need to grow some skin. Excuse me for not including the BE. It is just easier to type P5 vs. P5+BE.

maybe type P6 I'm sure we would all know who 6 is referring to! (even if p5 is a fb term)

But the American isn't one of the conferences they were referring to.

(02-14-2018 11:49 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 06:09 PM)Wedge Wrote:  So the "complaint" of this article is that teams like these that "no longer stink" are now trying to win at basketball, and that the internet and recruiting services make it easier for any coach to discover players that might have been ignored by power-conference teams in the past.

Those are not just men's basketball issues -- one could easily make the same observations about women's basketball, baseball, softball, and other sports.

Big West baseball in 2017 - two bids. three in 2016. two in 2015. four in 2014. three in 2013

men's soccer is usually a multibid league. women's volleyball earned two bids this year. we're doing okay

The trend is toward the athletic departments with the most revenue spending enough of it to take up more of the NCAA tournament places in various sports.

2017 NCAA baseball tournament: 26 at-large bids to teams in a P5 conference. 7 at-large bids to teams not in a P5 conference.

2017 NCAA men's basketball tournament: 26 at-large bids to teams in a P5 conference. 10 at-large bids to teams not in a P5 conference, and the Big East had 6 of those.

2017 NCAA women's basketball tournament: 27 at-large bids to teams in a P5 conference. 5 at-large bids to teams not in a P5 conference.

if you take the AAC and Big East with Wedge's post...
2017 NCAA baseball tournament- 29 at large bids to teams in P5+ conferences. 4 to teams not in those conferences
2017 NCAA mens basketball- 33 at large bids to teams in p5+ conferences. 3 to teams not in those conferences.
2017 NCAA women's basketball- 31 at large bids to teams in p5+ conferences. 1 to team not in those conferences.

using today's bracketology- for mbb this year only 1 at large bid projected to non p5+ conferences. And in WBB from 2/12 bracketology- only 1 as well.

(02-15-2018 11:58 AM)Wedge Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 11:49 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 06:09 PM)Wedge Wrote:  So the "complaint" of this article is that teams like these that "no longer stink" are now trying to win at basketball, and that the internet and recruiting services make it easier for any coach to discover players that might have been ignored by power-conference teams in the past.

Those are not just men's basketball issues -- one could easily make the same observations about women's basketball, baseball, softball, and other sports.

Big West baseball in 2017 - two bids. three in 2016. two in 2015. four in 2014. three in 2013

men's soccer is usually a multibid league. women's volleyball earned two bids this year. we're doing okay

The trend is toward the athletic departments with the most revenue spending enough of it to take up more of the NCAA tournament places in various sports.

2017 NCAA baseball tournament: 26 at-large bids to teams in a P5 conference. 7 at-large bids to teams not in a P5 conference.

2017 NCAA men's basketball tournament: 26 at-large bids to teams in a P5 conference. 10 at-large bids to teams not in a P5 conference, and the Big East had 6 of those.

2017 NCAA women's basketball tournament: 27 at-large bids to teams in a P5 conference. 5 at-large bids to teams not in a P5 conference.

The P5 teams who earned at-larges in baseball, does that include Cal State Fullerton? Because ESPN called the Big West a P5 for baseball.

(02-14-2018 05:57 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  ^^ You too need to grow some skin. Excuse me for not including the BE. It is just easier to type P5 vs. P5+BE.

I generally hate arguing over semantics, but I disagree on this point - it's a pretty material difference that totally deviates from what the article is actually saying. P5 has a very specific definition and when I saw your headline, the first thing that I thought is, "Interesting - the P5 conferences are creating a divide with leagues like the Big East?" The article was then completely different. Plus, we're on a message board that is entirely dedicated to conference realignment, so we as a group knows what "P5" means probably better than any other group on the entire Internet (so specificity definitely matters with this audience).

(02-15-2018 04:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 05:57 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  ^^ You too need to grow some skin. Excuse me for not including the BE. It is just easier to type P5 vs. P5+BE.

I generally hate arguing over semantics, but I disagree on this point - it's a pretty material difference that totally deviates from what the article is actually saying. P5 has a very specific definition and when I saw your headline, the first thing that I thought is, "Interesting - the P5 conferences are creating a divide with leagues like the Big East?" The article was then completely different. Plus, we're on a message board that is entirely dedicated to conference realignment, so we as a group knows what "P5" means probably better than any other group on the entire Internet (so specificity definitely matters with this audience).

Agreed, the status of the Big East vs-a-vis the P5 with respect to hoops is a Thing, an issue that is discussed here, so it is misleading to title a post in a way that implies that the article cited says that the Big East is among the conferences that the P5 is leaving behind, when in fact it says that the Big East is with the P5 in leaving the G5 behind.

(02-15-2018 04:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 05:57 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  ^^ You too need to grow some skin. Excuse me for not including the BE. It is just easier to type P5 vs. P5+BE.

I generally hate arguing over semantics, but I disagree on this point - it's a pretty material difference that totally deviates from what the article is actually saying. P5 has a very specific definition and when I saw your headline, the first thing that I thought is, "Interesting - the P5 conferences are creating a divide with leagues like the Big East?" The article was then completely different. Plus, we're on a message board that is entirely dedicated to conference realignment, so we as a group knows what "P5" means probably better than any other group on the entire Internet (so specificity definitely matters with this audience).

I've come up with a good one: traditional power conferences. I think that's a good catch all.

(02-15-2018 04:57 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 04:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 05:57 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  ^^ You too need to grow some skin. Excuse me for not including the BE. It is just easier to type P5 vs. P5+BE.

I generally hate arguing over semantics, but I disagree on this point - it's a pretty material difference that totally deviates from what the article is actually saying. P5 has a very specific definition and when I saw your headline, the first thing that I thought is, "Interesting - the P5 conferences are creating a divide with leagues like the Big East?" The article was then completely different. Plus, we're on a message board that is entirely dedicated to conference realignment, so we as a group knows what "P5" means probably better than any other group on the entire Internet (so specificity definitely matters with this audience).

I've come up with a good one: traditional power conferences. I think that's a good catch all.

"surviving traditional power conferences"

Southwest Conference, Big 8 and Big East football don't exist anymore.

(02-15-2018 04:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  we as a group knows what "P5" means probably better than any other group on the entire Internet

Right. To use an analogy that you've used here before, "P5" refers to 5 specific conferences, just like "Ivy League" refers to 8 specific schools, even though some might like to refer to other schools as a "public Ivy" or a "west coast Ivy" or whatever.

This is all leading to new division that will no longer play in the current national NCAA basketball tournament. I foresee a division where all its teams play both football and basketball. P8 is my guess and it will leave the current NCAA behind. It will have its own by-laws and championship games.

(02-15-2018 05:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 04:57 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 04:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 05:57 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  ^^ You too need to grow some skin. Excuse me for not including the BE. It is just easier to type P5 vs. P5+BE.

I generally hate arguing over semantics, but I disagree on this point - it's a pretty material difference that totally deviates from what the article is actually saying. P5 has a very specific definition and when I saw your headline, the first thing that I thought is, "Interesting - the P5 conferences are creating a divide with leagues like the Big East?" The article was then completely different. Plus, we're on a message board that is entirely dedicated to conference realignment, so we as a group knows what "P5" means probably better than any other group on the entire Internet (so specificity definitely matters with this audience).

I've come up with a good one: traditional power conferences. I think that's a good catch all.

"surviving traditional power conferences"

Southwest Conference, Big 8 and Big East football don't exist anymore.

That's too much to write/say. Traditional power conferences are fine.

(02-15-2018 06:40 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  This is all leading to new division that will no longer play in the current national NCAA basketball tournament. I foresee a division where all its teams play both football and basketball. P8 is my guess and it will leave the current NCAA behind. It will have its own by-laws and championship games.

It could be where things end up.

I think a lot of the at-large bid dry up for the mid majors started when they decided to no longer count the last 10 games in considering whether a program was worthy for a bid.

For example a good mid major program going 9-1 in its last 10 losing in its conference final would be in over a power program going 5-5 in its last 10 when both had identical RPIs. They moved away from this about 10 years ago.

Before that there would be a lot more at-large bids out of Horizon, MAC, MAAC, CAA type conferences, usually at least 2 mid major at-larges. Its now a virtual impossibility to go at-large out of those conferences.

Western Kentucky pulled in two top 50 recruits (granted one never played) and a few years back UNLV was getting guys in the top 50 and had a #1 overall pick. College hoops is and always will be about coaches. SMU is another example of what a great coach can do (Brown and Jank). Rutgers is still terrible. Northwestern had a lucky run. Has Oregon State been good since The Glove? I wouldn't start championing the bottom of the Power Conferences just yet. It's not like SJU is some upstart.

(02-15-2018 08:36 PM)esayem Wrote:  Western Kentucky pulled in two top 50 recruits (granted one never played) and a few years back UNLV was getting guys in the top 50 and had a #1 overall pick. College hoops is and always will be about coaches. SMU is another example of what a great coach can do (Brown and Jank). Rutgers is still terrible. Northwestern had a lucky run. Has Oregon State been good since The Glove? I wouldn't start championing the bottom of the Power Conferences just yet. It's not like SJU is some upstart.

I guess we will have to see if the NCAA selection committee is kind enough to give #26 Middle Tennessee and #35 Buffalo at-large bids if they don't win their conference.

It may be the year we see something like that as the committee has promised adjustments.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...t-process/

(02-15-2018 05:38 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 04:57 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(02-15-2018 04:27 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(02-14-2018 05:57 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  ^^ You too need to grow some skin. Excuse me for not including the BE. It is just easier to type P5 vs. P5+BE.

I generally hate arguing over semantics, but I disagree on this point - it's a pretty material difference that totally deviates from what the article is actually saying. P5 has a very specific definition and when I saw your headline, the first thing that I thought is, "Interesting - the P5 conferences are creating a divide with leagues like the Big East?" The article was then completely different. Plus, we're on a message board that is entirely dedicated to conference realignment, so we as a group knows what "P5" means probably better than any other group on the entire Internet (so specificity definitely matters with this audience).

I've come up with a good one: traditional power conferences. I think that's a good catch all.

"surviving traditional power conferences"

Southwest Conference, Big 8 and Big East football don't exist anymore.

I actually think "BCS Conferences" is the best term.