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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #41
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-18-2018 10:52 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-18-2018 09:11 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  It's not about averging 32k, it's about making sure you have more than enough seats for the biggest games. Even 37k seems significantly bigger than 32k.

If you can charge more per-ticket for 32,000 seats because of higher demand, then you might make more money than you would with 37,000 seats.

Because the in-home experience is so good now, it's nuts for anyone to build a new stadium, ballpark, or arena with 1970s or 1980s capacity. Better to have fewer seats and create demand or envy among people who couldn't get in and might pay more next time to get in.

IMO, they are building too many seats into the new LA football stadium because they are stuck in old-stadium thinking. 60,000 would be better than 70,000.

They just approved funding for a new stadium in downtown Birmingham a few weeks ago.

The original plan for a dome many years ago would have been a standard sized stadium, however, the most recent plan was an open air design that only has about 50K seats I believe. Thankfully, the leaders have given up on their NFL pipe dream.

It will also be configured for soccer which is probably the wave of the future. That and Birmingham is getting a USL team so it's good timing.
04-18-2018 12:17 PM
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_C2_ Online
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Post: #42
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
You can charge just as much for 37k. Just tarp off what you don't need if you find you don't need it often over time.

We're not talking about the Midwest cookie cutters of the 70's or today's Yankees Stadium, 32k is way too small and you'll find you'll be screwing your fanbase when it comes to big games.
04-18-2018 12:19 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #43
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
Sadly, baseball is a declining sport. There are simply too many games for smaller markets that don't have a long established fan culture to consistently sell out or at least put enough butts in seats to not look embarrassed on television. I wouldn't be shocked if we see Tampa and Oakland shuttered and a return to the old East/West AL/NL set up with the Central teams absorbed:

AL East: Bos, NYY, Tor, Bal, Cle, Det, CWS
AL West: LAA, Sea, Hou, Tex, Mil, Min, KC

NL East: NYM, Phi, Wash, Pit, Atl, Mia, Cincy
NL West: LAD, SD, SF, Arz, Col, St L, ChiCubs
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2018 08:18 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
04-18-2018 08:18 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #44
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
No chance of contraction, because it would require MLB to buy a franchise in order to fold it, and MLB isn't going to shell out $2 billion to contract two teams. It's much more profitable to do what the NFL did, i.e., let a team (or three) move and charge them an extremely high "relocation fee".

Every NBA team is also worth at least a billion, so forget about contracting any of them, either.
04-18-2018 09:02 PM
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_C2_ Online
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Post: #45
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-18-2018 08:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Sadly, baseball is a declining sport. There are simply too many games for smaller markets that don't have a long established fan culture to consistently sell out or at least put enough butts in seats to not look embarrassed on television. I wouldn't be shocked if we see Tampa and Oakland shuttered and a return to the old East/West AL/NL set up with the Central teams absorbed:

AL East: Bos, NYY, Tor, Bal, Cle, Det, CWS
AL West: LAA, Sea, Hou, Tex, Mil, Min, KC

NL East: NYM, Phi, Wash, Pit, Atl, Mia, Cincy
NL West: LAD, SD, SF, Arz, Col, St L, ChiCubs

As I always say, they need to just play weekends and holidays. Who has the attention span to watch 162 games for six straight months? I'm sure some players loathe playing almost EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. for six straight months.
(This post was last modified: 04-18-2018 09:27 PM by _C2_.)
04-18-2018 09:26 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #46
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-18-2018 09:26 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(04-18-2018 08:18 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Sadly, baseball is a declining sport. There are simply too many games for smaller markets that don't have a long established fan culture to consistently sell out or at least put enough butts in seats to not look embarrassed on television. I wouldn't be shocked if we see Tampa and Oakland shuttered and a return to the old East/West AL/NL set up with the Central teams absorbed:

AL East: Bos, NYY, Tor, Bal, Cle, Det, CWS
AL West: LAA, Sea, Hou, Tex, Mil, Min, KC

NL East: NYM, Phi, Wash, Pit, Atl, Mia, Cincy
NL West: LAD, SD, SF, Arz, Col, St L, ChiCubs

As I always say, they need to just play weekends and holidays. Who has the attention span to watch 162 games for six straight months? I'm sure some players loathe playing almost EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. for six straight months.

I will agree that they play too many games. The market, in a sense of the word, is flooded with baseball and that detracts from the interest of it. Especially when your team is doing poorly, it's hard to keep track of what happens every single day and also genuinely care about the outcome.

One of the great things about football and soccer as well is that you only play once a week. This makes each game an event and not just a contest. If you're a fan then these events are must-see. With baseball, however, why pay any special attention to tonight's game? They're playing again tomorrow so you're really not going to miss anything that has any great bearing.

Which leads me to this...when you have a scarcity of games then the impact of winning and losing is magnified. The game isn't just an event, the results have long term bearing and that generates passion and excitement.

I wouldn't reduce the schedule to playing on weekends only, but I would say play every team in a 5 game series on Wednesday through Sunday. Skip Mondays and Tuesdays. The 5 game series also has the feature of allowing each team to use their entire rotation rather than a schedule that allows teams to miss the best or perhaps the worst starters.

It should reduce travel as well because there's no need to play multiple 5 game series against each team. Maybe play home and away against your division mates...that would be 40 games.

A single series against every other team in the league...that would be 50 games.

Then maybe a handful of series against teams in the other league.

It should reduce the number of games significantly and create a little more intrigue.
04-19-2018 01:20 PM
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PirateTreasureNC Offline
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Post: #47
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
I am still in disbelief that North Carolina via Charlotte OR RDU area hasn't gotten a MLB team.
04-19-2018 01:33 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #48
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 01:33 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  I am still in disbelief that North Carolina via Charlotte OR RDU area hasn't gotten a MLB team.

I'm sure that market could support a team, but there are lots and lots of Braves fans up there. Braves ownership would fight that tooth and nail.
04-19-2018 02:01 PM
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BobcatEngineer Offline
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Post: #49
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
Just wanted to share an interesting map I found browsing reddit:

[Image: _Zce3nyTC4D0KkKG2DH7Cr3sjIhLv5g9-Ym799Dk...3aef541393]

Looks like Atlanta has by far the most population living closest by car to its stadium.
04-19-2018 02:45 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #50
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 02:01 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 01:33 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  I am still in disbelief that North Carolina via Charlotte OR RDU area hasn't gotten a MLB team.

I'm sure that market could support a team, but there are lots and lots of Braves fans up there. Braves ownership would fight that tooth and nail.

Most of North Carolina is not in the Braves TV territory. MLB has put them in Orioles/Nationals territory.

[Image: MLB_Blackout_Areas.jpg]
04-19-2018 04:07 PM
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PirateTreasureNC Offline
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Post: #51
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 04:07 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 02:01 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 01:33 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  I am still in disbelief that North Carolina via Charlotte OR RDU area hasn't gotten a MLB team.

I'm sure that market could support a team, but there are lots and lots of Braves fans up there. Braves ownership would fight that tooth and nail.

Most of North Carolina is not in the Braves TV territory. MLB has put them in Orioles/Nationals territory.

[Image: MLB_Blackout_Areas.jpg]


If you can have the Hornets (NBA), the Panthers (NFL), and the Hurricanes (NHL) you can darn sure support a MLB team. You never really had neighboring states with teams try to stop those teams coming into being.
04-19-2018 04:26 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #52
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 04:26 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:07 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 02:01 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 01:33 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  I am still in disbelief that North Carolina via Charlotte OR RDU area hasn't gotten a MLB team.

I'm sure that market could support a team, but there are lots and lots of Braves fans up there. Braves ownership would fight that tooth and nail.

Most of North Carolina is not in the Braves TV territory. MLB has put them in Orioles/Nationals territory.

[Image: MLB_Blackout_Areas.jpg]


If you can have the Hornets (NBA), the Panthers (NFL), and the Hurricanes (NHL) you can darn sure support a MLB team. You never really had neighboring states with teams try to stop those teams coming into being.

I think it would be more about demanding compensation from the expansion team paid to the team losing some of its local TV territory. That isn't an issue at all with the NFL, and it's only been an issue with NBA or MLB in recent years because of the amount of money that local TV deals can bring in. An existing franchise would argue, look, there's a $1 billion expansion fee coming in, and we deserve a greater-than-equal share of that, or additional compensation paid by the new team's owners, because we're losing a few million homes in our TV territory.

A Portland MLB franchise would have a similar issue, because they would get about a third of the Mariners' TV territory.
04-19-2018 04:46 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
I'd look at relocating the Rays to North Carolina and the Marlins to Nashville or New Orleans. They could be kept in the same divisions. Florida just doesn't seem to be cutting it for attendance or fans. Or one of them to Portland and shift as necessary.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2018 04:49 PM by BePcr07.)
04-19-2018 04:49 PM
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Post: #54
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 02:45 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Looks like Atlanta has by far the most population living closest by car to its stadium.

If by "closest" you mean "fastest" then sure but I suspect there are MANY more cars MUCH closer to Dodger Stadium. Drive time on the other hand? No argument there. I've been on the 110 Freeway, less than 2 miles from the gates and taken over an hour to get in the parking lot. Hell, went to a playoff game last year and it took us nearly one hour to get out of our SECTION of the parking lot. Another 30 minutes to get out of Chavez Ravine.
04-19-2018 05:06 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #55
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 05:06 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 02:45 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Looks like Atlanta has by far the most population living closest by car to its stadium.

If by "closest" you mean "fastest" then sure but I suspect there are MANY more cars MUCH closer to Dodger Stadium. Drive time on the other hand? No argument there. I've been on the 110 Freeway, less than 2 miles from the gates and taken over an hour to get in the parking lot. Hell, went to a playoff game last year and it took us nearly one hour to get out of our SECTION of the parking lot. Another 30 minutes to get out of Chavez Ravine.

That reminds me of that episode of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" in which Larry picks up a hooker just so he can use the carpool lane to get to a Dodgers game on time.
04-19-2018 05:31 PM
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Brookes Owl Online
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Post: #56
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 05:31 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 05:06 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 02:45 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  Looks like Atlanta has by far the most population living closest by car to its stadium.

If by "closest" you mean "fastest" then sure but I suspect there are MANY more cars MUCH closer to Dodger Stadium. Drive time on the other hand? No argument there. I've been on the 110 Freeway, less than 2 miles from the gates and taken over an hour to get in the parking lot. Hell, went to a playoff game last year and it took us nearly one hour to get out of our SECTION of the parking lot. Another 30 minutes to get out of Chavez Ravine.

That reminds me of that episode of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" in which Larry picks up a hooker just so he can use the carpool lane to get to a Dodgers game on time.

03-lmfao A damned good idea.
04-19-2018 05:48 PM
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_C2_ Online
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Post: #57
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 01:33 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  I am still in disbelief that North Carolina via Charlotte OR RDU area hasn't gotten a MLB team.

There's simply not enough disposable income and enough people, at least not enough to support three majors sports. And RD also has quasi-pro sports with its major colleges, granted, not during baseball season.
04-19-2018 09:54 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #58
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-19-2018 04:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:26 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:07 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 02:01 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 01:33 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  I am still in disbelief that North Carolina via Charlotte OR RDU area hasn't gotten a MLB team.

I'm sure that market could support a team, but there are lots and lots of Braves fans up there. Braves ownership would fight that tooth and nail.

Most of North Carolina is not in the Braves TV territory. MLB has put them in Orioles/Nationals territory.

[Image: MLB_Blackout_Areas.jpg]


If you can have the Hornets (NBA), the Panthers (NFL), and the Hurricanes (NHL) you can darn sure support a MLB team. You never really had neighboring states with teams try to stop those teams coming into being.

I think it would be more about demanding compensation from the expansion team paid to the team losing some of its local TV territory. That isn't an issue at all with the NFL, and it's only been an issue with NBA or MLB in recent years because of the amount of money that local TV deals can bring in. An existing franchise would argue, look, there's a $1 billion expansion fee coming in, and we deserve a greater-than-equal share of that, or additional compensation paid by the new team's owners, because we're losing a few million homes in our TV territory.

A Portland MLB franchise would have a similar issue, because they would get about a third of the Mariners' TV territory.

I've seen fan analysis in the past that registered NC and even a good chunk of VA in the Braves column.

The Braves were on TBS for so many years that it almost didn't matter where you lived and they become one of the more popular franchises in the nation. There were tons and tons of Braves fans in Florida for that matter until the Marlins and Rays arrived to make a dent.

Now, I'll say that the Expos moving to Washington did cut into their fan base in the region, but I would surprised if NC wasn't full of people that were more interested in watching the Braves if they had a choice.

I think one of the issues at play here is the reach of the RSNs. The Braves signed an absolutely horrible media deal with Fox Sports after the TBS days ended and have been paying the price ever since.
04-20-2018 02:07 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #59
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-20-2018 02:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:26 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:07 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 02:01 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  I'm sure that market could support a team, but there are lots and lots of Braves fans up there. Braves ownership would fight that tooth and nail.

Most of North Carolina is not in the Braves TV territory. MLB has put them in Orioles/Nationals territory.

[Image: MLB_Blackout_Areas.jpg]


If you can have the Hornets (NBA), the Panthers (NFL), and the Hurricanes (NHL) you can darn sure support a MLB team. You never really had neighboring states with teams try to stop those teams coming into being.

I think it would be more about demanding compensation from the expansion team paid to the team losing some of its local TV territory. That isn't an issue at all with the NFL, and it's only been an issue with NBA or MLB in recent years because of the amount of money that local TV deals can bring in. An existing franchise would argue, look, there's a $1 billion expansion fee coming in, and we deserve a greater-than-equal share of that, or additional compensation paid by the new team's owners, because we're losing a few million homes in our TV territory.

A Portland MLB franchise would have a similar issue, because they would get about a third of the Mariners' TV territory.

I've seen fan analysis in the past that registered NC and even a good chunk of VA in the Braves column.

The Braves were on TBS for so many years that it almost didn't matter where you lived and they become one of the more popular franchises in the nation. There were tons and tons of Braves fans in Florida for that matter until the Marlins and Rays arrived to make a dent.

Now, I'll say that the Expos moving to Washington did cut into their fan base in the region, but I would surprised if NC wasn't full of people that were more interested in watching the Braves if they had a choice.

I think one of the issues at play here is the reach of the RSNs. The Braves signed an absolutely horrible media deal with Fox Sports after the TBS days ended and have been paying the price ever since.

Asking people in VA or NC who they root for is different. The Braves can't get compensation for that. They could get compensation, maybe, if their TV territory was diminished by expansion (or by the Rays moving to North Carolina, or whatever).

It looks to me like MLB was trying to balance the competing interests of different clubs when they decide which team could broadcast its local telecasts to which areas. I suspect that they put North Carolina into the Orioles/Nationals territory because those two teams have to divide their territory and they wanted to give it as many TV homes as possible, whether or not many people in North Carolina are Orioles fans.
04-20-2018 02:44 PM
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AllTideUp Offline
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Post: #60
RE: MLB Expansion/Realignment
(04-20-2018 02:44 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-20-2018 02:07 PM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:46 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:26 PM)PirateTreasureNC Wrote:  
(04-19-2018 04:07 PM)Wedge Wrote:  Most of North Carolina is not in the Braves TV territory. MLB has put them in Orioles/Nationals territory.

[Image: MLB_Blackout_Areas.jpg]


If you can have the Hornets (NBA), the Panthers (NFL), and the Hurricanes (NHL) you can darn sure support a MLB team. You never really had neighboring states with teams try to stop those teams coming into being.

I think it would be more about demanding compensation from the expansion team paid to the team losing some of its local TV territory. That isn't an issue at all with the NFL, and it's only been an issue with NBA or MLB in recent years because of the amount of money that local TV deals can bring in. An existing franchise would argue, look, there's a $1 billion expansion fee coming in, and we deserve a greater-than-equal share of that, or additional compensation paid by the new team's owners, because we're losing a few million homes in our TV territory.

A Portland MLB franchise would have a similar issue, because they would get about a third of the Mariners' TV territory.

I've seen fan analysis in the past that registered NC and even a good chunk of VA in the Braves column.

The Braves were on TBS for so many years that it almost didn't matter where you lived and they become one of the more popular franchises in the nation. There were tons and tons of Braves fans in Florida for that matter until the Marlins and Rays arrived to make a dent.

Now, I'll say that the Expos moving to Washington did cut into their fan base in the region, but I would surprised if NC wasn't full of people that were more interested in watching the Braves if they had a choice.

I think one of the issues at play here is the reach of the RSNs. The Braves signed an absolutely horrible media deal with Fox Sports after the TBS days ended and have been paying the price ever since.

Asking people in VA or NC who they root for is different. The Braves can't get compensation for that. They could get compensation, maybe, if their TV territory was diminished by expansion (or by the Rays moving to North Carolina, or whatever).

It looks to me like MLB was trying to balance the competing interests of different clubs when they decide which team could broadcast its local telecasts to which areas. I suspect that they put North Carolina into the Orioles/Nationals territory because those two teams have to divide their territory and they wanted to give it as many TV homes as possible, whether or not many people in North Carolina are Orioles fans.

I think you're probably right.

That alone might be a reason why the MLB wouldn't want a club in Charlotte or Raleigh.
04-21-2018 02:02 PM
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