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Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:17 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Ironically it was Oklahoma who started this mess by suing the NCAA in the 80's over their monopoly on TV revenue. Now they are the ones getting squeezed.

Neither OU nor anyone else foresaw when they filed that lawsuit that the end result would be that each conference is the bargaining unit for media rights. The SEC and Big Ten were already well-positioned before that Supreme Court decision, but being in one of those conferences is now a far larger advantage over being in OU's Big 8 or Big 12 just because each conference negotiates its own TV contracts.
05-09-2017 04:34 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:14 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:25 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The people suggesting OU doesn't fit the B1G are SEC fans claiming OU is "kinda" confederacy. They are Great Plains. sure Southerners made up a good chunk of the settlers, but first generation European immigrants made up the majority. There were never slave plantations there. There are no complaints coming from B1G people. Trammel is incorrect in this, just as he is in AAU being an absolute requirement. (R1 Carnegie and inside the top 10% of research schools is, an OU meets that).

We might consider Kansas, but OU is our focus, but it has nothing to do with the Old South. It has everything to do with our % of share in the DFW market without having to take another Texas school. With Arkansas, A&M and OU the SEC would have a strong % of viewers in DFW plus the state of Oklahoma. It is about efficiency. We could gain the same thing with Texas, but wouldn't be adding a state.

Kansas has issues. Averaging 24,000 for home football games is a wet towel in the face to the SEC. Basketball would be a huge plus but basketball is only 15% of our total revenue from sports.

I agree about extending conference footprints beyond old geographical boundaries. Certainly Maryland and Rutgers and Missouri and somewhat A&M have done that for the Big 10 and SEC.

I don't know where this will wind up but right now I see more advantages to 18 than to 16 and not as many at 20. The geography in the SEC is such that 18 would actually allow us to break into 3 divisions of 6. That not only makes most of your non revenue schedule local, but provides for some very tight groupings where the schools in the divisions have ample ties to one another.

Kansas gives Kentucky someone to talk to during league meetings. 03-lmfao
05-09-2017 04:37 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.

Most of those were charter members and in Mississippi the mission of the schools are very similar to those of West Virginia.

Apples and Oranges. The comparison is SEC vs B1G or P12. Inertia bias is not relevant. One does not have to leave one's home, but when one does they prefer to move in with the more compatible group.

SEC perception among faculty is a real issue. 3 of 4 R2 public Universities in P5 are in the SEC. The Big 12 did have steady subtle pressure ( most from Texas) which resulted in Kansas State, Texas Tech, and West Virginia investing to attain R1 status. That has not happened in the SEC.

The solution for the SEC is for a member (Kentucky is the closest) to make AAU and to push the Alabama and Mississippi school to get serious about their research rankings. So far it's all about being Southerners and continuing the stereotype that Southerners rank education lower than sports. That is the choice the SEC is making.
05-09-2017 04:51 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:51 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.

Most of those were charter members and in Mississippi the mission of the schools are very similar to those of West Virginia.

Apples and Oranges. The comparison is SEC vs B1G or P12. Inertia bias is not relevant. One does not have to leave one's home, but when one does they prefer to move in with the more compatible group.

SEC perception among faculty is a real issue. 3 of 4 R2 public Universities in P5 are in the SEC. The Big 12 did have steady subtle pressure ( most from Texas) which resulted in Kansas State, Texas Tech, and West Virginia investing to attain R1 status. That has not happened in the SEC.

The solution for the SEC is for a member (Kentucky is the closest) to make AAU and to push the Alabama and Mississippi school to get serious about their research rankings. So far it's all about being Southerners and continuing the stereotype that Southerners rank education lower than sports. That is the choice the SEC is making.

This is a tired line.

Not all schools specialize in the same types of academic areas and not all research is dollar intensive.

For instance, Alabama's most respected program is accounting, which is elite, but how much in the way of research dollars go into accounting?

Your metric is a crude attempt at a one size fits all that at its core is rather, well, stupid and not reflective of how schools compare themselves to one another.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 04:58 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
05-09-2017 04:57 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not really, in a hypothetical OU and UT to the B1G Oklahoma would be battling long time rivals Texas, Nebraska and new rivals Iowa and Wisconsin for western division supremacy and end up facing Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, etc for the conference championship. The conference potentially could push for a four team conference playoff with this as well.
05-09-2017 04:57 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:57 PM)AntiG Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not really, in a hypothetical OU and UT to the B1G Oklahoma would be battling long time rivals Texas, Nebraska and new rivals Iowa and Wisconsin for western division supremacy and end up facing Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, etc for the conference championship. The conference potentially could push for a four team conference playoff with this as well.
I agree with KH. I think OU's leadership role would be severely diminished in a conference dominated by Ohio State and Michigan, the traditional leaders, and AAU schools. I also don't think the OU boosters and fan base would embrace a football program that loses more than 1 game per season and wins by fewer than 24 points per game.
05-09-2017 05:15 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I like these PAC-14 divisions.

North: Stanford, USC, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Utah
South: USC, UCLA, Arizona, ASU, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas

OU and USC would be a big national game. Colorado gets OU and KU back on the schedule rivals from the Big 8.

UCLA-Arizona-Kansas would be epic for men's basketball.

Kansas and its 24,000 football crowds is not as much of an issue from the PAC perspective when you've got half empty stadiums around the conference. Oklahoma can more than make up for it because they can deliver fans (in the stands and bring fans out) across the league.

In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

That alignment isn't going to get enough votes from the current members.
05-09-2017 05:19 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:57 PM)AntiG Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not really, in a hypothetical OU and UT to the B1G Oklahoma would be battling long time rivals Texas, Nebraska and new rivals Iowa and Wisconsin for western division supremacy and end up facing Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, etc for the conference championship. The conference potentially could push for a four team conference playoff with this as well.

It happens.

The Big 8 was a Nebraska-Oklahoma dominated conference. B12 happened and Nebraska hat to take a backseat to the Texas schools.

OU will never be as important to the B1G as it is to the B12. Both academically where its step up from the OSU's, Kansas State's and the Texas Techs of the conference but also on the football field where they wouldn't be the top property.

Put OU in the PAC and they would be along with USC one of the Top 2 football properties in the conference. Academics would be average by PAC standards but they could see a boost in applicants from the west.

We all know California kids that don't get into a UC school from well off families will often try another P5 western option (Arizona, Colorado, Oregon). I've heard of some looking at Oklahoma that way. It's like WVU for East Coast kids, the last decent stop on the college brand train.
05-09-2017 05:20 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:51 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.



Most of those were charter members and in Mississippi the mission of the schools are very similar to those of West Virginia.

Apples and Oranges. The comparison is SEC vs B1G or P12. Inertia bias is not relevant. One does not have to leave one's home, but when one does they prefer to move in with the more compatible group.

SEC perception among faculty is a real issue. 3 of 4 R2 public Universities in P5 are in the SEC. The Big 12 did have steady subtle pressure ( most from Texas) which resulted in Kansas State, Texas Tech, and West Virginia investing to attain R1 status. That has not happened in the SEC.

The solution for the SEC is for a member (Kentucky is the closest) to make AAU and to push the Alabama and Mississippi school to get serious about their research rankings. So far it's all about being Southerners and continuing the stereotype that Southerners rank education lower than sports. That is the choice the SEC is making.

Stugray, your bias in relatively uninformed and relies heavily upon stereotypes and academia. Most of the issues down here have to do with initiatives within the states. Some issues, are structural in nature like that of Alabama and Georgia which mirror the issues of Nebraska but with a nuance. UAB became the medical research facility that is now independent. Georgia and Georgia Tech have their disciplines but the medical college is located in Augusta as a separate state entity "The Medical College of Georgia". Lop off those medical research funds from those two universities and it drops the research dollars of the state more efficiently upon a stand alone institution but deprives the state schools of the opportunity to have claimed those endeavors no matter what support they may be offering or not offering, in support of those stand alone medical schools. At Auburn we have cancer research that is done but since it falls under the auspices of veterinary medicine, even though the tests are used in human cancer research, the funding for them doesn't go toward AAU status.

To say the schools aren't trying is misinformed to disingenuous at best and has overtones of arrogance implied at worst. Some of these divisions of disciplines were mandated during reconstruction and need to be rewritten. But that's our fault for not bringing state constitutions up to speed.

I don't think given the current quality of diploma mill output from many of these state schools that any of our conferences have anything to crow about with regard to undergraduate preparation, and since the top students tend to gravitate to those fields that have research associated with them I wouldn't find fault with as many of our postgraduates. We didn't urbanize as quickly as the North. So every one of our states still have agricultural schools, vet schools, degrees in wood technology, etc.

It is an apples and oranges comparison. Our AAU, R1 & R2, and other such ranking services have only come into to vogue in the latter half of my life. As far as I can tell the biggest reason, outside of acquiring grants for research, for having these rankings is so that schools can justify higher tuition and attract enrollment and with regard to faculty it means more money for them. So the credentialing that you see in all work fields today is simply to force people to buy a piece of paper. The number of incompetent paper holders is staggering. Most of the hype has been to push the agenda of more bureaucratized education and every day in our workplaces we behold the woeful by product of that approach to education.

So color me unimpressed with your views. I'm sure they matter to you, but I've lived long enough to see both the good and bad that they are used to support or cloak.

When students with a masters degree from Big 10, ACC, SEC, and B12 schools show up for professional level training and can't add or subtract without a calculator, can't spell, can't properly cite sources, or in many cases compose a complete paragraph, you can't impress me with any of this. Show me a school that consistently puts out graduates with masters degrees that can read, write, add, subtract, and communicate effectively and I'll give them whatever ranking they want.

There is only one upper echelon of education in this country and it won't be found in the Big 10, SEC, PAC (except possibly with Stanford), Big 12 or ACC (except possibly with Duke). If you aren't Ivy, or a Cal Tech or MIT grad you are just fighting for upper middle class status. And there is no snobbery like Middle Class snobbery anywhere.

And as far as history goes, check your own curfew laws circa 1955-1972 in Michigan, Ohio, Illinois and other Northern heart of the Big 10 states. You will find laws on the books which were being enforced that would not permit African Americans to be found within the city limit at sunset. I know. I live there then.

Then research the riots in Pontiac & Boston that took place after busing had already been forced in the South. What you stereotype as unique to the South lasted a lot longer in the North.

Now sport, have a good one.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 08:06 PM by JRsec.)
05-09-2017 05:24 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:57 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:51 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.

Most of those were charter members and in Mississippi the mission of the schools are very similar to those of West Virginia.

Apples and Oranges. The comparison is SEC vs B1G or P12. Inertia bias is not relevant. One does not have to leave one's home, but when one does they prefer to move in with the more compatible group.

SEC perception among faculty is a real issue. 3 of 4 R2 public Universities in P5 are in the SEC. The Big 12 did have steady subtle pressure ( most from Texas) which resulted in Kansas State, Texas Tech, and West Virginia investing to attain R1 status. That has not happened in the SEC.

The solution for the SEC is for a member (Kentucky is the closest) to make AAU and to push the Alabama and Mississippi school to get serious about their research rankings. So far it's all about being Southerners and continuing the stereotype that Southerners rank education lower than sports. That is the choice the SEC is making.

This is a tired line.

Not all schools specialize in the same types of academic areas and not all research is dollar intensive.

For instance, Alabama's most respected program is accounting, which is elite, but how much in the way of research dollars go into accounting?

Your metric is a crude attempt at a one size fits all that at its core is rather, well, stupid and not reflective of how schools compare themselves to one another.

The larger point is that by any reasonable metric, OU as a research institution would rank, at best, somewhere in the middle of the SEC. If OU people feel academically superior to the SEC, they have no reasonable basis for that feeling.
05-09-2017 05:33 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I like these PAC-14 divisions.

North: Stanford, USC, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Utah
South: USC, UCLA, Arizona, ASU, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas

OU and USC would be a big national game. Colorado gets OU and KU back on the schedule rivals from the Big 8.

UCLA-Arizona-Kansas would be epic for men's basketball.

Kansas and its 24,000 football crowds is not as much of an issue from the PAC perspective when you've got half empty stadiums around the conference. Oklahoma can more than make up for it because they can deliver fans (in the stands and bring fans out) across the league.

In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not quite. They could dominate the west division playing a big name CCG every year not like in the Big XII where they would always play a low ranked or NR team. If KU comes along that division is very much like the old Big 8.

OU, KU, NU, Iowa, Minny, Wisc, Ill & NW. Thats the great plains and upper mid-west. Replace Colorado with Chicago.
05-09-2017 05:35 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 05:20 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:57 PM)AntiG Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not really, in a hypothetical OU and UT to the B1G Oklahoma would be battling long time rivals Texas, Nebraska and new rivals Iowa and Wisconsin for western division supremacy and end up facing Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, etc for the conference championship. The conference potentially could push for a four team conference playoff with this as well.

It happens.

The Big 8 was a Nebraska-Oklahoma dominated conference. B12 happened and Nebraska hat to take a backseat to the Texas schools.

OU will never be as important to the B1G as it is to the B12. Both academically where its step up from the OSU's, Kansas State's and the Texas Techs of the conference but also on the football field where they wouldn't be the top property.

Put OU in the PAC and they would be along with USC one of the Top 2 football properties in the conference. Academics would be average by PAC standards but they could see a boost in applicants from the west.

We all know California kids that don't get into a UC school from well off families will often try another P5 western option (Arizona, Colorado, Oregon). I've heard of some looking at Oklahoma that way. It's like WVU for East Coast kids, the last decent stop on the college brand train.

You know how I know you have never been to Norman, OK? Comparing Norman with SLC, Tuscon, and Boulder is nuts. A rich California kid would turn pale after a visit there unless they were specifically into refinery's, strip malls, chain restaurants, Toby Keith, and of course OU football. For further examples, see Lincoln, NE and Aimes, IA. Austin is a whole different deal though, the hippy culture there could pull in a few Cali kids.
05-09-2017 05:36 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:17 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 12:39 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I've said it for a very long time, the natural place for OU is right where it is at.

A move to any other league is a bad long term proposition for OU.

B12 1.0 was a perfect fit for OU. It was a very nice conference.

B12 2.0 I think is fine but ESPN probably can't afford to give it another big contract. A big contract was questionable enough for a conference battered by membership last time around that the fact they haven't been in the national title conversation and aren't sending guys to the NFL is making it look even more questionable. Who could have predicted such a collapse of Texas?

While Texas always has the option of squeezing more money from the LHN, Oklahoma would have to endure the full impact of a TV revenue paycut.

Ironically it was Oklahoma who started this mess by suing the NCAA in the 80's over their monopoly on TV revenue. Now they are the ones getting squeezed.

Big XII .5 was the perfect conference for Oklahoma (and Nebraska). The Big 8 would take on only Texas and Texas A&M.
05-09-2017 05:36 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 05:35 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I like these PAC-14 divisions.

North: Stanford, USC, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Utah
South: USC, UCLA, Arizona, ASU, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas

OU and USC would be a big national game. Colorado gets OU and KU back on the schedule rivals from the Big 8.

UCLA-Arizona-Kansas would be epic for men's basketball.

Kansas and its 24,000 football crowds is not as much of an issue from the PAC perspective when you've got half empty stadiums around the conference. Oklahoma can more than make up for it because they can deliver fans (in the stands and bring fans out) across the league.

In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not quite. They could dominate the west division playing a big name CCG every year not like in the Big XII where they would always play a low ranked or NR team. If KU comes along that division is very much like the old Big 8.

OU, KU, NU, Iowa, Minny, Wisc, Ill & NW. Thats the great plains and upper mid-west. Replace Colorado with Chicago.

A division with those schools would be pretty solid academically and athletically. You upgrade Iowa State with Iowa and K-State with Wisconsin.
05-09-2017 05:40 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 05:40 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:35 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I like these PAC-14 divisions.

North: Stanford, USC, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Utah
South: USC, UCLA, Arizona, ASU, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas

OU and USC would be a big national game. Colorado gets OU and KU back on the schedule rivals from the Big 8.

UCLA-Arizona-Kansas would be epic for men's basketball.

Kansas and its 24,000 football crowds is not as much of an issue from the PAC perspective when you've got half empty stadiums around the conference. Oklahoma can more than make up for it because they can deliver fans (in the stands and bring fans out) across the league.

In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not quite. They could dominate the west division playing a big name CCG every year not like in the Big XII where they would always play a low ranked or NR team. If KU comes along that division is very much like the old Big 8.

OU, KU, NU, Iowa, Minny, Wisc, Ill & NW. Thats the great plains and upper mid-west. Replace Colorado with Chicago.

A division with those schools would be pretty solid academically and athletically. You upgrade Iowa State with Iowa and K-State with Wisconsin.

From where do most of Oklahoma's out-of-state students come? I would assume Texas, but is there a significant portion from the Chicago area or Kansas-Nebraska-Iowa corridor?
05-09-2017 05:58 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 05:58 PM)YNot Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:40 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:35 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I like these PAC-14 divisions.

North: Stanford, USC, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Utah
South: USC, UCLA, Arizona, ASU, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas

OU and USC would be a big national game. Colorado gets OU and KU back on the schedule rivals from the Big 8.

UCLA-Arizona-Kansas would be epic for men's basketball.

Kansas and its 24,000 football crowds is not as much of an issue from the PAC perspective when you've got half empty stadiums around the conference. Oklahoma can more than make up for it because they can deliver fans (in the stands and bring fans out) across the league.

In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not quite. They could dominate the west division playing a big name CCG every year not like in the Big XII where they would always play a low ranked or NR team. If KU comes along that division is very much like the old Big 8.

OU, KU, NU, Iowa, Minny, Wisc, Ill & NW. Thats the great plains and upper mid-west. Replace Colorado with Chicago.

A division with those schools would be pretty solid academically and athletically. You upgrade Iowa State with Iowa and K-State with Wisconsin.

From where do most of Oklahoma's out-of-state students come? I would assume Texas, but is there a significant portion from the Chicago area or Kansas-Nebraska-Iowa corridor?

https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/...diversity/

60% of the university comes from within state. The next highest area is from Texas, followed by Kansas, then California, then Missouri, then Colorado. Illinois is 6th, but the drop-off is substantial. If Oklahoma goes to the B1G without Texas, they will be joining a conference where there are zero states that they draw consistently from.
05-09-2017 06:11 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 05:36 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:20 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:57 PM)AntiG Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not really, in a hypothetical OU and UT to the B1G Oklahoma would be battling long time rivals Texas, Nebraska and new rivals Iowa and Wisconsin for western division supremacy and end up facing Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, etc for the conference championship. The conference potentially could push for a four team conference playoff with this as well.

It happens.

The Big 8 was a Nebraska-Oklahoma dominated conference. B12 happened and Nebraska hat to take a backseat to the Texas schools.

OU will never be as important to the B1G as it is to the B12. Both academically where its step up from the OSU's, Kansas State's and the Texas Techs of the conference but also on the football field where they wouldn't be the top property.

Put OU in the PAC and they would be along with USC one of the Top 2 football properties in the conference. Academics would be average by PAC standards but they could see a boost in applicants from the west.

We all know California kids that don't get into a UC school from well off families will often try another P5 western option (Arizona, Colorado, Oregon). I've heard of some looking at Oklahoma that way. It's like WVU for East Coast kids, the last decent stop on the college brand train.

You know how I know you have never been to Norman, OK? Comparing Norman with SLC, Tuscon, and Boulder is nuts. A rich California kid would turn pale after a visit there unless they were specifically into refinery's, strip malls, chain restaurants, Toby Keith, and of course OU football. For further examples, see Lincoln, NE and Aimes, IA. Austin is a whole different deal though, the hippy culture there could pull in a few Cali kids.

I've only been to Oklahoma City in Oklahoma.

The kid I knew was from Seattle (California Norte). Started at Colorado but transferred to Oklahoma because of all the pot smoking going on in Boulder.

The West Coast isn't 100% hipsters and hippies.
05-09-2017 07:16 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 06:11 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:58 PM)YNot Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:40 PM)Shox Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:35 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:27 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I like these PAC-14 divisions.

North: Stanford, USC, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Utah
South: USC, UCLA, Arizona, ASU, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas

OU and USC would be a big national game. Colorado gets OU and KU back on the schedule rivals from the Big 8.

UCLA-Arizona-Kansas would be epic for men's basketball.

Kansas and its 24,000 football crowds is not as much of an issue from the PAC perspective when you've got half empty stadiums around the conference. Oklahoma can more than make up for it because they can deliver fans (in the stands and bring fans out) across the league.

In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.

Not quite. They could dominate the west division playing a big name CCG every year not like in the Big XII where they would always play a low ranked or NR team. If KU comes along that division is very much like the old Big 8.

OU, KU, NU, Iowa, Minny, Wisc, Ill & NW. Thats the great plains and upper mid-west. Replace Colorado with Chicago.

A division with those schools would be pretty solid academically and athletically. You upgrade Iowa State with Iowa and K-State with Wisconsin.

From where do most of Oklahoma's out-of-state students come? I would assume Texas, but is there a significant portion from the Chicago area or Kansas-Nebraska-Iowa corridor?

https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/...diversity/

60% of the university comes from within state. The next highest area is from Texas, followed by Kansas, then California, then Missouri, then Colorado. Illinois is 6th, but the drop-off is substantial. If Oklahoma goes to the B1G without Texas, they will be joining a conference where there are zero states that they draw consistently from.

See..I told you so.

They don't need to worry about Texas when they have the Red River shoot out. Kansas is part of the PAC proposal so no concern there.
05-09-2017 07:20 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 05:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:57 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:51 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.

Most of those were charter members and in Mississippi the mission of the schools are very similar to those of West Virginia.

Apples and Oranges. The comparison is SEC vs B1G or P12. Inertia bias is not relevant. One does not have to leave one's home, but when one does they prefer to move in with the more compatible group.

SEC perception among faculty is a real issue. 3 of 4 R2 public Universities in P5 are in the SEC. The Big 12 did have steady subtle pressure ( most from Texas) which resulted in Kansas State, Texas Tech, and West Virginia investing to attain R1 status. That has not happened in the SEC.

The solution for the SEC is for a member (Kentucky is the closest) to make AAU and to push the Alabama and Mississippi school to get serious about their research rankings. So far it's all about being Southerners and continuing the stereotype that Southerners rank education lower than sports. That is the choice the SEC is making.

This is a tired line.

Not all schools specialize in the same types of academic areas and not all research is dollar intensive.

For instance, Alabama's most respected program is accounting, which is elite, but how much in the way of research dollars go into accounting?

Your metric is a crude attempt at a one size fits all that at its core is rather, well, stupid and not reflective of how schools compare themselves to one another.

The larger point is that by any reasonable metric, OU as a research institution would rank, at best, somewhere in the middle of the SEC. If OU people feel academically superior to the SEC, they have no reasonable basis for that feeling.

I may have misinterpreted that but I took the overall point to be that the SEC has some kind of stigma based upon this rather nebulous idea of "research," which it appears to mean pure dollars.

My point is simply that not all areas of "research" are cash intensive and thus schools with a bias towards the softer sciences and humanities will of corse appear on paper to lag behind where in reality they will have their peers within the given academic circles.
05-09-2017 07:20 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:57 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:51 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.

Most of those were charter members and in Mississippi the mission of the schools are very similar to those of West Virginia.

Apples and Oranges. The comparison is SEC vs B1G or P12. Inertia bias is not relevant. One does not have to leave one's home, but when one does they prefer to move in with the more compatible group.

SEC perception among faculty is a real issue. 3 of 4 R2 public Universities in P5 are in the SEC. The Big 12 did have steady subtle pressure ( most from Texas) which resulted in Kansas State, Texas Tech, and West Virginia investing to attain R1 status. That has not happened in the SEC.

The solution for the SEC is for a member (Kentucky is the closest) to make AAU and to push the Alabama and Mississippi school to get serious about their research rankings. So far it's all about being Southerners and continuing the stereotype that Southerners rank education lower than sports. That is the choice the SEC is making.

This is a tired line.

Not all schools specialize in the same types of academic areas and not all research is dollar intensive.

For instance, Alabama's most respected program is accounting, which is elite, but how much in the way of research dollars go into accounting?

Your metric is a crude attempt at a one size fits all that at its core is rather, well, stupid and not reflective of how schools compare themselves to one another.

A lot of kids from the Northeast are going down to SEC schools these days. Cousin dropped out of Alabama. Her brother just graduated LSU law. Both from Connecticut.

The hierarchy of educational institutions was largely set 100 years ago as Michigan and Harvard were elite so the schools in their conference received that distinction.

The BIG was the counterweight to the Ivy League with Michigan, Northwestern and the University of Chicago all in that conference. There is historical significance here.

UC schools were designed to be a B1G for California. Then the UAA schools which have always had near-Ivy status. Then you've got Florida, Texas, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke that have all reached that level. Schools with elite research faculty that in some cases are making 300,000 a year.

I would look at the average faculty salary. Ohio's I've seen and they are in a peer group with Missouri and Iowa State but run 35% less than Ohio State. The dream for a cream of the crop researcher is an Ivy, B1G, UC, UAA type school somewhere where there is openings.

In undergraduate admissions the Ivy's, MIT, Stanford, Cal Tech and others are the true upper class but for faculty the big research universities of UC system and B1G are upper class destinations.
05-09-2017 07:37 PM
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