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Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  ACC GOR gets in the way of Oklahoma plus a North Carolina B1G addition (or for that matter Florida State or Georgia Tech or Duke). That gap between the ending of the B12 and the ACC GOR is 8 years, the length of an entire media package, whether digital or cable or whatever those things look like in 2025.

Longer than that - the ACC grant of rights runs through June 2036.

But the point of my comment above is that, given that both are blue-chip basketball properties, the biggest difference between UNC and KU for expansion purposes is market reach. (Another difference is that UNC football, while often disappointing considering their resources, is not a dumpster fire.) The reason UNC isn't at the top of the list is the ACC GOR that runs into 2036.
05-09-2017 02:47 PM
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Post: #22
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:32 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:16 PM)ken d Wrote:  At some point I have to wonder if the B1G is going to be satisfied being the weakest football conference in the P5 (at least in term of on-field performance). If they aren't, and believe their brand could suffer from that perception, academic snobbery might give way to practical reality. OU isn't as different as some B1G members might think.

Well they have to be the weakest first. The B1G doesn't make emotional decisions based on a year or two results.

They have been battling the ACC for that "honor" for a while now. The two were running neck and neck until the ACC's recent surge. I agree the B1G won't (and shouldn't) make a move based on short-term results. But if they don't reverse the trend within a few years, there will be pressure to add somebody strong, and there aren't many schools left that meet that description and also could be palatable to the B1G. After OU, the list is very short.

Please, they haven't been battling it out with the ACC for the bottom. The ACC has been battling the Pac and XII for that title.

There wont be pressure to add someone strong. They are still paid more than everyone else and they sat at 11 members for 15+ years.
05-09-2017 02:49 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 02:12 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

I have no idea whether the Big Ten has a serious interest in acquiring either of those schools, but if they were more interested in UNC than KU, this would be one major reason why:

Kansas population: 2.9 million
North Carolina population: 10.1 million

Gordon Gee (Ohio State's former president) said that if they had known how reallignment would shake out, they would have added Missouri and Kansas right after adding Nebraska.

Link? Also i'm sure they are quite happy with the millions of more dollars a year Maryland and Rutgers bring to the table.
05-09-2017 02:50 PM
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YNot Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:47 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 02:38 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  ACC GOR gets in the way of Oklahoma plus a North Carolina B1G addition (or for that matter Florida State or Georgia Tech or Duke). That gap between the ending of the B12 and the ACC GOR is 8 years, the length of an entire media package, whether digital or cable or whatever those things look like in 2025.

Longer than that - the ACC grant of rights runs through June 2036.

But the point of my comment above is that, given that both are blue-chip basketball properties, the biggest difference between UNC and KU for expansion purposes is market reach. (Another difference is that UNC football, while often disappointing considering their resources, is not a dumpster fire.) The reason UNC isn't at the top of the list is the ACC GOR that runs into 2036.

Market reach is important for the conference networks, but brand-name is more important for the tier 1 media contract. Who will the average college football fans in Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, and Los Angeles watch? This is where Kansas football really hurts.

But, Kansas basketball is prime inventory that would add substantial value to any conference, even if men's basketball only delivers 15% of the media contract value. Basketball fans in Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, and Los Angeles will watch Kansas basketball, whether they are playing Texas Tech or Ole Miss or Illinois.
05-09-2017 02:53 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 02:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 02:12 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

I have no idea whether the Big Ten has a serious interest in acquiring either of those schools, but if they were more interested in UNC than KU, this would be one major reason why:

Kansas population: 2.9 million
North Carolina population: 10.1 million

Gordon Gee (Ohio State's former president) said that if they had known how reallignment would shake out, they would have added Missouri and Kansas right after adding Nebraska.

Link? Also i'm sure they are quite happy with the millions of more dollars a year Maryland and Rutgers bring to the table.

"During the meeting, Gee also said he thought it was a mistake not to include Missouri and Kansas in earlier Big Ten expansion plans. Missouri has since joined the SEC."

http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...-catholics
05-09-2017 02:53 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:53 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 02:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 02:22 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 02:12 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

I have no idea whether the Big Ten has a serious interest in acquiring either of those schools, but if they were more interested in UNC than KU, this would be one major reason why:

Kansas population: 2.9 million
North Carolina population: 10.1 million

Gordon Gee (Ohio State's former president) said that if they had known how reallignment would shake out, they would have added Missouri and Kansas right after adding Nebraska.

Link? Also i'm sure they are quite happy with the millions of more dollars a year Maryland and Rutgers bring to the table.

"During the meeting, Gee also said he thought it was a mistake not to include Missouri and Kansas in earlier Big Ten expansion plans. Missouri has since joined the SEC."

http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...-catholics

That doesn't mean the conference would have added those teams. That means Gee wanted to add those teams. Big difference. Delany had a different idea. Guess which one still has a say in the matter?
05-09-2017 02:55 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 12:48 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 12:32 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 12:29 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  http://newsok.com/berry-tramel-would-the...um=twitter

"OU in the Big Ten doesn't sound right.

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. Those are schools that have little in common with the Sooners. Culturally. Geographically. Historically. Frankly, outside Nebraska (an epic rivalry) and Iowa (Bob Stoops), there's little linking OU to the Big Ten.

But as I wrote the other day, if the Sooners ever leave the Big 12, the Big Ten would be the destination of choice."

If you have to sell it then it's not a natural fit.

I think it's overstating it. Oklahoma is arguably a more natural fit in the Big Ten than Rutgers was to the B1G a few years ago or Missouri was to the SEC or pretty much every realignment move over the past several years with the exception of maybe Texas A&M to the SEC (which made perfect sense). Even within Tramel's piece, he's conflating "fit" with "history". Those are two different things. Oklahoma has little history with many Big Ten schools, but it's wrong to say that they don't fit (as a large public flagship school with a huge football and athletics program).

That's an apt distinction. If OU wants to move to the Big 10 then selling it is the wrong approach. When the time comes the administration simply needs to hold alumni and donor meetings and listen first to their people, ascertain what the sentiments of the majority may be, and then play the hand that will explain what the administration wants to do and why they need to do it.
05-09-2017 03:00 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
JRsec,

The one that counts is Boren. He will decide. The people the President most has to keep happy are the faculty. And no question they would prefer the B1G or Pac-12. Faculty at Nebraska popped the champagne with the announcement, because it meant the academic future of the school we secure. (This is the biggest problem the SEC has, not fans but faculty opposition)

Missouri's entire dance with the SEC and it's going through the motions with the B1G was all about convincing the faculty that the B1G was not in the cards and that the SEC is where they have to go. Everyone in the Big XII was convinced before June 2010 that Missouri was going to the SEC. So what held it up? The faculty senate folks.
05-09-2017 03:07 PM
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Post: #29
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
I think Berry has been reading this board. :-)

Some form of the B12 would be the ideal, if OU could generate a nationally competitive amount of revenue and compete for national championships in football. Our history and rivals are here. The revenue is good, for now. Through three years of the CFP, we're 1 for 3 in making the playoff, and we were fortunate to be in a position to be waxed by Clemson in 2015. As we move through the CFP era, I believe the B12 will be left out more often than not, exacerbating the slide in prestige, leading to a drop in quality of recruits and a continued drop in NFL draft picks. Perception is 9/10 of reality, and the perception of the B12 is currently a joke.

The current leadership at OU would crawl on their hands and knees to the B1G. They would love everything about it: academic status, athletics, money. Donors are split between the B1G and SEC. I personally would prefer the SEC, but would be fine with the B1G.

I'm not sure if the current administration will be around to make this decision. President Boren will retire in the next few years. All bets are off with a new administration.

I think we'll continue to hash through this topic for at least the next 5 years. The grant of rights is a huge handcuff. The B1G and SEC TV contracts expire in 2023, and the B12 grant of rights expires in 2025. By 2023, the cost of exiting the grant of rights will be much less, and there will most likely be a new administration at OU.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 03:32 PM by johnintx.)
05-09-2017 03:17 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 12:59 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Yes the Big Ten would take them in a heartbeat. Think back to the Big 8 days when Oklahoma was part of a league that ran from Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, into Oklahoma. Essentially OU and KU to the B1G recreates that Big 8 with the West Division, substituting Iowa for Iowa State, and Illinois for Missouri. Then there is the FOX networks angle, as both are affiliated.

There is no more sales pitch IMO than Kansas (and OU) to the SEC, where the West would be a semi-recreation of the best of the Big XII/SWC with Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M and Arkansas together. Neither the B1G nor the SEC in those configurations look like pure Union or Confederacy anyway. Both would have a distinct Great Plains element.

Conferences in the push to have more influence are pushing beyond the boundaries of their original geographic names. The B1G has three Eastern and one Great Plains school not in Chicago's orbit. The SEC would move firmly into the Great Plains with an expansion of Kansas and Oklahoma.The Pac-12 might yet move into the central time zone. And the ACC is made up of almost half ex-Big East Schools, running from Boston to upstate New York and not far from Chicago in northern Indiana.

Oklahoma ranks almost identical to Nebraska and is a bigger brand name. Frankly that brand name is the selling point.

What about the AAU?
05-09-2017 03:24 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 03:07 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

The one that counts is Boren. He will decide. The people the President most has to keep happy are the faculty. And no question they would prefer the B1G or Pac-12. Faculty at Nebraska popped the champagne with the announcement, because it meant the academic future of the school we secure. (This is the biggest problem the SEC has, not fans but faculty opposition)

Missouri's entire dance with the SEC and it's going through the motions with the B1G was all about convincing the faculty that the B1G was not in the cards and that the SEC is where they have to go. Everyone in the Big XII was convinced before June 2010 that Missouri was going to the SEC. So what held it up? The faculty senate folks.

Sounds like urban legends. Why would the faculties at these schools care which sports conference the university schools participate in? It's not like conference affiliation has any bearing on who the faculty at OU and Mizzou can and cannot collaborate with on research projects. These universities departments rise and fall based on what the faculty are doing, what connections they have with peers, what kinds of research they do and how well they can sell ideas to obtain research grants.
05-09-2017 03:35 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
Barry Trammel had this in his article:
Quote:My Big Ten professor says that OU and Nebraska are “virtually identical” academically. I don't know if that's true. But the professor said that if Big Ten presidents “view Nebraska, with their level of academics, as someone with whom they wish to associate, I cannot imagine why Oklahoma would not be a school that they would welcome.”

Read this letter Barry Trammel printed in 2015 from a Professor
http://newsok.com/article/5436874
05-09-2017 03:54 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 03:07 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

The one that counts is Boren. He will decide. The people the President most has to keep happy are the faculty. And no question they would prefer the B1G or Pac-12. Faculty at Nebraska popped the champagne with the announcement, because it meant the academic future of the school we secure. (This is the biggest problem the SEC has, not fans but faculty opposition)

Missouri's entire dance with the SEC and it's going through the motions with the B1G was all about convincing the faculty that the B1G was not in the cards and that the SEC is where they have to go. Everyone in the Big XII was convinced before June 2010 that Missouri was going to the SEC. So what held it up? The faculty senate folks.

Legally yes. You won the battle at Maryland and long term may have lost the war. If the donors and alums aren't on base you get a empty stadium and a larger reliance upon TV revenue. Donors and fans are the customers in this arrangement and academia screws that consideration up every time. They did at Missouri, they did at Maryland, and if they aren't careful it will happen at OU. There is already dissention there.

If the president wants to make the move fine. Then you get consensus and with more than your faculty. If they move as a unit you've gained much more than if they move with less than majority support.
05-09-2017 04:00 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 03:07 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

The one that counts is Boren. He will decide. The people the President most has to keep happy are the faculty. And no question they would prefer the B1G or Pac-12. Faculty at Nebraska popped the champagne with the announcement, because it meant the academic future of the school we secure. (This is the biggest problem the SEC has, not fans but faculty opposition)

Missouri's entire dance with the SEC and it's going through the motions with the B1G was all about convincing the faculty that the B1G was not in the cards and that the SEC is where they have to go. Everyone in the Big XII was convinced before June 2010 that Missouri was going to the SEC. So what held it up? The faculty senate folks.

BTW: Boren just had open heart surgery last week. So if you are counting on him you had better hurry!
05-09-2017 04:03 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 03:35 PM)miko33 Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 03:07 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

The one that counts is Boren. He will decide. The people the President most has to keep happy are the faculty. And no question they would prefer the B1G or Pac-12. Faculty at Nebraska popped the champagne with the announcement, because it meant the academic future of the school we secure. (This is the biggest problem the SEC has, not fans but faculty opposition)

Missouri's entire dance with the SEC and it's going through the motions with the B1G was all about convincing the faculty that the B1G was not in the cards and that the SEC is where they have to go. Everyone in the Big XII was convinced before June 2010 that Missouri was going to the SEC. So what held it up? The faculty senate folks.

Sounds like urban legends. Why would the faculties at these schools care which sports conference the university schools participate in? It's not like conference affiliation has any bearing on who the faculty at OU and Mizzou can and cannot collaborate with on research projects. These universities departments rise and fall based on what the faculty are doing, what connections they have with peers, what kinds of research they do and how well they can sell ideas to obtain research grants.

Salaries to retain the talent is important.

OU and Mizzou aren't getting the research faculty in the door the way you'll find at a B1G schools which really drop money on faculty. B1G schools are competing against the top research schools in the country (UC's, Ivy's, UAA's) for faculty.
05-09-2017 04:03 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 01:25 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The people suggesting OU doesn't fit the B1G are SEC fans claiming OU is "kinda" confederacy. They are Great Plains. sure Southerners made up a good chunk of the settlers, but first generation European immigrants made up the majority. There were never slave plantations there. There are no complaints coming from B1G people. Trammel is incorrect in this, just as he is in AAU being an absolute requirement. (R1 Carnegie and inside the top 10% of research schools is, an OU meets that).

We might consider Kansas, but OU is our focus, but it has nothing to do with the Old South. It has everything to do with our % of share in the DFW market without having to take another Texas school. With Arkansas, A&M and OU the SEC would have a strong % of viewers in DFW plus the state of Oklahoma. It is about efficiency. We could gain the same thing with Texas, but wouldn't be adding a state.

Kansas has issues. Averaging 24,000 for home football games is a wet towel in the face to the SEC. Basketball would be a huge plus but basketball is only 15% of our total revenue from sports.

I agree about extending conference footprints beyond old geographical boundaries. Certainly Maryland and Rutgers and Missouri and somewhat A&M have done that for the Big 10 and SEC.

I don't know where this will wind up but right now I see more advantages to 18 than to 16 and not as many at 20. The geography in the SEC is such that 18 would actually allow us to break into 3 divisions of 6. That not only makes most of your non revenue schedule local, but provides for some very tight groupings where the schools in the divisions have ample ties to one another.
05-09-2017 04:14 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.
05-09-2017 04:15 PM
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Post: #38
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 12:39 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  I've said it for a very long time, the natural place for OU is right where it is at.

A move to any other league is a bad long term proposition for OU.

B12 1.0 was a perfect fit for OU. It was a very nice conference.

B12 2.0 I think is fine but ESPN probably can't afford to give it another big contract. A big contract was questionable enough for a conference battered by membership last time around that the fact they haven't been in the national title conversation and aren't sending guys to the NFL is making it look even more questionable. Who could have predicted such a collapse of Texas?

While Texas always has the option of squeezing more money from the LHN, Oklahoma would have to endure the full impact of a TV revenue paycut.

Ironically it was Oklahoma who started this mess by suing the NCAA in the 80's over their monopoly on TV revenue. Now they are the ones getting squeezed.
05-09-2017 04:17 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  JRsec,

OU will still appoint a research minded President. And the SEC will still have an academic perception problem with faculty.

I don't think it is entirely fair as there are some outstanding academic schools in the SEC. But the SEC has not made it a point, nor put any pressure on schools in the league who are not performing well academically and in research to step up their game.

So I see the SEC academic perception issue as a fixable internal problem. But so far little has been done to address it.

Most of those were charter members and in Mississippi the mission of the schools are very similar to those of West Virginia.
05-09-2017 04:23 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
I like these PAC-14 divisions.

North: Stanford, USC, Oregon, OSU, Washington, WSU, Utah
South: USC, UCLA, Arizona, ASU, Colorado, Oklahoma, Kansas

OU and USC would be a big national game. Colorado gets OU and KU back on the schedule rivals from the Big 8.

UCLA-Arizona-Kansas would be epic for men's basketball.

Kansas and its 24,000 football crowds is not as much of an issue from the PAC perspective when you've got half empty stadiums around the conference. Oklahoma can more than make up for it because they can deliver fans (in the stands and bring fans out) across the league.

In the B1G you'll be permanent second fiddle to Michiagn-Ohio St playing in that conference, IMO.
05-09-2017 04:27 PM
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