This stuff makes me sick. Just like so many were gleefully pushing Tarik, Joe, CC, the Bartons, Shaq, Austin etc etc under the bus to protect Josh and try to deny the fact that he was the problem, everywhere I look there are comments and even a thread or two about how Memphis kids are a headache, all looking for a payout, have handlers all with a hand out, are overrated, etc etc.

Maybe before you paint with such a broad negative brush the entire high school basketball scene in the same city as the University you support, you should stop to ask yourself

1) is it fair to lump everyone together because of one or two examples you can think of?

2) is it becoming of me to impugn a bunch of high school athletes I've never met?

3) what am I even trying to achieve by doing this?

A fair point.

But I don't think people are raising these concerns "to protect Tubby" (or Pastner).

I do think it's possible to have concerns about the preps hoop culture around Memphis without throwing the KIDS under the bus. In most cases there's nothing wrong with the players themselves. They often thrive at other schools.

Getting local talent to thrive at the U of M has been challenging in the last 10 or 15 years, however. I think we would all like to see that change.

But either you believe this is a string of coincidences, or you believe that there might be some underlying issue.

To be fair, KJ did it to himself

(04-15-2017 12:51 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  A fair point.

But I don't think people are raising these concerns "to protect Tubby" (or Pastner).

I do think it's possible to have concerns about the preps hoop culture around Memphis without throwing the KIDS under the bus. In most cases there's nothing wrong with the players themselves. They often thrive at other schools.

Getting local talent to thrive at the U of M has been challenging in the last 10 or 15 years, however. I think we would all like to see that change.

But either you believe this is a string of coincidences, or you believe that there might be some underlying issue.

There are examples that stick in everybody's mind like the Lawsons so there is recency bias

But make a list of all Memphis kids with issues and without issues and I bet the list of kids without issues is waaay longer

And it's not like this is a Memphis issue, it's more an issue of highly ranked players everywhere. It's not the city, it's the fact that we produce more high level talent than a lot of other places so the problem seems geographical.

(04-15-2017 12:56 PM)tigerjamesc Wrote:  To be fair, KJ did it to himself

True. Not defending KJ. But because he's a knucklehead it doesn't mean the other Lawson kids are, or some 2019 SG from Hamilton or whatever

(04-15-2017 12:51 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  A fair point.

But I don't think people are raising these concerns "to protect Tubby" (or Pastner).

I do think it's possible to have concerns about the preps hoop culture around Memphis without throwing the KIDS under the bus. In most cases there's nothing wrong with the players themselves. They often thrive at other schools.

Getting local talent to thrive at the U of M has been challenging in the last 10 or 15 years, however. I think we would all like to see that change.

But either you believe this is a string of coincidences, or you believe that there might be some underlying issue.

The issue to me is grown men using teens to make them feel better about themselves to the point that character doesn't matter.

I've seen the AAU circuit up close. I've seen kids walk out in the middle of a game, come back later for the next game the same day and start the game after cussing the coach and walking out the game before. Not all, but many coaches don't hold players accountable in that environment.

The kids learn early if they're good, they'll be coddled can get away with almost anything. If the coach makes a stand, then they are on to the next AAU team

I'd love to have Alex Lomax for 2018...he seems like a good kid and a great baller.

(04-15-2017 12:58 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 12:51 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  A fair point.

But I don't think people are raising these concerns "to protect Tubby" (or Pastner).

I do think it's possible to have concerns about the preps hoop culture around Memphis without throwing the KIDS under the bus. In most cases there's nothing wrong with the players themselves. They often thrive at other schools.

Getting local talent to thrive at the U of M has been challenging in the last 10 or 15 years, however. I think we would all like to see that change.

But either you believe this is a string of coincidences, or you believe that there might be some underlying issue.

There are examples that stick in everybody's mind like the Lawsons so there is recency bias

But make a list of all Memphis kids with issues and without issues and I bet the list of kids without issues is waaay longer

And it's not like this is a Memphis issue, it's more an issue of highly ranked players everywhere. It's not the city, it's the fact that we produce more high level talent than a lot of other places so the problem seems geographical.

To be clear-- highly rated recruits are whom I'm talking about. The Jake McDowells of the world do just fine here.

But a few days ago, I mentally tried to make those two lists. I focused on prospects that were ranked in the top 75 or so coming out of high school, since the year 2000.

I thought of two local kids (and one of those was borderline) who you could say were "without issues". And one of those definitely argued with the coach, and you could say did not play up to full potential. I thought of a third who did pretty well here and was without drama to my recollection, but who might not have been ranked quite that high (I don't remember). I kept trying and drawing blanks. I didn't do actual research, so I'm sure I overlooked a few.

But making the other list was, regrettably, substantially easier. I see your point about recency bias with the Lawsons, but it's not hard to think about Memphis recruits who struggled to meet expectations going back to Calipari's tenure here. And there were certainly more than a handful under Pastner, which... you can blame Pastner if you want. Maybe you're right.

But I'm starting to give the side-eye. I'd hate to see us mis-diagnose the issue and run off coach after coach after coach with no improvement to show for it.

If anything....Pastner's failings had more to do with him either being unwilling or unable to deal with these kid's attitudes. By not being able to nip it in the bud...those bad apple kids had time to infect teammates with their nonsense...and spread it like a virus.

(04-15-2017 01:09 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 12:58 PM)jgardne Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 12:51 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  A fair point.

But I don't think people are raising these concerns "to protect Tubby" (or Pastner).

I do think it's possible to have concerns about the preps hoop culture around Memphis without throwing the KIDS under the bus. In most cases there's nothing wrong with the players themselves. They often thrive at other schools.

Getting local talent to thrive at the U of M has been challenging in the last 10 or 15 years, however. I think we would all like to see that change.

But either you believe this is a string of coincidences, or you believe that there might be some underlying issue.

There are examples that stick in everybody's mind like the Lawsons so there is recency bias

But make a list of all Memphis kids with issues and without issues and I bet the list of kids without issues is waaay longer

And it's not like this is a Memphis issue, it's more an issue of highly ranked players everywhere. It's not the city, it's the fact that we produce more high level talent than a lot of other places so the problem seems geographical.

To be clear-- highly rated recruits are whom I'm talking about. The Jake McDowells of the world do just fine here.

But a few days ago, I mentally tried to make those two lists. I focused on prospects that were ranked in the top 75 or so coming out of high school, since the year 2000.

I thought of two local kids (and one of those was borderline) who you could say were "without issues". And one of those definitely argued with the coach, and you could say did not play up to full potential. I thought of a third who did pretty well here and was without drama to my recollection, but who might not have been ranked quite that high (I don't remember). I kept trying and drawing blanks. I didn't do actual research, so I'm sure I overlooked a few.

But making the other list was, regrettably, substantially easier. I see your point about recency bias with the Lawsons, but it's not hard to think about Memphis recruits who struggled to meet expectations going back to Calipari's tenure here. And there were certainly more than a handful under Pastner, which... you can blame Pastner if you want. Maybe you're right.

But I'm starting to give the side-eye. I'd hate to see us mis-diagnose the issue and run off coach after coach after coach with no improvement to show for it.

Welp. We could also cast a glance in the direction of the people making the hires.

(04-15-2017 01:00 PM)tigerjamesc Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 12:51 PM)NJ1 Wrote:  A fair point.

But I don't think people are raising these concerns "to protect Tubby" (or Pastner).

I do think it's possible to have concerns about the preps hoop culture around Memphis without throwing the KIDS under the bus. In most cases there's nothing wrong with the players themselves. They often thrive at other schools.

Getting local talent to thrive at the U of M has been challenging in the last 10 or 15 years, however. I think we would all like to see that change.

But either you believe this is a string of coincidences, or you believe that there might be some underlying issue.

The issue to me is grown men using teens to make them feel better about themselves to the point that character doesn't matter.

I've seen the AAU circuit up close. I've seen kids walk out in the middle of a game, come back later for the next game the same day and start the game after cussing the coach and walking out the game before. Not all, but many coaches don't hold players accountable in that environment.

The kids learn early if they're good, they'll be coddled can get away with almost anything. If the coach makes a stand, then they are on to the next AAU team

I agree 100%.

This isn't just about Memphis kids. Tubby mentioned early that he doesn't keep working kids that show little interest. Take DJ Jeffries. His dad said Tubby wasn't aggressive enough. He wants to be coddled, twittered, texted, called, constantly so it shows he's wanted. An official visit, scholarship offer, and the chance to be a hometown hero just isn't enough. The kid wasn't coming here anyway, so I agree with Tubby, keep the offer open but focus elsewhere.

Pastner was the best at this kind of thing. He signed them, but when things didn't go their way, they wanted out. The next year we start over again, filling openings again. The problem was none of the guys had "one and done" talent.

I'm not sure what the happy medium is with recruiting. You do have to show interest (go to games, keep in contact with them and their coaches, etc), but this constant affirmation stuff seems a bit much. In the end, maybe it's better to find hungry players than coddled teens.

So how does NC or Kentucky deal with it? They don't have to beg and coddle kids to go there. They'll just sign the next guy (another top 20 guy). If you become a pest, you are benched or cast off.

Again, this isn't just Memphis guys.

This isn't on Tubby. This is on the Lawsons. Josh didn't want to make the deal but he was told he had to do so.

Keelon asked for a raise when Tubby came in. Just to ensure his kids would stay and his other kids would sign.

KJ was a particularly troubled kid. Flipping double fingers and saying eff Tubby on his way out.

Josh didn't want the package deal and Tubby got fed up with it. At some point, it's not the coaches. It's the Lawsons.

(04-15-2017 01:08 PM)UofMemphis Wrote:  I'd love to have Alex Lomax for 2018...he seems like a good kid and a great baller.

This^^^

Memphis players can be managed...

Lawsons were a special case and it had little to do with them being from Memphis it had everything to do with their dad being on the staff and dad being unhappy and wanting to leave.

(04-15-2017 01:47 PM)TOGC Wrote:  This isn't on Tubby. This is on the Lawsons. Josh didn't want to make the deal but he was told he had to do so.

Keelon asked for a raise when Tubby came in. Just to ensure his kids would stay and his other kids would sign.

KJ was a particularly troubled kid. Flipping double fingers and saying eff Tubby on his way out.

Josh didn't want the package deal and Tubby got fed up with it. At some point, it's not the coaches. It's the Lawsons.

According to Tubby, he was suprised they left and he went to meet with the family to talk them into staying. Where this alternative fact of "Tubby got fed up with it" and some people saying "Tubby ran them off" came from, I have yet to figure out.

(04-15-2017 02:05 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 01:47 PM)TOGC Wrote:  This isn't on Tubby. This is on the Lawsons. Josh didn't want to make the deal but he was told he had to do so.

Keelon asked for a raise when Tubby came in. Just to ensure his kids would stay and his other kids would sign.

KJ was a particularly troubled kid. Flipping double fingers and saying eff Tubby on his way out.

Josh didn't want the package deal and Tubby got fed up with it. At some point, it's not the coaches. It's the Lawsons.

According to Tubby, he was suprised they left and he went to meet with the family to talk them into staying. Where this alternative fact of "Tubby got fed up with it" and some people saying "Tubby ran them off" came from, I have yet to figure out.

Joe Esposito tweeted this the day after the Lawsons committed to Kansas:

Joe Esposito‏ @Coach_JEsposito Apr 11


Winning teams have the least amount of distractions. They have a really tight group working towards the same common goal.



Coincidence? Maybe.

(04-15-2017 02:08 PM)TOGC Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 02:05 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 01:47 PM)TOGC Wrote:  This isn't on Tubby. This is on the Lawsons. Josh didn't want to make the deal but he was told he had to do so.

Keelon asked for a raise when Tubby came in. Just to ensure his kids would stay and his other kids would sign.

KJ was a particularly troubled kid. Flipping double fingers and saying eff Tubby on his way out.

Josh didn't want the package deal and Tubby got fed up with it. At some point, it's not the coaches. It's the Lawsons.

According to Tubby, he was suprised they left and he went to meet with the family to talk them into staying. Where this alternative fact of "Tubby got fed up with it" and some people saying "Tubby ran them off" came from, I have yet to figure out.

Joe Esposito tweeted this the day after the Lawsons committed to Kansas:

Joe Esposito‏ @Coach_JEsposito Apr 11


Winning teams have the least amount of distractions. They have a really tight group working towards the same common goal.



Coincidence? Maybe.

Are you saying Tubby was lying then? I mean, it came straight from Tubby's mouth.

(04-15-2017 02:05 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 01:47 PM)TOGC Wrote:  This isn't on Tubby. This is on the Lawsons. Josh didn't want to make the deal but he was told he had to do so.

Keelon asked for a raise when Tubby came in. Just to ensure his kids would stay and his other kids would sign.

KJ was a particularly troubled kid. Flipping double fingers and saying eff Tubby on his way out.

Josh didn't want the package deal and Tubby got fed up with it. At some point, it's not the coaches. It's the Lawsons.

According to Tubby, he was suprised they left and he went to meet with the family to talk them into staying. Where this alternative fact of "Tubby got fed up with it" and some people saying "Tubby ran them off" came from, I have yet to figure out.

I was wondering the same thing. It's a nice narrative but doesn't match what Tubby said.

(04-15-2017 02:10 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 02:08 PM)TOGC Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 02:05 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 01:47 PM)TOGC Wrote:  This isn't on Tubby. This is on the Lawsons. Josh didn't want to make the deal but he was told he had to do so.

Keelon asked for a raise when Tubby came in. Just to ensure his kids would stay and his other kids would sign.

KJ was a particularly troubled kid. Flipping double fingers and saying eff Tubby on his way out.

Josh didn't want the package deal and Tubby got fed up with it. At some point, it's not the coaches. It's the Lawsons.

According to Tubby, he was suprised they left and he went to meet with the family to talk them into staying. Where this alternative fact of "Tubby got fed up with it" and some people saying "Tubby ran them off" came from, I have yet to figure out.

Joe Esposito tweeted this the day after the Lawsons committed to Kansas:

Joe Esposito‏ @Coach_JEsposito Apr 11


Winning teams have the least amount of distractions. They have a really tight group working towards the same common goal.



Coincidence? Maybe.

Are you saying Tubby was lying then? I mean, it came straight from Tubby's mouth.

Sorry your ol' boy Keelon got put in the corner. Maybe Kipp will work out for him.

If not, maybe Taco Bell or McDonalds. Both hiring ex DBOs. Experience not necessary.

(04-15-2017 02:22 PM)memtiger1987 Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 02:10 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 02:08 PM)TOGC Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 02:05 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(04-15-2017 01:47 PM)TOGC Wrote:  This isn't on Tubby. This is on the Lawsons. Josh didn't want to make the deal but he was told he had to do so.

Keelon asked for a raise when Tubby came in. Just to ensure his kids would stay and his other kids would sign.

KJ was a particularly troubled kid. Flipping double fingers and saying eff Tubby on his way out.

Josh didn't want the package deal and Tubby got fed up with it. At some point, it's not the coaches. It's the Lawsons.

According to Tubby, he was suprised they left and he went to meet with the family to talk them into staying. Where this alternative fact of "Tubby got fed up with it" and some people saying "Tubby ran them off" came from, I have yet to figure out.

Joe Esposito tweeted this the day after the Lawsons committed to Kansas:

Joe Esposito‏ @Coach_JEsposito Apr 11


Winning teams have the least amount of distractions. They have a really tight group working towards the same common goal.



Coincidence? Maybe.

Are you saying Tubby was lying then? I mean, it came straight from Tubby's mouth.

Sorry your ol' boy Keelon got put in the corner. Maybe Kipp will work out for him.

If not, maybe Taco Bell or McDonalds. Both hiring ex DBOs. Experience not necessary.

How is he my boy? Because of what Tubby said? Congrats, you are now on my ignore list.