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(07-29-2017 12:04 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  I think he's saying that the county is not gonna spend $100 million of public money on a new stadium for a family worth over a billion.

I am actually more willing for the government to invest $100 million with a family worth over a billion, since they are more likely to see the project through and not allow it to go bust. However, can't say I would see the need to invest the cash in any case here.

So to date there is no county plan to give FC stadium money? I am ok with a real estate tax abatement and helping with infrastructure improvements, but not much more. Linder can sell shares of the franchise/stadium to raise money.

(07-31-2017 01:36 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 12:21 PM)#41 Wrote:  Welcome to urban planning and development. The revitalization of OTR was built on the concept -- it just so happens that less people get religious about giving hipsters money to rehab condos and apartments or start new bars & restaurants and they do about stadiums. We gave taxpayer money to a sex toy company to build downtown (who says Cincinnati is conservative) and a medical testing company to move out to Madisonville. No one moves a finger in the private sector for large construction or big projects unless the other hand is in the taxpayer's pocket.

Me? I'm sick of paying for things I won't use (from bike trails I'll never ride on to streetcars that go nowhere) -- the government is just going to waste this money anyway, so it may well be wasted on something I'll enjoy and use. Meanwhile, at least Uncle Carl is willing to put up over 50% of the proposed cost -- that's a nice change of pace for things around here.

I normally like these deeply cynical takes, but this is all wrong. Bike trails and the streetcar are wastes, but at the very very very very very least they are public projects. Most everyone agrees that transportation is the government's responsibility, for better or worse (I have a fondness for the anarcho-capitalist model myself, yet it's not well-regarded). But a soccer stadium? This guy was already handed a billion dollars, now he wants the taxpayers to give him $100 mil. more?

And the tax rebates used in the OTR project is a bit different than the Bengals' deal, which increased the sales tax. I surmise that Carl's son wants cash, not a tax scheme. But, in any case, the sex toy company deal was a couple hundred thousand dollars, not a hundred million--size matters (heeheeheehee). The sex toy company also put up a bunch of it's own money, as did the companies that funded 3CDC to redo OTR, so how would Carl III's paying half the cost be different?

The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

I saw today that the MLS collectively loses around $100million/year. Maybe not the wisest long term investment of public money.

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You can't keep calling him Uncle Carl. His dad was Uncle Carl.

And it's nice that Carl the Third has given a bunch of the money that his dad gave him to local charities, but what's the big benefit if he then asks for $100 mil. from taxpayers to pay for some soccer stadium? How bout he just keeps those donations and pays for his own stuff?

I can't imagine they'll want to do a TIF, will they? Also, I don't see how the city or county could raise $100 mil. to give to Lindner and it not have any effect on our taxes.

(07-31-2017 03:02 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  I saw today that the MLS collectively loses around $100million/year. Maybe not the wisest long term investment of public money.

To believe owners of most major sports, they've never once turned a dime of profit and it would collapse the sport if they had to pay a penny more to their players.

(07-31-2017 03:02 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  I saw today that the MLS collectively loses around $100million/year. Maybe not the wisest long term investment of public money.

MLS just needs to give tons of money to charities and perform extensive community service... then they can be classified as a non-profit. That's how the NFL as an organization pays no taxes, they believe in people before profits.

Right guys?

Right?

...?

(07-31-2017 03:16 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You can't keep calling him Uncle Carl. His dad was Uncle Carl.

And it's nice that Carl the Third has given a bunch of the money that his dad gave him to local charities, but what's the big benefit if he then asks for $100 mil. from taxpayers to pay for some soccer stadium? How bout he just keeps those donations and pays for his own stuff?

I can't imagine they'll want to do a TIF, will they? Also, I don't see how the city or county could raise $100 mil. to give to Lindner and it not have any effect on our taxes.

All of those donation dollars are just seed money.

The original concept of TIFs was to help blighted areas come out of the doldrums and get some economic development. Its now primarily used as a scam to help big developers and benefactors to make piles of money without all of the pesky private spending on the front end. Municipal bonds pick up the tab. Municipalities push TIFs as some magic bullet by using the "But For" test. But for the TIF gravy the project would never happen and all of the tax base in the new TIF district would never ever happen either....blah, blah, blah..

If a single tax dollar goes into this the peasants should storm the castle. And TIF dollars are still tax dollars, they are just put into pools and are just diverted into different streams that end up in the pockets of said developers and benefactors on the front end and which are used to pay off often upwards of 30 year bonds on the back end if there is ever enough of it to even pay the tab. Its the difference between raising taxes to beef up the savings account to pay for a new project and using a taxpayer backed 30 year credit card to pay for the project.

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 01:36 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 12:21 PM)#41 Wrote:  Welcome to urban planning and development. The revitalization of OTR was built on the concept -- it just so happens that less people get religious about giving hipsters money to rehab condos and apartments or start new bars & restaurants and they do about stadiums. We gave taxpayer money to a sex toy company to build downtown (who says Cincinnati is conservative) and a medical testing company to move out to Madisonville. No one moves a finger in the private sector for large construction or big projects unless the other hand is in the taxpayer's pocket.

Me? I'm sick of paying for things I won't use (from bike trails I'll never ride on to streetcars that go nowhere) -- the government is just going to waste this money anyway, so it may well be wasted on something I'll enjoy and use. Meanwhile, at least Uncle Carl is willing to put up over 50% of the proposed cost -- that's a nice change of pace for things around here.

I normally like these deeply cynical takes, but this is all wrong. Bike trails and the streetcar are wastes, but at the very very very very very least they are public projects. Most everyone agrees that transportation is the government's responsibility, for better or worse (I have a fondness for the anarcho-capitalist model myself, yet it's not well-regarded). But a soccer stadium? This guy was already handed a billion dollars, now he wants the taxpayers to give him $100 mil. more?

And the tax rebates used in the OTR project is a bit different than the Bengals' deal, which increased the sales tax. I surmise that Carl's son wants cash, not a tax scheme. But, in any case, the sex toy company deal was a couple hundred thousand dollars, not a hundred million--size matters (heeheeheehee). The sex toy company also put up a bunch of it's own money, as did the companies that funded 3CDC to redo OTR, so how would Carl III's paying half the cost be different?

The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You said a lot, but I'm going to focus only on GE...

There are 1,400 people currently working in that new GE building at The Banks. They are hiring 400 more this summer. According to GE, the average salary is $79,000. Annual payroll is expected to be $142m. GE gets to keep 85% of Cincinnati's payroll tax, which is roughly $2.5m annually at full employment. The state gave $51m credit. Property taxes were abated. GE is on the hook for 18 years.

Compare that to $100m to a soccer team in a league that is losing money. How many people will they hire?

Also, while you cite Lindner's long-standing commitment to the community, I ask how long have GE jet engines been made in Evendale? What do you suppose the economic impact of that facility is?

As a side note, GE cited the streetcar as one reason why they chose The Banks.

While I agree with your sentiment about corporate welfare, I would pick GE over soccer 100 times over and twice on Sunday.

(07-31-2017 06:36 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 01:36 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 12:21 PM)#41 Wrote:  Welcome to urban planning and development. The revitalization of OTR was built on the concept -- it just so happens that less people get religious about giving hipsters money to rehab condos and apartments or start new bars & restaurants and they do about stadiums. We gave taxpayer money to a sex toy company to build downtown (who says Cincinnati is conservative) and a medical testing company to move out to Madisonville. No one moves a finger in the private sector for large construction or big projects unless the other hand is in the taxpayer's pocket.

Me? I'm sick of paying for things I won't use (from bike trails I'll never ride on to streetcars that go nowhere) -- the government is just going to waste this money anyway, so it may well be wasted on something I'll enjoy and use. Meanwhile, at least Uncle Carl is willing to put up over 50% of the proposed cost -- that's a nice change of pace for things around here.

I normally like these deeply cynical takes, but this is all wrong. Bike trails and the streetcar are wastes, but at the very very very very very least they are public projects. Most everyone agrees that transportation is the government's responsibility, for better or worse (I have a fondness for the anarcho-capitalist model myself, yet it's not well-regarded). But a soccer stadium? This guy was already handed a billion dollars, now he wants the taxpayers to give him $100 mil. more?

And the tax rebates used in the OTR project is a bit different than the Bengals' deal, which increased the sales tax. I surmise that Carl's son wants cash, not a tax scheme. But, in any case, the sex toy company deal was a couple hundred thousand dollars, not a hundred million--size matters (heeheeheehee). The sex toy company also put up a bunch of it's own money, as did the companies that funded 3CDC to redo OTR, so how would Carl III's paying half the cost be different?

The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You said a lot, but I'm going to focus only on GE...

There are 1,400 people currently working in that new GE building at The Banks. They are hiring 400 more this summer. According to GE, the average salary is $79,000. Annual payroll is expected to be $142m. GE gets to keep 85% of Cincinnati's payroll tax, which is roughly $2.5m annually at full employment. The state gave $51m credit. Property taxes were abated. GE is on the hook for 18 years.

Compare that to $100m to a soccer team in a league that is losing money. How many people will they hire?

Also, while you cite Lindner's long-standing commitment to the community, I ask how long have GE jet engines been made in Evendale? What do you suppose the economic impact of that facility is?

As a side note, GE cited the streetcar as one reason why they chose The Banks.

While I agree with your sentiment about corporate welfare, I would pick GE over soccer 100 times over and twice on Sunday.

Well said, and as TubaCat has posted earlier, sports venues have relatively poor return on investment with regard to the amount of public money spent on them.
UC has been able to essentially rebuild 5th/3rd and greatly enhance Nippert funded largely by donations. Why don't the Lindner's do the same? Hell, just sell seat licenses. I'm sure all the super duper soccer fans in the area will snap them up like hot cakes. I can see it now, "own a part of the Bailey".

They WILL sell seat licenses but they want that revenue for themselves.

(07-31-2017 05:03 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 03:16 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You can't keep calling him Uncle Carl. His dad was Uncle Carl.

And it's nice that Carl the Third has given a bunch of the money that his dad gave him to local charities, but what's the big benefit if he then asks for $100 mil. from taxpayers to pay for some soccer stadium? How bout he just keeps those donations and pays for his own stuff?

I can't imagine they'll want to do a TIF, will they? Also, I don't see how the city or county could raise $100 mil. to give to Lindner and it not have any effect on our taxes.

All of those donation dollars are just seed money.

The original concept of TIFs was to help blighted areas come out of the doldrums and get some economic development. Its now primarily used as a scam to help big developers and benefactors to make piles of money without all of the pesky private spending on the front end. Municipal bonds pick up the tab. Municipalities push TIFs as some magic bullet by using the "But For" test. But for the TIF gravy the project would never happen and all of the tax base in the new TIF district would never ever happen either....blah, blah, blah..

If a single tax dollar goes into this the peasants should storm the castle. And TIF dollars are still tax dollars, they are just put into pools and are just diverted into different streams that end up in the pockets of said developers and benefactors on the front end and which are used to pay off often upwards of 30 year bonds on the back end if there is ever enough of it to even pay the tab. Its the difference between raising taxes to beef up the savings account to pay for a new project and using a taxpayer backed 30 year credit card to pay for the project.

Why?

I mean that as a serious question. The government pours money into the toilet and dumb project after dumb project; I could die on this hill yelling "No" to a stadium that I'd actually use and enjoy and it would make no difference because other people have no shame about digging into my pocket for things I don't want or need. My property taxes are about to skyrocket because a well-organized group has conned the city of Cincinnati into funding free preschool (despite no scholarly consensus on the actual long-term benefits of preschool).

And with the current government of Cincinnati and Hamilton County, I see no reason to expect lower taxes in the future. So, why not get mine too?

I apologize -- I stopped reading / talking about local politics for this reason. It's deeply frustrating and my attitude goes from zero to middle finger way too quickly these days.

(07-31-2017 07:11 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 06:36 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 01:36 PM)levydl Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 12:21 PM)#41 Wrote:  Welcome to urban planning and development. The revitalization of OTR was built on the concept -- it just so happens that less people get religious about giving hipsters money to rehab condos and apartments or start new bars & restaurants and they do about stadiums. We gave taxpayer money to a sex toy company to build downtown (who says Cincinnati is conservative) and a medical testing company to move out to Madisonville. No one moves a finger in the private sector for large construction or big projects unless the other hand is in the taxpayer's pocket.

Me? I'm sick of paying for things I won't use (from bike trails I'll never ride on to streetcars that go nowhere) -- the government is just going to waste this money anyway, so it may well be wasted on something I'll enjoy and use. Meanwhile, at least Uncle Carl is willing to put up over 50% of the proposed cost -- that's a nice change of pace for things around here.

I normally like these deeply cynical takes, but this is all wrong. Bike trails and the streetcar are wastes, but at the very very very very very least they are public projects. Most everyone agrees that transportation is the government's responsibility, for better or worse (I have a fondness for the anarcho-capitalist model myself, yet it's not well-regarded). But a soccer stadium? This guy was already handed a billion dollars, now he wants the taxpayers to give him $100 mil. more?

And the tax rebates used in the OTR project is a bit different than the Bengals' deal, which increased the sales tax. I surmise that Carl's son wants cash, not a tax scheme. But, in any case, the sex toy company deal was a couple hundred thousand dollars, not a hundred million--size matters (heeheeheehee). The sex toy company also put up a bunch of it's own money, as did the companies that funded 3CDC to redo OTR, so how would Carl III's paying half the cost be different?

The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You said a lot, but I'm going to focus only on GE...

There are 1,400 people currently working in that new GE building at The Banks. They are hiring 400 more this summer. According to GE, the average salary is $79,000. Annual payroll is expected to be $142m. GE gets to keep 85% of Cincinnati's payroll tax, which is roughly $2.5m annually at full employment. The state gave $51m credit. Property taxes were abated. GE is on the hook for 18 years.

Compare that to $100m to a soccer team in a league that is losing money. How many people will they hire?

Also, while you cite Lindner's long-standing commitment to the community, I ask how long have GE jet engines been made in Evendale? What do you suppose the economic impact of that facility is?

As a side note, GE cited the streetcar as one reason why they chose The Banks.

While I agree with your sentiment about corporate welfare, I would pick GE over soccer 100 times over and twice on Sunday.

Well said, and as TubaCat has posted earlier, sports venues have relatively poor return on investment with regard to the amount of public money spent on them.
UC has been able to essentially rebuild 5th/3rd and greatly enhance Nippert funded largely by donations. Why don't the Lindner's do the same? Hell, just sell seat licenses. I'm sure all the super duper soccer fans in the area will snap them up like hot cakes. I can see it now, "own a part of the Bailey".

o

I didn't even get into how UC has benefitted from GE's presence. Google it. Research collaboration where GE has invested $100m+. Graduate education programs going back to 1966. Co-ops. UC is getting a $250k 3D metal printer. And they don't ask to use our stadium.

(07-31-2017 08:00 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  I didn't even get into how UC has benefitted from GE's presence. Google it. Research collaboration where GE has invested $100m+. Graduate education programs going back to 1966. Co-ops. UC is getting a $250k 3D metal printer. And they don't ask to use our stadium.

UC is getting a 3D metal printer? Sweet. I guess my machining hobby will go by the wayside once 3D metal printing becomes practical.

(07-31-2017 08:00 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 07:11 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 06:36 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 01:36 PM)levydl Wrote:  I normally like these deeply cynical takes, but this is all wrong. Bike trails and the streetcar are wastes, but at the very very very very very least they are public projects. Most everyone agrees that transportation is the government's responsibility, for better or worse (I have a fondness for the anarcho-capitalist model myself, yet it's not well-regarded). But a soccer stadium? This guy was already handed a billion dollars, now he wants the taxpayers to give him $100 mil. more?

And the tax rebates used in the OTR project is a bit different than the Bengals' deal, which increased the sales tax. I surmise that Carl's son wants cash, not a tax scheme. But, in any case, the sex toy company deal was a couple hundred thousand dollars, not a hundred million--size matters (heeheeheehee). The sex toy company also put up a bunch of it's own money, as did the companies that funded 3CDC to redo OTR, so how would Carl III's paying half the cost be different?

The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You said a lot, but I'm going to focus only on GE...

There are 1,400 people currently working in that new GE building at The Banks. They are hiring 400 more this summer. According to GE, the average salary is $79,000. Annual payroll is expected to be $142m. GE gets to keep 85% of Cincinnati's payroll tax, which is roughly $2.5m annually at full employment. The state gave $51m credit. Property taxes were abated. GE is on the hook for 18 years.

Compare that to $100m to a soccer team in a league that is losing money. How many people will they hire?

Also, while you cite Lindner's long-standing commitment to the community, I ask how long have GE jet engines been made in Evendale? What do you suppose the economic impact of that facility is?

As a side note, GE cited the streetcar as one reason why they chose The Banks.

While I agree with your sentiment about corporate welfare, I would pick GE over soccer 100 times over and twice on Sunday.

Well said, and as TubaCat has posted earlier, sports venues have relatively poor return on investment with regard to the amount of public money spent on them.
UC has been able to essentially rebuild 5th/3rd and greatly enhance Nippert funded largely by donations. Why don't the Lindner's do the same? Hell, just sell seat licenses. I'm sure all the super duper soccer fans in the area will snap them up like hot cakes. I can see it now, "own a part of the Bailey".

o

I didn't even get into how UC has benefitted from GE's presence. Google it. Research collaboration where GE has invested $100m+. Graduate education programs going back to 1966. Co-ops. UC is getting a $250k 3D metal printer. And they don't ask to use our stadium.

AS one of said 1400 working at the banks, I can tell you the impact to Banks lunch crowd has been tremendous. Almost every restaurant at the banks filled with GE employees. Also the city is raking in the parking revenue on what otherwise would be empty spaces in the garage. $80/month X 1400 employees X 12 Months = More money than they had before.

(07-31-2017 03:02 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  I saw today that the MLS collectively loses around $100million/year. Maybe not the wisest long term investment of public money.

link?

I can't believe all the static in this thread over sharing Nippert with FC Cincinnati and producing revenue during a time when the facility would otherwise sit EMPTY.

I just realized that there are only 6 Home Dates on the schedule this coming season--the rest of the time the facility would sit unused.. 6 Home games....6.

And you bi*ch about Paul Brown hosting only 8.

Ridiculous...

If you have a facility that set you back a pretty penny you better use it whenever and wherever you can. Otherwise you are asking that the University simply cater to your vanity.

Dare I say that a lot of posters on this thread regarding their attitudes on Nippert come off sounding a lot like......Mike Brown--with his attitude toward Paul Brown Stadium.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

(08-01-2017 05:22 AM)bctn8n Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 08:00 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 07:11 PM)JackieTreehorn Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 06:36 PM)BearcatsUC Wrote:  

(07-31-2017 02:46 PM)#41 Wrote:  The Wasson Way bike trail is going to cost upwards of $10M; all so that a bunch of upper-middle class dudes in lycra can ride a real bike instead of an exercise bike on my dime. Medpace got ~$15M to build in Madisonville. The Streetcar has cost a (well documented) $150M plus its annual operating expenses. The list goes on, and on, and on. General Electric takes in $120+ BILLION dollars per year in revenue, we still gave them breaks to build at the Banks because the city/county was desperate for someone to come in and occupy the real-estate there. Skip over this project and something dumber / less useful to me personally is going to take the money instead. There's a 0.0% chance Todd Portune & Denise Driehaus send tax money back to me, so may as well get a place to watch my soccer & get out of UC's hair in the process.

And you want Cynical takes? I'll drop another one for you: if we're going to engage in ridiculous corporate welfare and fund ridiculous projects, I'd rather fund projects from people like Uncle Carl (who have deep family ties to the region and are active in local philanthropy & places like UC) than shipping the money off to Europe for streetcars that break down or to GE's corporate headquarters in New York, etc. Part of what's wrong and sucks in this country now is that there simply aren't enough people with ties to a community / region who feel personally connected or indebted to an area.

As long as they aren't seeking to raise an additional tax on my property or what I buy, I'm good with giving FCC money for a stadium, so long as 1.) The taxpayers don't have to own it or maintain it like they do with Paul Brown and GABP and 2.) There are guarantees of fixed cost (no ridiculous "we need more money" like they went through building Paul Brown). From what I've read on Tax Increment Financing, it sounds like a win-win; soccer field gets built, money that is generated on surrounding area tax increases goes to fund.

You said a lot, but I'm going to focus only on GE...

There are 1,400 people currently working in that new GE building at The Banks. They are hiring 400 more this summer. According to GE, the average salary is $79,000. Annual payroll is expected to be $142m. GE gets to keep 85% of Cincinnati's payroll tax, which is roughly $2.5m annually at full employment. The state gave $51m credit. Property taxes were abated. GE is on the hook for 18 years.

Compare that to $100m to a soccer team in a league that is losing money. How many people will they hire?

Also, while you cite Lindner's long-standing commitment to the community, I ask how long have GE jet engines been made in Evendale? What do you suppose the economic impact of that facility is?

As a side note, GE cited the streetcar as one reason why they chose The Banks.

While I agree with your sentiment about corporate welfare, I would pick GE over soccer 100 times over and twice on Sunday.

Well said, and as TubaCat has posted earlier, sports venues have relatively poor return on investment with regard to the amount of public money spent on them.
UC has been able to essentially rebuild 5th/3rd and greatly enhance Nippert funded largely by donations. Why don't the Lindner's do the same? Hell, just sell seat licenses. I'm sure all the super duper soccer fans in the area will snap them up like hot cakes. I can see it now, "own a part of the Bailey".

o

I didn't even get into how UC has benefitted from GE's presence. Google it. Research collaboration where GE has invested $100m+. Graduate education programs going back to 1966. Co-ops. UC is getting a $250k 3D metal printer. And they don't ask to use our stadium.

AS one of said 1400 working at the banks, I can tell you the impact to Banks lunch crowd has been tremendous. Almost every restaurant at the banks filled with GE employees. Also the city is raking in the parking revenue on what otherwise would be empty spaces in the garage. $80/month X 1400 employees X 12 Months = More money than they had before.

Always a good thing.

I love GE. They are paying my daughter's co-op salary, which greatly cuts down the amount of tuition money she needs to borrow from Dad.