I don't see it so much as an end times or WWIII issue. I see it as a human rights issue. We have placed two groups in an untenable situation and then complain because they can't resolve it. Respect for human rights demands that we help them find a way out. Right now, killing each other is the only way that either has to survive.

(12-30-2016 04:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't see it so much as an end times or WWIII issue. I see it as a human rights issue. We have placed two groups in an untenable situation and then complain because they can't resolve it. Respect for human rights demands that we help them find a way out. Right now, killing each other is the only way that either has to survive.

But why them, and why us?

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:23 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Why does Obama hate Israeli. Why are progressives pro Palestine... and anti Israel? I don't understand. Serious question.

I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

And if /when we see the second holocaust unfolding before our eyes in real time on our tv's tablets and phones, we sit idly by? Do you have any idea how outnumbered the Israelis are? Or how out-resourced without assistance from the outside world?

(12-30-2016 03:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

I doubt it. Why would the world get involved? Who, aside from ME countries and Russia, would care if we stopped caring?

All of Europe, especially Germany? They kinda have a certain responsibility and pretty thick vein of guilt when it comes to another holocaust.

(12-30-2016 04:55 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 04:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't see it so much as an end times or WWIII issue. I see it as a human rights issue. We have placed two groups in an untenable situation and then complain because they can't resolve it. Respect for human rights demands that we help them find a way out. Right now, killing each other is the only way that either has to survive.

But why them, and why us?

Why them is because we (the West and the Arabs) basically screwed them.

Why us is because somebody has to take a leadership role to make something useful happen. My idea would be.
1) Egypt gives up Sinai east of 33E. Right now their economy is in shambles and they can't afford to maintain law and order in Sinai. There has to be a price at which they can be bought. Some major economic development, plus keeping full control of the canal, should yield a formula for doing so.
2) Palestinians get Sinai between 33E and 34E. This is basically the ancestral Philistia. It will take some money to make it habitable. But with sea water desalinization and infrastructure installation and solar power, it can be a huge improvement over the West Bank and Gaza. And oil and diver tourism in the south give it significant upside. Don't force people to move, but enough should move voluntarily to solve the problem.
3) Israel gets everything between 34E and the Jordan. Now they have defensible borders and control of at least one side of Bab el Mandeb (with the basically friendly Saudis controlling the other). They also get some oil and tourism upside.
One thing I'd do is look at putting a couple of dams along the Wadi al-Arish, and pumping desalinized water up to fill the reservoirs. That would open a lot of mid-Sinai to agriculture and settlement. Probably make the centerline of the wadi the border between Israel and Palestine up to the headwaters.
4) Do the Tom Clancy thing and make Jerusalem an international city. Create an international corridor to the Jordan, and put an international airport in the corridor, so that people can come in from all over without having to go through Israel.
5) Also the Tom Clancy thing, Arabs agree to recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for free access to Jerusalem.

Not cheap, but probably cheaper than any alternative. And the West and the Arab world probably owe it to the Jews and Palestinians.

(12-30-2016 03:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

I doubt it. Why would the world get involved? Who, aside from ME countries and Russia, would care if we stopped caring?

Because when Israel turns Damascus and/or Cairo and/or Tehran and/or Riyadh and/or Amman and/or Baghdad (depending on who is attacking them) into a glowing crater the reprisals from the illogical Muslims aren't going to be limited to Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv.

And this is precisely what that lunatic fringe is clamoring for, to drag us and the entire Western World into one final all out war. They're practically begging us for it, some individuals actually have begged us for it.

(12-30-2016 05:04 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:23 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Why does Obama hate Israeli. Why are progressives pro Palestine... and anti Israel? I don't understand. Serious question.

I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

And if /when we see the second holocaust unfolding before our eyes in real time on our tv's tablets and phones, we sit idly by? Do you have any idea how outnumbered the Israelis are? Or how out-resourced without assistance from the outside world?

That's not the American givernment's problem. It's the Israeli givernment's problem, and it's the German givernment's problem (whether or not they want to admit it), but it's not an American problem.

If you want to save human lives, there are cheaper/more effective ways to save lives, both at home and abroad.

For example, someone in the world starves to death every ~8 seconds - and that's just starvation.

(12-30-2016 05:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 04:55 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 04:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't see it so much as an end times or WWIII issue. I see it as a human rights issue. We have placed two groups in an untenable situation and then complain because they can't resolve it. Respect for human rights demands that we help them find a way out. Right now, killing each other is the only way that either has to survive.

But why them, and why us?

Why them is because we (the West and the Arabs) basically screwed them.

Why us is because somebody has to take a leadership role to make something useful happen. My idea would be.
1) Egypt gives up Sinai east of 33E. Right now their economy is in shambles and they can't afford to maintain law and order in Sinai. There has to be a price at which they can be bought. Some major economic development, plus keeping full control of the canal, should yield a formula for doing so.
2) Palestinians get Sinai between 33E and 34E. This is basically the ancestral Philistia. It will take some money to make it habitable. But with sea water desalinization and infrastructure installation and solar power, it can be a huge improvement over the West Bank and Gaza. And oil and diver tourism in the south give it significant upside. Don't force people to move, but enough should move voluntarily to solve the problem.
3) Israel gets everything between 34E and the Jordan. Now they have defensible borders and control of at least one side of Bab el Mandeb (with the basically friendly Saudis controlling the other). They also get some oil and tourism upside.
One thing I'd do is look at putting a couple of dams along the Wadi al-Arish, and pumping desalinized water up to fill the reservoirs. That would open a lot of mid-Sinai to agriculture and settlement. Probably make the centerline of the wadi the border between Israel and Palestine up to the headwaters.
4) Do the Tom Clancy thing and make Jerusalem an international city. Create an international corridor to the Jordan, and put an international airport in the corridor, so that people can come in from all over without having to go through Israel.
5) Also the Tom Clancy thing, Arabs agree to recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for free access to Jerusalem.

Not cheap, but probably cheaper than any alternative. And the West and the Arab world probably owe it to the Jews and Palestinians.

The Americans screwed the Israelis?

I don't know whose side of the war your family was on, but mine fought the Nazi fascist death machine in Europe and the Japanese emperor death machine in the pacific.

To pretend like the countless America deaths and sacrifices didn't happen is absolutely offensive. And, if you're THAT out of touch with reality, and are somehow unable to appreciate this country's sacrifices while you're here, go to China. Even after 70 years under communist rule, it's been my experience that the old Chinese still remember both Axis war atrocities and the sacrifices of American fighter pilots.

(12-30-2016 05:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

I doubt it. Why would the world get involved? Who, aside from ME countries and Russia, would care if we stopped caring?

All of Europe, especially Germany? They kinda have a certain responsibility and pretty thick vein of guilt when it comes to another holocaust.

The English, French, Scandinavian countries, and Eastern European countries would have a thick vein of guilt? Why? Remind me again why the folks who were so desperate to stop the Nazi war machine that they were willing to flood their own cities and towns, causing countless deaths would feel guilty. Or please elaborate as to why the countries that were desperate to stop German tanks that they charged tanks on horseback ... just to slow them down should feel guilty.

That's like saying the Chinese should feel guilty about Japanese war atrocities. They shouldn't, and they don't.

I'll give you the Germans and possibly Italians, but I'd be amazed if either would lift a finger. When's the last time Isreal was saved by German/Italian intervention w/o the prodding on the United States?

(12-30-2016 06:41 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:04 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

And if /when we see the second holocaust unfolding before our eyes in real time on our tv's tablets and phones, we sit idly by? Do you have any idea how outnumbered the Israelis are? Or how out-resourced without assistance from the outside world?

That's not the American givernment's problem. It's the Israeli givernment's problem, and it's the German givernment's problem (whether or not they want to admit it), but it's not an American problem.

If you want to save human lives, there are cheaper/more effective ways to save lives, both at home and abroad.

For example, someone in the world starves to death every ~8 seconds - and that's just starvation.

Uhhh, perhaps not the givernments (sic) problem, but really?

You, or anyone you know, would simply turn a blind eye to another Holocaust like war on ANYONE and simply say- "not my problem"?!? Because it's cheaper to feed someone in Haiti or wherever?

You really can't be serious with this. We, as in the United States- America, do ALL of these things all the time. What we won't do is stand by and watch another attempt at the extinction of an entire Religion. Based, solely on their religion. Dahhaaam.

(12-30-2016 06:55 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:10 PM)JMUDunk Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

I doubt it. Why would the world get involved? Who, aside from ME countries and Russia, would care if we stopped caring?

All of Europe, especially Germany? They kinda have a certain responsibility and pretty thick vein of guilt when it comes to another holocaust.

The English, French, Scandinavian countries, and Eastern European countries would have a thick vein of guilt? Why? Remind me again why the folks who were so desperate to stop the Nazi war machine that they were willing to flood their own cities and towns, causing countless deaths would feel guilty. Or please elaborate as to why the countries that were desperate to stop German tanks that they charged tanks on horseback ... just to slow them down should feel guilty.

That's like saying the Chinese should feel guilty about Japanese war atrocities. They shouldn't, and they don't.

I'll give you the Germans and possibly Italians, but I'd be amazed if either would lift a finger. When's the last time Isreal was saved by German/Italian intervention w/o the prodding on the United States?

Uhhh, what? I'll break it down for you, seems a struggle...

You asked "who would care".

All of Europe.

Especially Germany, as they have a certain responsibility and a thick vein of guilt.

do you honestly believe Germany, France, or England would simply sit aside and watch Israel be overrun by her neighbors? Do you have ANY understanding of the sacrifices that were made to stop this crap the last time it was commenced? Any?

(12-30-2016 06:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 05:15 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 04:55 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 04:18 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I don't see it so much as an end times or WWIII issue. I see it as a human rights issue. We have placed two groups in an untenable situation and then complain because they can't resolve it. Respect for human rights demands that we help them find a way out. Right now, killing each other is the only way that either has to survive.

But why them, and why us?

Why them is because we (the West and the Arabs) basically screwed them.
Why us is because somebody has to take a leadership role to make something useful happen. My idea would be.
1) Egypt gives up Sinai east of 33E. Right now their economy is in shambles and they can't afford to maintain law and order in Sinai. There has to be a price at which they can be bought. Some major economic development, plus keeping full control of the canal, should yield a formula for doing so.
2) Palestinians get Sinai between 33E and 34E. This is basically the ancestral Philistia. It will take some money to make it habitable. But with sea water desalinization and infrastructure installation and solar power, it can be a huge improvement over the West Bank and Gaza. And oil and diver tourism in the south give it significant upside. Don't force people to move, but enough should move voluntarily to solve the problem.
3) Israel gets everything between 34E and the Jordan. Now they have defensible borders and control of at least one side of Bab el Mandeb (with the basically friendly Saudis controlling the other). They also get some oil and tourism upside.
One thing I'd do is look at putting a couple of dams along the Wadi al-Arish, and pumping desalinized water up to fill the reservoirs. That would open a lot of mid-Sinai to agriculture and settlement. Probably make the centerline of the wadi the border between Israel and Palestine up to the headwaters.
4) Do the Tom Clancy thing and make Jerusalem an international city. Create an international corridor to the Jordan, and put an international airport in the corridor, so that people can come in from all over without having to go through Israel.
5) Also the Tom Clancy thing, Arabs agree to recognize Israel's right to exist in exchange for free access to Jerusalem.
Not cheap, but probably cheaper than any alternative. And the West and the Arab world probably owe it to the Jews and Palestinians.

The Americans screwed the Israelis?
I don't know whose side of the war your family was on, but mine fought the Nazi fascist death machine in Europe and the Japanese emperor death machine in the pacific.
To pretend like the countless America deaths and sacrifices didn't happen is absolutely offensive. And, if you're THAT out of touch with reality, and are somehow unable to appreciate this country's sacrifices while you're here, go to China. Even after 70 years under communist rule, it's been my experience that the old Chinese still remember both Axis war atrocities and the sacrifices of American fighter pilots.

Wow. Just wow.

Is it too much to ask that you respond to what I actually write instead of conjuring up all these straw men?

(12-31-2016 07:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 06:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  The Americans screwed the Israelis?
I don't know whose side of the war your family was on, but mine fought the Nazi fascist death machine in Europe and the Japanese emperor death machine in the pacific.
To pretend like the countless America deaths and sacrifices didn't happen is absolutely offensive. And, if you're THAT out of touch with reality, and are somehow unable to appreciate this country's sacrifices while you're here, go to China. Even after 70 years under communist rule, it's been my experience that the old Chinese still remember both Axis war atrocities and the sacrifices of American fighter pilots.

Wow. Just wow.

Is it too much to ask that you respond to what I actually write instead of conjuring up all these straw men?

Orangie's response was rather maniacal. I wonder if he forgot his meds?

"Why is Obama anti-Semitic".......if you look at is actions/inactions while in office be it screwing the Jews, giving the Iranians money an leaving the door open for nukes, all but ignoring the plight of a near Christian genocide in multiple Middle Eastern countries - he sure leaves one with the impression that his upbringing with a heavy dose of Islam has left him with leanings to that religion. What else would one conclude??

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel...SKBN14J0L0

Britain, who voted for the resolution, still calls Kerry's comments ridiculous.

(12-31-2016 09:34 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 07:25 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 06:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  The Americans screwed the Israelis?
I don't know whose side of the war your family was on, but mine fought the Nazi fascist death machine in Europe and the Japanese emperor death machine in the pacific.
To pretend like the countless America deaths and sacrifices didn't happen is absolutely offensive. And, if you're THAT out of touch with reality, and are somehow unable to appreciate this country's sacrifices while you're here, go to China. Even after 70 years under communist rule, it's been my experience that the old Chinese still remember both Axis war atrocities and the sacrifices of American fighter pilots.

Wow. Just wow.

Is it too much to ask that you respond to what I actually write instead of conjuring up all these straw men?

Orangie's response was rather maniacal. I wonder if he forgot his meds?

It was probably the hottest buffalo sauce Zaxby's had that made him post like that.

Here is a good rcp article on the Obama administrations Anti Israel bias..

Article

Kerry has never sermonized for so long about his plan to solve the Syrian crisis that has led to some 500,000 deaths or the vast migrant crisis that has nearly wrecked the European Union.

No one in this administration has shown as much anger about the many thousands who have been killed and jailed in the Castro brothers' Cuba, much less about the current Stone Age conditions in Venezuela or the nightmarish government of President Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines, an ally nation.

President Obama did not champion the cause of the oppressed during the Green Revolution of 2009 in Iran. Did Kerry and Obama become so outraged after Russia occupied South Ossetia, Crimea and eastern Ukraine?

Our policy is so subservient to that of Israel that an even-handed approach is seen as anti-Israeli.

It's a disgrace.