(12-29-2016 10:25 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I really, really can't understand the Lefts hatred toward Israel and have so much love for anything Muslim. Jews aren't throwing gays from 5 story buildings or decapitating them. What is it? How can they be so ignorant. Does Satan have them that much in his power? Or is it group think, where a Libturd says certain things about Israel and everyone of them just follow like ducks in a row?

Wow, oh wow.

I think Mach nailed it, perhaps inadvertently. It's unfair to those who think everything should be split exactly equally. It's not fair for Israel to have a stronger army and better weapons than the PLO. When Israel counterattacks after PLO missile or other attacks, they kill more Palestinians than the Palestinian attacks killed Israelis. That's somehow proof that the Israelis are engaging in ethnic cleansing and targeting civilians. If only we could require Israel to give half the IDF to the PLO, and half their income to the Palestinians, then it would be fair. Remember, they didn't build it.

(12-30-2016 12:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-29-2016 10:25 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I really, really can't understand the Lefts hatred toward Israel and have so much love for anything Muslim. Jews aren't throwing gays from 5 story buildings or decapitating them. What is it? How can they be so ignorant. Does Satan have them that much in his power? Or is it group think, where a Libturd says certain things about Israel and everyone of them just follow like ducks in a row?

Wow, oh wow.

I think Mach nailed it, perhaps inadvertently. It's unfair to those who think everything should be split exactly equally. It's not fair for Israel to have a stronger army and better weapons than the PLO. When Israel counterattacks after PLO missile or other attacks, they kill more Palestinians than the Palestinian attacks killed Israelis. That's somehow proof that the Israelis are engaging in ethnic cleansing and targeting civilians. If only we could require Israel to give half the IDF to the PLO, and half their income to the Palestinians, then it would be fair. Remember, they didn't build it.

You seem to be dismissing the fact that what Israel did was deemed illegal in the 1980's and again now.

(12-30-2016 01:47 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 12:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-29-2016 10:25 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I really, really can't understand the Lefts hatred toward Israel and have so much love for anything Muslim. Jews aren't throwing gays from 5 story buildings or decapitating them. What is it? How can they be so ignorant. Does Satan have them that much in his power? Or is it group think, where a Libturd says certain things about Israel and everyone of them just follow like ducks in a row?
Wow, oh wow.

I think Mach nailed it, perhaps inadvertently. It's unfair to those who think everything should be split exactly equally. It's not fair for Israel to have a stronger army and better weapons than the PLO. When Israel counterattacks after PLO missile or other attacks, they kill more Palestinians than the Palestinian attacks killed Israelis. That's somehow proof that the Israelis are engaging in ethnic cleansing and targeting civilians. If only we could require Israel to give half the IDF to the PLO, and half their income to the Palestinians, then it would be fair. Remember, they didn't build it.

You seem to be dismissing the fact that what Israel did was deemed illegal in the 1980's and again now.

Israel does what it has to do to survive. It's actions are "illegal" only when judged by a standard which would say that the only legal action for them to take would be national suicide. Any law that would require that is entirely unjust and unenforceable.

And Israel's acts have been judged "illegal" only in highly biased forums.

By the way, Israel has done what it did as a matter of self defense against actions by the Palestinians. Make your best argument that what the Palestinians have done is not illegal. Or are you willing to condemn only one side? The Palestinians are instigators, not victims.

For the record, I see both sides and condemn neither. They have been placed by outside forces into a situation where neither can survive by confining itself to "legal" activities.

(12-24-2016 09:23 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Why does Obama hate Israeli. Why are progressives pro Palestine... and anti Israel? I don't understand. Serious question.

I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

(12-30-2016 02:25 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 01:47 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 12:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-29-2016 10:25 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I really, really can't understand the Lefts hatred toward Israel and have so much love for anything Muslim. Jews aren't throwing gays from 5 story buildings or decapitating them. What is it? How can they be so ignorant. Does Satan have them that much in his power? Or is it group think, where a Libturd says certain things about Israel and everyone of them just follow like ducks in a row?
Wow, oh wow.

I think Mach nailed it, perhaps inadvertently. It's unfair to those who think everything should be split exactly equally. It's not fair for Israel to have a stronger army and better weapons than the PLO. When Israel counterattacks after PLO missile or other attacks, they kill more Palestinians than the Palestinian attacks killed Israelis. That's somehow proof that the Israelis are engaging in ethnic cleansing and targeting civilians. If only we could require Israel to give half the IDF to the PLO, and half their income to the Palestinians, then it would be fair. Remember, they didn't build it.

You seem to be dismissing the fact that what Israel did was deemed illegal in the 1980's and again now.

Israel does what it has to do to survive. It's actions are "illegal" only when judged by a standard which would say that the only legal action for them to take would be national suicide. Any law that would require that is entirely unjust and unenforceable.

And Israel's acts have been judged "illegal" only in highly biased forums.

By the way, Israel has done what it did as a matter of self defense against actions by the Palestinians. Make your best argument that what the Palestinians have done is not illegal. Or are you willing to condemn only one side? The Palestinians are instigators, not victims.

For the record, I see both sides and condemn neither. They have been placed by outside forces into a situation where neither can survive by confining itself to "legal" activities.

Both sides have committed autricities, and neither side has truly clean hands.

You can argue that the Palestinians are doing what they have to do to survive as well. Where the Israelis are fighting to protect their homes and nation, the Palestinians are fighting to recover their homes and nation.

This is a no win scenario.

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:23 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Why does Obama hate Israeli. Why are progressives pro Palestine... and anti Israel? I don't understand. Serious question.

I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

(12-30-2016 03:21 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Both sides have committed autricities, and neither side has truly clean hands.
You can argue that the Palestinians are doing what they have to do to survive as well. Where the Israelis are fighting to protect their homes and nation, the Palestinians are fighting to recover their homes and nation.
This is a no win scenario.

I've said repeatedly that both sides are doing what they have to do to survive.

It is a no win scenario without bringing additional territory into play. Present day Israel is the historic home of the Jews. The historic home of the Palestinians is Sinai. That suggests the solution to me.

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:23 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Why does Obama hate Israeli. Why are progressives pro Palestine... and anti Israel? I don't understand. Serious question.

I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.
[/quote]


Really? Then why did we get involved in WWI or WWII, or Korea? Or Viet Nam? We didn't think we'd get involved there either. It will start there, believe me, we'll get sucked into it whether we side with Israel or not.

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:23 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Why does Obama hate Israeli. Why are progressives pro Palestine... and anti Israel? I don't understand. Serious question.

I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

(12-30-2016 03:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:21 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  Both sides have committed autricities, and neither side has truly clean hands.
You can argue that the Palestinians are doing what they have to do to survive as well. Where the Israelis are fighting to protect their homes and nation, the Palestinians are fighting to recover their homes and nation.
This is a no win scenario.

I've said repeatedly that both sides are doing what they have to do to survive.

It is a no win scenario without bringing additional territory into play. Present day Israel is the historic home of the Jews. The historic home of the Palestinians is Sinai. That suggests the solution to me.

I didn't read all of the thread, but aside from possibly being more pessimistic about the prospect for peace than you, I agree w/ the above post.

(12-30-2016 03:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-24-2016 09:23 PM)No Bull Wrote:  Why does Obama hate Israeli. Why are progressives pro Palestine... and anti Israel? I don't understand. Serious question.

I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

I doubt it. Why would the world get involved? Who, aside from ME countries and Russia, would care if we stopped caring?

(12-30-2016 03:43 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Really? Then why did we get involved in WWI or WWII, or Korea? Or Viet Nam? We didn't think we'd get involved there either. It will start there, believe me, we'll get sucked into it whether we side with Israel or not.
[/quote]

Vietnam was a mistake, and the Workd Wars happened because major world super powers attached each other and then us. That's a radically different scenario than the current one in the Middle East.

For one the worlds powers are taking sides. Who would have thought that killing the Archduke Ferdinand would have started WWI? Because of countries taking sides and being forced into the war. Pacts are good but for the major dealers (world powers) they get sucked into wars you don't want because you have to get involved in petty arguments ensuing in major wars.

(12-30-2016 03:53 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  For one the worlds powers are taking sides. Who would have thought that killing the Archduke Ferdinand would have started WWI? Because of countries taking sides and being forced into the war. Pacts are good but for the major dealers (world powers) they get sucked into wars you don't want because you have to get involved in petty arguments ensuing in major wars.

The world doesn't have the tangled alliance problem that it did in ~1915. The analogy isn't a good one.

(12-30-2016 03:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:17 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  I'm neither Obama, nor am I a progressive (unless you want to get really, really loose with definitions), but I think that it's worth pointing out that we have no dog in that fight - at least we shouldn't. We don't owe either side anything.

I'm a firm believer in cutting Isreal loose. We gain nothing from the alliance, and it costs a lot of money/resources, and it crates a lot of problems.

To clarify, I'm not pro-Israeli and I'm not pro-Palestinian. I don't care if either or both states survive or fail. I just don't want to keep paying for it.

At least when we prop up the Iraqis and the Saudis, we get oil.

Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

I doubt it. Why would the world get involved? Who, aside from ME countries and Russia, would care if we stopped caring?

Because when Israel turns Damascus and/or Cairo and/or Tehran and/or Riyadh and/or Amman and/or Baghdad (depending on who is attacking them) into a glowing crater the reprisals from the illogical Muslims aren't going to be limited to Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv.

(12-30-2016 03:58 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:53 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  For one the worlds powers are taking sides. Who would have thought that killing the Archduke Ferdinand would have started WWI? Because of countries taking sides and being forced into the war. Pacts are good but for the major dealers (world powers) they get sucked into wars you don't want because you have to get involved in petty arguments ensuing in major wars.

The world doesn't have the tangled alliance problem that it did in ~1915. The analogy isn't a good one.

You think?

In that I disagree.

(12-30-2016 03:59 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:58 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:53 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  For one the worlds powers are taking sides. Who would have thought that killing the Archduke Ferdinand would have started WWI? Because of countries taking sides and being forced into the war. Pacts are good but for the major dealers (world powers) they get sucked into wars you don't want because you have to get involved in petty arguments ensuing in major wars.

The world doesn't have the tangled alliance problem that it did in ~1915. The analogy isn't a good one.

You think?

In that I disagree.

If the US walked away, who do you think would get involved?
I'll give you the Middle East, and Iran would probably buy Russian support. Who else?

(12-30-2016 03:59 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:48 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:45 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:35 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 03:27 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  Perhaps you're right but the way I see it is that if the U.S. decides to wash their hands entirely of Israel that it will very likely be the beginning of WWIII. The only thing that is keeping the Muslim countries in the region from going all out on this one solitary country is they know (before Oblunders intentional blunder) that we had their back. This is the beginning of the end and pretty much what we've read in the Bible in Revelation.

I don't think that the fighting would spread out of that part of the Middle East.

I think that the US should give thoughts and prayers, but pursue its own interest on the ground. We have our own economic, political, and military problems to worry about.

Yes it would. When the choice is between being driven into the sea or going nuclear Israel will go nuclear and at that point everybody is involved.

I doubt it. Why would the world get involved? Who, aside from ME countries and Russia, would care if we stopped caring?

Because when Israel turns Damascus and/or Cairo and/or Tehran and/or Riyadh and/or Amman and/or Baghdad (depending on who is attacking them) into a glowing crater the reprisals from the illogical Muslims aren't going to be limited to Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv.

And they don't want to kill us now?

And, ask yourself, why are they so radicalized? Why do they hate us? It's more than just being a non-Muslim country. There are plenty of those that they ignore - even major ones.

And don't take my post the wrong way. Muslim terrorists are bad, and they are in the wrong, not America. However, we *are* paying a price for supporting Israel, and I don't see any appreciable return on that investment. American dollars are being spent, and American blood is being spilled, and I very passionately believe that those two things should not happen lightly.

(12-30-2016 01:47 PM)Fitbud Wrote:  

(12-30-2016 12:24 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(12-29-2016 10:25 PM)olliebaba Wrote:  I really, really can't understand the Lefts hatred toward Israel and have so much love for anything Muslim. Jews aren't throwing gays from 5 story buildings or decapitating them. What is it? How can they be so ignorant. Does Satan have them that much in his power? Or is it group think, where a Libturd says certain things about Israel and everyone of them just follow like ducks in a row?

Wow, oh wow.

I think Mach nailed it, perhaps inadvertently. It's unfair to those who think everything should be split exactly equally. It's not fair for Israel to have a stronger army and better weapons than the PLO. When Israel counterattacks after PLO missile or other attacks, they kill more Palestinians than the Palestinian attacks killed Israelis. That's somehow proof that the Israelis are engaging in ethnic cleansing and targeting civilians. If only we could require Israel to give half the IDF to the PLO, and half their income to the Palestinians, then it would be fair. Remember, they didn't build it.

You seem to be dismissing the fact that what Israel did was deemed illegal in the 1980's and again now.

"Deemed Illegal". By whom, exactly? That same group of do-nothing, antisemites that have passed something like ONE resolution condemning the mass murder and true ethnic cleansing, chemical attacks on civilians and whatever other atrocities taking place daily in Syria? Do you know how many "condemnations" have been voted on in recent years and how many of them were done to bash Israel?

Something like 50% (ain' looking). It's a wholly useless body of the chattering class and they should just shed the veil of any objectivity, pass yet another resolution "really, really condemning Israel in the strongest terms for even existing" call it a ten year resolution and head on home.
Free up some parking in Manhattan.